Millercarbon's Mega Moab Mod Meander

bullitt5094, Ulf would be a much bigger project. Mine with the new parts will barely fit back in. Pretty sure a little cutting will be called for. My bet would be Eric follows the same pattern and you will find yours behind whichever driver is across from the terminals on the back.  

I have never seriously considered active because every time it runs into the stone wall of reality. Active means more amps, more power cords, more interconnects, more speaker cables. Every single one of these incredibly important they be done right. It just seems way too easy to give up more than you gain, and that is even before considering money. The parts for this will be almost $2k. The improvement should be staggering. But $2k will not be enough to cover even one good amp if I went active. A good thought experiment. But there is a reason we almost never see anyone doing this at a high level.  

So don't let imaginary perfection hold you back from making real progress. Even just replacing the resistors in there would no doubt be a big improvement. They are relatively inexpensive too- and might actually fit! ;)

@rixthetrick, thanks, very nice work you have done. Oh those chocolate looking Duelunds.

How do they sound for rap? 

Chuck the sound will change (improve over time) as the caps settle in. 
I know there is a whole camp out there who have their opinion on that however that's what Bill mentioned in our conversations and I found him to be correct on that.

I agree with the concept of what you're saying Chuck, but in reality, most Porsche tinkerers have tuner shops do the upgrades of suspension, roll cages, etc. I don't know of many audio "tuners" out there, heck, there are hardly any repair shops.

You doing your own lab work is great, and there is a small number of audiophiles who want to get their hands this dirty. I am surprised there isn't a business out there seeking to upgrade crossovers and drivers in speakers, SS components, etc.

If the manufacturers can economically improve the sound, I would think they would want to. Once you start spending more on the product, you have to charge more, and the marketing positioning changes. What you are doing is providing the free labor and paying more for the parts. It's like that car show Wheeler Dealers where they try to make money fixing and improving used cars and selling them at a profit. When they do the summaries at the end of the show, they never appropriately value all the time spent by the mechanic, and even the main guy's time hunting around for various parts.

Just like older Porsches typically command more money for originality, I wonder what the market is for homemade upgrades on audio. Now, if they came from a manufacturer, that would be another conversation.

rushfan71 yes I am sure they will! Ted Denney tells me it is time not power level that soaks and equilibrates dielectrics, so just leave on 24/7 for a week. The Melody blew a tube last week, have been running it on an old spare backup set, might just leave it one and see what happens. At least the first few days anyway, I am off this weekend and next Mon/Tues.  

Great news! DHL notified me my Townshend Pods are out for delivery! I will have them today! Thank you John Hannant for getting them out so fast! 

Was thinking the crossovers would have to go in without, then add Pods later. Now it will all be in one fell swoop! Yes!!  

sokogear, I am working on another project in tandem with this one. That one in some respects is actually ahead of this one. What I mean, it has passed proof of concept. It has been done. It works. The challenge now is to figure out how to make it cost effective, to sell at a profit and still be good value, and of course to be something people can actually use. 

Because yes there is a skill level, and there is time. There was a time we had Dynaco and Speakerlab and even today we have some kits people can get a lot for their money if they are willing and able to turn a screwdriver and solder. That is about the level we are talking. That is the way I started, building a Dynaco ST400 in High School.  

This current project, everything all-in is well over $2k. Probably close to $3k if you count the BDR, Mats, and Pods. Some of this like BDR was already here just sitting around left over but you get the idea. One guy on FB was wanting me to make him one- until I said $2k just in parts! 

BUT this is more a learning curve thing than an actual problem. The learning curve is what all us who have done mods know very well, that manufacturers always use the cheapest possible parts they can get away with! This means the guy with mere soldering skills can easily do a $5k or even $10k upgrade for $1k worth of parts. We who have done this know this. Problem is hardly anyone else gets it. 

That is my big motivation for doing this. Already know very well these punch way above their weight even in stock form. With this crossover upgrade, forget about it! Mine are 194 & 195. There are probably by now 200 pair out there. Ten percent market penetration would be huge, but even that would only be 20. So whatever I do will be with the thought in mind there could be a market for this- of a whopping 10-20 customers. Maybe. 

Michael Spallone does something like this. He figured out a great cap and diode mod for Synergistic Active Shielding MPC. I know, I bought it. Because even though I can DIY he is the man who knows which parts really sound the best. So it would be like that. IF I can get the wiring figured out AND find some really primo wire AND figure out how to deliver something your average motivated screwdriver solderer can handle... but yeah you are right. Any way you slice it, huge amount of work to sell only a small number, just not worth it. 

That is the challenge all these manufacturers face. Eric's real genius was to figure out a better way of using the same parts to deliver sound at a level no one can touch at that price point. If he made them like mine, even though he would pay maybe $1k for the parts that cost me $2k that would still wind up being $3k for him to profit. At that price people look and see Encore has more drivers. There we are back at the learning curve, they see more and better drivers, crossover components are hidden inside, the average customer just does not and probably will not ever get it. 

Oh well. We do. Man am I stoked for this weekend!!!

@flynnrd - as you posted directly under a comment by petg60, (I’m guessing it wasn’t a question for me, but the timing was too good to give up)
I just went and played Faithless - Flyin Hi.
Okay it’s British rap, and it’s mixed like it’s for audiophiles, and it’s not overly crass or vulgar - and I just love that track on my system.

I love the surge, the pull, away from the curb
The way the sound-reverberate
As I push my foot down, accelerate straight out of town
And with the help of James Brown on the tape
I reach escape velocity on the M3
Transcend my physical boundaries
Blend with the mystic reality
And finally, I’m free
Traveling instantaneously through space
’Till I will reach that place within me
That has no trace of a beginning, has no end
Where I both receive and send
My soul fills the universe end to end
And I feel myself heal and mend
My mind is still and I’m floating
Look down, throttle’s still wide open
Inner serenity comfort me, past junction twenty three
On my way back, full chat and I’m flying
I won’t crack and I’ll never stop trying
I’m flying, I’ll never stop trying
I’m flying....

He’s in a 350Z, but it works for Porsche too :-) Peace brov!

@millercarbon - oh the mortgage crack was a good one. I won’t be owning a car until it’s paid off, well so long as my employer keeps buying me new GMC Sierra trucks to drive ;-P

If you can just do two mortgage payments a month, plus however much you can scrape together at the end of a year of clipping coupons eating beans never going anywhere and never buying anything, then in just 6 or 7 years when the mortgage is paid off you will be absolutely astounded with how easy it is to buy really good capacitors.

DHL has delivered the Pods. I have just about decided to stay up however long it takes tonight to get everything fastened and glued down. If I can do that tonight then all I have to do tomorrow is drill and tap BDR, solder, paint, attach the Pods, cut a brace to mount the Pods, cut the Moab braces so this thing will actually fit in there, hook it up, and put the woofer back. That’s all. No problem. Right?

Mr. Miller , thanks for your thread . I love Porsches and I’m considering a pair of Tektons . My Porsche memories are only that of a race fan , but they were some fun times . Number 1 was watching Mark Donahue drive the Sunoco Porsche 917-30 at Laguna Seca . Number 2 is the picture my buddy snapped as I helped Al Holbert push his #14 Lowenbrau 962 into the garage at Riverside. While the 917’s were certainly the Beast of the Era , those 962’s were one of the most consistent race cars ever created . A couple years ago , I got to sit in the Sunoco 917-30 at the Rennsport Reunion at Laguna Seca . Another notable car was the Slantnose rebuilds from Mclaren complete with an F1 engine from either Laudas’ or Prost’ .   I’m looking at adding a higher power amp to my single ended SEP system, and obtaining a new pair of Double impacts to replace my Zu Omens . I will certainly spend some time studying your system, as it is light years ahead of mine . I would love to spend time at your house , first to hear your system , and second to learn about your mods . I have certainly learned from this site , and been entertained too . Although growing up in a family that couldn’t afford to have a race car , I was fortunate enough to be exposed by my father to a lifetime of watching races all over California. My fathers school mate raced a Mclaren Can-Am car and owned the famous 198 Cobra that earned its fame later when owned by Dick Smith . So thanks for triggering happy memories and the the Tekton update . Regards , Mike B.

The truth is that Porsches only become the joy they are at speed.   Here in Arizona where everyone is doing 80/90 on the highway, mine starts to make me smile.....the car sticks better, the engine is quieter/smoother, the body becomes more responsive....it becomes a part of me.  Around town its much like a Honda/Suberu, etc.  

Rennsport Reunion is the pinnacle of Porsche, at least in the USA. Donahue, Redman, and Bell were telling tales at the Mission when Porsche was the featured marque at Laguna Seca one year. Hurley Haywood's plane barely got him there in time to get to the track, hop in a 914/6 and go from last in the field to win in only I think a 15 or 20 lap race. He won by a foot at the line, most exciting race ever and I was watching from the hill above Andretti Hairpin where between the view and the big screens you could see almost the entire circuit. To top it off this was the last race of the weekend- and Porsche won! After passing the whole field! Thrilling!

Haven't heard them myself but Double Impacts are his best selling speakers for a reason. Outstanding reviews. Moabs have the full MTM array. A lot more money but guys who have heard both say well worth the extra. At the same time there are guys who say DI is so good it is their end game speaker. Hard to go wrong with any Tekton, far as I can tell.  

I'm just east of Seattle in Redmond, and would love to have you over any time. There's so many tweaks that just to give an overview, people ask questions, it can be a good 20-30 minutes just to skim the surface. Seems sometimes like this is all I do, but the truth is years go by doing hardly anything, yet after 30 years it really adds up. This being one of those years where it is adding up a lot faster than average!😂

stringreen-

The truth is that Porsches only become the joy they are at speed.   Here in Arizona where everyone is doing 80/90 on the highway, mine starts to make me smile.....the car sticks better, the engine is quieter/smoother, the body becomes more responsive....it becomes a part of me.  Around town its much like a Honda/Suberu, etc.

https://youtu.be/bXRyy-RBuzc?t=581

If you can just do two mortgage payments a month, plus however much you can scrape together at the end of a year of clipping coupons eating beans never going anywhere and never buying anything, then in just 6 or 7 years when the mortgage is paid off you will be absolutely astounded with how easy it is to buy really good capacitors.

Been Dave Ramsey-ing it for the last three years mate. Over 20% cash for the deposit (no mortgage insurance), no other debt not even for a vehicle. Started out making somewhere between 6 to 8 times in the principle, but after securing 2.625% rate, I dropped back to double principle payments, and banking the rest for investment.

*just ta be cheeky* Oh I already have the capacitors mate, cast Duelund VSF with silver foil bypass caps - the pair cost as much as your entire upgraded crossovers. It would be bragging rites if yours weren't as good, or so damned close in quality. So yeah, you're the lucky buggar with the deal mate.

Sorry, wasn't even thinking of that angle. Was more like that is how expensive just the caps are. Even with no mortgage I can barely afford Duelund bypass caps! Not that Duelunds would fit in there even if I could afford them! Will have to "get by" with just Alumen Z with the Duelund bypass caps.  

It will all be good though thanks to my Krissy magic. Heh. ;)

"get by" oh please.. I can't wait to read your impressions after you've opened up the signal to the drivers.

And I know you're doing the Krissy thing (me too), do heed what rushfan71 was telling you, I would wager this is the next big step, in taming the Corolla...Bwahahahahah

stringreen,

I think AZ is great too to drive in at lower speeds than 80 to 90 in a Porsche if you have one that wasn’t conceived and designed as more of a grand touring car vs. a race car, i.e. 911s built pre-1999 or the the GT and RS series from any year.

I loved the time I passed a 911 on a exit ramp in my 72 Lotus Europa TC..scared me almost to death.. Tom

Air core coils will sound best if you have the signal enter the inside of the foil and exit the outside.....either towards the driver or towards ground.  The xover should never be inside the vibrating box.  Run the wires out the back and have the xover mounted on damped raised platform.....much easier to upgrade xover with time, as well.  The wires to the woofers should be soldered directly to the voice coil wires.......do not go through the binding posts or tabs that are mounted on the driver.  Just solder your wire directly to the voice coil wire where it meats its tab.  Of course, you do not want distorting binding posts or spades, etc on your speaker wires.  You want to hardwire your xover to your speaker wires (the wires from your amp).......or you can use my binding post bypass system for easy connect and disconnect.  Less is more.  If you have midranges in your speakers.....then hardwire the speaker wire to their voice coil wires, as well.....same with full range drivers....way better sound.  Felting around all the tweeters (and midranges) will give a more focused and pure sound.  The felt should run right up to the edge of the dome....covering the entire tweeter.  All of the speakers I have made or modded all had the above done....always with superior sound.

@theaudiotweak ....but you pulled the classic Lotus move.....;)

I once saw an Elan suck the doors off a 'vette.

I suspect that driver remembered that, too. *G*

Both of them.

rixthetrick   OK, My Supercharged car was a first generation 1988.  It was not available in the states without T-Tops, although there were a few people who did add the equipment on their own to the non-blown car.  I lost to one at the Dog Wood Gran Prix.  Unfortunately, most people did not realize that the engine blocks were different, with the S/C engine block. etc. being much more robust, from a spec series race engine.  My Turbo was a second generation 1993.  You are correct, it was available with or without T-Tops. I owned both cars for a few years  The Turbo is the one I used at the Porsche Club events, although the few series championshipd I won weer with the S/C car.  A former Porsche National champion father and son had a turbo, and showed me a a few tricks for my car, but never quite enough to beat them.  I used B&W (box) car speakers in the former car, with a Soundstream amp. 
     I really like B&W's, having owned at least one set since my early 1970's DM4, which was interestingly a DM2 changed from a ported to a transmission line cabinet.  Both used the Celestion upper mid/tweet and the Coles super tweeter that KEF used in their speaker, as did the famous Rogers min-monitors.  B&W's first speaker was this KEF that was bought to improve the crossover to create their first speaker, the Domestic Monitor.  This B&W, and the KEF from which it was derived, used the squashed 6 x 9 looking KEF woofer that was used to make the cabinet narrower, in order to lower Britain's VAT tax on cabinet width.     B&W then came out with narrow stand mount models (DM 2/II, DM7, DM14, DM16, plus the powered DM14 called the Active One.  Both designs were originally created to lower this VAT tax.     (Added that to make the topic home audio related.)   







teh 

@ricevs -

Air core coils will sound best if you have the signal enter the inside of the foil and exit the outside

Funny, I wired mine signal in on the outside, the core towards ground, I posted the photos in my system page, and that aspect is clearly seen also. I was told the opposite??? I almost had to run the lowest value inductor that way you said, as I had not left long enough leads, but I wound (Andrew Lenehan actually hand wound them, and he's better at it really) a new pair the way they are now.

I do know of an Australian speaker manufacturer who bypasses the spade terminals on the basket by drilling off the rivet that holds the mounting plate on, but it’s how he joins the ribbon internal wire that makes it work so damned well. He’s using a special silicone for vibration isolation on the join.
I did the same on my larger speakers using Jack Bybees bullets, directly wired in. Thank you, good info mate.

Can you imagine the time to do a Tekton array of tweeters eliminating the posts? It took me hours just to silicone mount my bybees to the basket and connecting the tinsel leads on just four drivers - Urrggggh!

And he replaced the aluminum baffle on the tweeter with a polished copper baffle, which gave it a significant increase (I had to edit out my Aussie slang, I forget sometimes I can be hard to understand) , well in performance and cost (copper plate and machining aren’t cheap).


@millercarbon - I sure hope you read that? Now you have conflicting information, something else for you to investigate.

@millercarbon - I would like to discuss with you, if you are willing, crossovers I’m considering for my Apogee Duetta II Signature Series full range ribbon speakers, but I’m on the fence regarding doing it at all (don’t want to lose the “Apogee” sound I’m so addicted to) and, if I do, if I should go with the caps recommended by Music Technology/ Graz in Australia or maybe consider going a different way. The speakers are being sent to Bill Thalmann @ Music Technology for full restoration anyway. I don’t want to potentially (partially) squander the ~$1,200 I’ll be spending for freight (AR to VA). Are you able to private message me? If not, we can take it offline via email if you prefer. Thanks in advance.

Sure. PM coming. But I don’t really "do" crossovers. Barely understand the subject. All I do is swap out parts - caps, resistors, inductors - for higher quality parts of the same value. Done a fair amount of this over the years and with speakers, amps, and other stuff, always with good results. Do it right and you don’t really change the fundamental character of the component much at all- it just becomes a whole lot more clean and liquid, with greater detail and a greater sense of ease. Caps are kind of like tubes or cartridges. The better ones are just plain better, but among the better ones you can choose smoother or more analytical. No matter what you choose even the more analytical of the better caps will seem liquid and make even the smoothest cheap cap sound grainy by comparison.

I read in Sound and Vision magazine the half-million dollar Rolls Royce had a sound system which has software giving access to every pop song ever recorded. It excludes classical music and opera because according to some market research too few people who buy a Rolls Royce prefer that kind of music, something few people would expect. That taught me the lesson; entering the ranks of the super-rich is not a gateway to the higher and more human forms of culture.

Woke up this morning around 5AM couldn't go back to sleep so started working on the crossover. Incredible how much time it takes to put this thing together with all the tweaks and short leads and tight space. Anyway, just finished soldering it all together. Everything still needs to be glued down but this is pretty much what it will look like. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 One shot shows the parts just laid out to see if they will fit. Most of them are covered over with fO.q tape and the whole thing is mounted on a Tetrault Quantum of Solace, and will be laminated to a BDR Shelf on Townshend Pods. This all goes on a brace behind the lower woofer. Getting it glued down and in there should take up the rest of the day. Really want to hear this tonight!😍 

One is in! Only 2 solid hours removing one, cutting trimming fitting drilling tapping twisting crimping soldering swearing no just testing to see if anyone reading. My back needs a break. A beer would be nice. When we're done.

While I don't own a Porsche I do own an Audi TT but that's not the point. The guy that rebuilds the Powerdyne BD-11 supercharger for my S-10 ZR2 4.3l engine is a huge Porsche enthusiast. Check him out here:

https://928motorsports.com/

Let’s see if I got this pic posting thing right.

Here is the crossover for the upper section of my double impacts.

When the boxes are complete (parts on order) the wires coming from the drivers and out the rear of the speaker will be into one neat sheathed cable with each wire terminated with a male GR Research tube connector and the xover components will be soldered to wire connected to female GR conns. mounted to the boxes rather than the copper post units you see now, the components will be fastened with zip ties.

When finished they will be painted black along with the covers I made for the boxes.

The boxes are dove tailed drawer boxes.


https://postimg.cc/y3cvzHy2/7333bf4f

From 5:30 AM to 9PM. Minus 2 breaks and dinner, call it 12 hours. Running demag tracks- it makes sound. That's good. Shower. I need a shower.

Spellbinding.

Tchaivosky Capriccio Italien. White Hot Stamper. Speechless.

Thank you, Rick. Krissy ❤️🥰. John. Max & Sue. Timmy, DJ, RIP. Eric, of course. Freaking amazing speakers. Who knew all this was waiting to be unleashed? 😍

@millercarbon,

That's pretty much the same reactions I had when I finished with the Mundorf Silver/Gold Oil cap upgrades in my speakers. In fact, I called in sick to work that night just to sit and listen to this whole new world that was being presented in front of me. Best sick day ever!

They will get even better as you put time on them and the components break in so sit back and relax, you've earned it!

parker65310


I have a pair of apogee duetta 2 speakers also, so I know what you mean about loosing that sound. With this crossover upgrade are the caps still going to be a bunch of small value or just a bigger value cap. Apogee used small value caps of pretty good quality for the time they were built to make a bigger value, probably because they didn't have those bigger values in the 80's.

Chuck, glad to know your hard work is paying off. Enjoy it!

Chuck, It's great when your research and hard work reward you with a sensational experience, thanks for taking the Moabs to the next level!

Drawn into new sounds after dinner and beer, that's a combination. After the first shower comes the rain of more musical notes.

@parker65310
I have never heard the “Apogee” sound, how would you characterise it?
What particularly stands out as what you enjoy about them the most?

Of course I've heard electrostatics, maggies for example. I imagine they don't go very low, and if that's the case, you're not likely to get the low frequency low buildup and nodes in your room.

Do you know what your crossover is doing to the signal coming from the amplifier? I am guessing here, does it high pass bass frequencies and cut frequencies off at the very top end outside of audible frequencies?

I saw your system page, thanks for sharing, looks great and I went ahead and searched some of the items online, it was a good read.

**Sigh of relief here**
@millercarbon - not surprised that the Moabs have opened up, and sound better. And yes, it’s going to take weeks for things to settle in as others have rightly mentioned. A positive result immediately is a very good sign of what will come as burn in takes place. You know this, I'm stating the obvious, however in a couple of weeks, it'll be interesting what you experience - Capt. Obvious.

When ricevs mentioned the direction of the inductors I though, oh crap did I misunderstand my mentor Mike?? I will have to ask him.

@ricevs - if you have information more on the subject of inductor signal direction, or polarity, please share it? I am open to reading more on the subject. I’m pretty sure the testing that was done at our factory on inductor direction was with items with alligator clipped together and going back and forth to determine which was better. I’ll admit there’s a 50:50 chance I heard wrong and made a mistake.

I even told MC to investigate it for himself.

Solenoid Boxer (E) engine (motor). Cute!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4im3M9IFcI

Enjoy.. I did..

Few parts you could use in your new crossover.. :-)

I'll tell you one thing I noticed, the larger the cap and higher the voltage rating the longer it takes to brake in. BIG teflons take WAY to long. A guy at Parts Connection 15 years ago told me.. BE PATIENT.. He built the crossovers I was breaking in..

I though I was having a stroke a couple of times the wiggy sound that would come out those speakers 24/7 for 2 whole months. I borrowed a pair of NC400 class ds for the task... It worked.. Never again for me.

Copper foils and oils took 50 hours. Night and day in break in time. I just did a set on Six Pacs coupling (CF) and decoupling caps (AF)..

Happy Happy MC..

Regards

There is not much "info" out there on inductor direction.....pretty esoteric.  They measure the same either way and have no "outside foil" like a film cap so most people just do what they want.  As a long time serious tweaky listener, I wanted to find out if there was a difference.  A friend, who was building his own speakers told me his "crossover guru" said that the best sound was going into the inside.  At that time I had never played seriously with inductors.....but was building a three way that used the B&G Neo 10 planar and also the Neo 3 as tweeter.  I needed a xover around 3K.   I listened both ways to the coil in series with the Neo 10 and it was super clear that the "crossover guru" was correct.  I trust my ears.  The coil was a .59mh 12 gauge Wax foil coil from Jantzen.  Pretty easy for anyone to try this.  Listen for yourself.  Never trust anyone else. 

I consider inductors as the worse component in a xover.  Really great caps and resistors have very little sound.  A .59mh air core inductor has something like 70 or feet of wire/foil.  Do you think that 70 feet of OFC wire or foil wound on itself is not a serious veil?  I do.  My next speaker will not have inductors in series with the midrange or any driver.  I am making a stereo amp (one for each channel) for my friends planar panel system.  He is using 4 Neo 10s and 12 Neo 3s on an open baffle.  Currently he is listening to a coil and cap on the midrange.  What I am doing for him is to make a 12 db per octave filter at line level on the input stage of one channel of his modded Purifi amps.  By using seriously transparent parts at line level and running the Neo 10s directly from the amp he will have another level of transparency.  The Neo 3 tweeters can still be run with the cap/coil combo at speaker lever for very little loss....however, just now thinking it would be best to remove the coil to ground on the tweeter by just having a cap in series with the tweeter and do the second pole of filtering on the input of the tweeter amp.......thereby removing all coils from his speaker......yes, must do this.

By the way, a friend has the Lii-Audio Silver 10s (full range drivers) mounted on a 2 foot by 4 foot baffle with one by four wings going straight back.  97 db efficient, flat to 40 hz in his room.....has added ESS AMT on top with copper foil cap for slightly more air.  Bypassed the binding posts on the speaker so his speaker wire is soldered to the voice coil wire.  He is in heaven.  Total cost is around $2.5K......four drivers, wood and 2 copper foil caps.  Mind blowing sound.  He is going to add 2 15 inch custom open baffle woofs on each side to add some serious slam......running off Pass active xover with solid state class A amp for the woofs.  My next speaker will be something like this.

My new crossover under much consideration will have no caps and will rely on 2 inductors and a resistor. Right now looking at Solen Litz wire inductors of 12 gauge or less. I can purchase 10 gauge and they can wind down to the values I need .2 mh on the woofer and .4mh on the ribbon tweeter. Not sure of the wire length but with these small values it should be short enough.
The Litz wire will have less skin effect than a comparable solid core or ribbon inductor and less  mutual capacitance and therefore more extended response..Only listening will tell for sure. Tom

I did not like Solen Litz inductors when I tried them. OFC Mundorf Foil inductors were way, way more transparent and extended (both were 12 gauge). Even the type of coating on a litz wire will have a serious effect on the sound. The thicker the coating....the worse the sound. Double coating is really a no no.  If you like slow fat veiled sound then Solen's are great.  I can see some people will think they are smooth.......and if you have bad electronics then a nice match.

I can understand how the coatings will alter the sound. I do have a couple large value 10 gauge Solo not Solen foils I can wind down to a loose wind which I prefer to a tight machine wind More air in between the layers and less skin affect I would believe.  Tom

Microphonics are important.  You do no want a loosely wound coil.  Mundorf has a newer foil inductor where they use special paper and resin to create an even tighter coil for better sound.

https://www.mundorf.com/audio/en/shop/Coils/Air_Coils/MCoil_VLCU/