10-14-12: Dover
The verdier platine comes with an option to use a ball and thrust plate. Essentially this means the platter is grounded, and provides an energy path to ground for unwanted energy or resonance. In this mode the magnetic repulsion is still employed, but it means the tt has a high mass platter, but the grounded bearing only sees a fraction of that weight. This is a very elegant solution and is used in the Continuum. I prefer this mode, the grounding tightens and focus' the sound, increases resolution and articulation if applied properly. Dear Dover, I have opposite info about PV ball support: "When Verdier changed the bearing from all-magnet to ball support in 1992 he did so because he no longer got the full-force and high quality magnets from J. Mahul needed for the PV. He had to change to other magnets from Slovenia and they were not as constant nor as powerful. Consequently he introduced the ball support to address the problem of unstable gap height with the "new" magnets. The ball support introduced additional noise in the sonic performance as well as robbed away most of the "air" the original PV supplies. The original bearing provides more live-realism, speed and micro-dynamics." Best regards, |
Not to argue with anyone but I am really curious how relevant is the tapping test as far as airborne vibration is concerned?
Certainly if MS does not transmit any noise through the cartridge when tapping, then it is more immuned toward airborne vibration than turntable that does. However, to be immuned toward airborne vibration, how far do you have to go? Airborne vibration is certainly much much less forceful than tapping directly on the turntable. However, I feel that a turntable that failed tapping test does not neccessarily means that it is susceptible to airborne vibration. To pass tapping test, may just be an overkill in engineering or may be not! I don't really know. What do you all think? |
Rsf507, I agree with you, speed instability is most easily detected while listening to piano music, for anyone who has ever played the instrument or who has a decent sense of pitch. (I studied piano for several years, and I am an amateur jazz singer, but I would say that I have only a "decent" sense of pitch, certainly not perfect.) Because I love piano jazz, I have become a total convert to DD turntables and to my highly tweaked Lenco, so I am in the same place you are. But I would submit that, at least to my ears, piano can sound absolutely "right" on some turntables that do not pass the Timeline test with flying colors. In other words, the Timeline is more demanding than is actual music. Which is why I conclude that, at least for me, I cannot be certain that a given turntable is "Timeline-worthy" just by listening to it. But since listening to music is the actual goal, I really don't give a hoot about Timeline perfection. (I don't think the Lenco is perfect by Timeline standards, but it does piano as well as my DD turntables, all of which ARE perfect by that standard.) |
Marill555 ---You should recognize that compromise is an inherent aspect of design and no turntable (or anything else for that matter) is perfect.
There will always be compromise between competing design objectives and these compromises will affect the ultimate sound.It is for you to determine which design best fulfills your personal objectives.
As you can already ascertain.Each poster,although they have opposite thoughts,may also be correct.
They can speak to their experiences only.
You are an experienced listener
$10,000 is quite a bit of change.Listen to each table and
then decide.
Best of luck |
Goldenearguy speaks wisely -
all designs are compromises
nothing is perfect
people can only draw and share info from own personal experiences
$10K is a nice chunk of change
No matter what - make all attempts to listen to each table you are considering, even if in different systems in different rooms. |
I do own a Raven AC 2 since 2007. Did six modifications on it so far. Can't imagine to hear it in it's stock state again.
I use the battery driven motor controller as well. But i can't say whether it has speed stability or not - because i can't set up the right speed at all.
As measuring tools there a stroboscope disc with 300 Hz flash and a Timeline. Viewing the stroboscope disc for detecting the rotational behavior of the platter is like watching the clouds. For me, the Timeline is the way to go. And what is this device revealing on the Raven? Maybe you could hit the 33,3 speed mark, pushing the up and down buttons of the controller, when using the stock belt. Given a specific belt tension, too.
I'm using string or tape - for the reason of better performance. Doing so it is not possible to set up the right speed (33,3 or 45). The Timeline shows this fact undeniable: the platter always rotates to fast or to slow. The Laser never stands still on the wall. Pushing the buttons does not help. Why?
Its because of the regulation build in the motor controller. It works with incremental steps of speed regulation. Tiny steps, but STEPS. If you need a value between two possible steps for perfect speed adjustment, and this is the case with string or tape that have different diameters, - you are lost with this kind of construction.
So the Laser is wandering on the wall - i'm not able to say if it does it with regular speed.
For future improvements (or turntables) i never would accept such as a drive management again. Only a ANALOGUE solution with a classic potentiometer providing all values necessary.
I think this issue is basic. Not only to the Raven. |
The nice thing about the Micro Seiki is that it can only be purchased used, therefore, if you puchase wisely, you risk very little $$ if you choose to go another direction. |
Another good option is a Basis Turntable. Very good technical solutions, the
Designer really has knowledge about turntable Design. Some can be upgraded
and even when you compare his belts to others, you realize, he is miles ahead
from all others. Precise Motor, uncolored Sound, excellent dynamics. In a way a
'tool' when you want to know what's really done with the records in the
Recording process. Design done right. |
Oh the tap test. I worked hard to modify my turntable ( nude JVC TT101) and the supporting shelf so that it passed the tap test. So clearly I believe it is somewhat important. And yes I do believe the sound improved in terms of clarity and precision, especially at crescendos. When I mentioned this in a thread on the new NVS TT, I was widely booed. So many people think it unimportant - but have they ever heard the difference it makes? |
Regarding Timeline, I agree that the step on TW motor control is a bit too big. VPI SDS give a smaller increment in speed adjustment. With TW, it was always either a little too fast or too slow. However, I use my TW without any center weight. I setup the speed with a record on the table and cartridge playing the record and usually just choose the speed that is just a little bit slower than what it should be. I assume that when I take Timeline off, the platter would spin a little faster with less weight. So I imagine that using Timeline, I would never really hit 33.3 or 45 exactly anyhow. On the other hand, once speed is set, I have not really notice significant drift in speed that I can detect with my eyes using Timeline. |
People! I will tell you don't buy a Timeline and find out your tables are slow or fast, it will drive you nuts! Once you hear a table that has PERFECT speed control you will then understand what all the fuss is about. I had a TTWeights table and thought it sounded great until I tested it with a Timeline and found it could not keep the correctly speed. I searched and searched and once I found something (and it's irrelevant what I got) I then understood what I was missing. So I repeat, don't buy a Timeline unless you want to start all over again, enjoy what you have.
(Dealer disclaimer) |
Solong your experiences with the Raven are flabbergasting. My Final Audio Parthenon, built in the 70's, using an AC motor/20kg platter, has infinite control of speed at both 33 & 45, and the amount of torque applied to the motor is fully adjustable to optimise speed stability and minimise motor vibration.
The real killer though is that I have a Thorens TD126mk2 that I use for 78's also built in the 70's - this has a wein bridge oscillator speed control & rubber belt as standard and it can hold speed accurately, even when putting the 1.8kg record stabiliser from the Final Audio on there was no speed adjustment required and the speed holds.
It just makes you wonder whether the advent of digital controllers in modern motor technology is simply not good enough for audio. |
Sksos1, that is an interesting thing to say.
Did you go to a direct drive? Yes or no works for me.
BTW thanks for the dealer disclaimer, not everyone represents themselfs honestly on audiogon.
Terry |
Tdaudio - YES
(Dealer disclaimer) |
Suteetat...I give the speed control switch on my Raven One just a very quick flip up or down as many times as I need to(I've found the push button control of little or no help)while simultaneously checking the rotational speed of the platter with the excellent K-A-B SpeedStrobe disc and Quartz lock strobe light. I've had no real problem setting the platter speed dead on. I then flip the other toggle switch to lock it in. I've also had virtually no or extremely miniscule issues with any platter speed drift over a considerable period of time. |
It just makes you wonder whether the advent of digital
controllers in modern motor technology is simply not good enough for audio.
I think, it is a general problem of our modern time : Maximum Profit Analog reproduction has a lot of it, most customers want "good Sound" and that's it. Instead of thinking about what is done in their units they tell the world how "great" their last buy is. We all know these stories... Even when the motor is a good one, there are much, much, much more details which will end finally in a superior sonic result. Escaping to Direct Drives may be a solution for some, but they have other problems which block a - real - outstanding sonic Performance. There are simply rules of Physic which can be ignored from users, but technically it is the way it is.. Solution? I think, there is no hope, 10 years ago I thought, Turntables will be improved but unfortunately Brain is replaced with Marketing gimmicks (Multi Motors, Wood Arms on a String, PRaT etc...) and Boutique Pricing replace well thought, final solutions. Outsourcing is also not the solution when the Manufacturer has to rely on others because he has no idea about what is responsible for what. All that is a explanation why - especially in Europe - some go back to the "good old times" with their Equipment. but here we have the same situation: You should know what to buy. Digital Hardware has some advantages, Timeline Strobe can't be used ... :-) |
Syntax who is holding you back from making the great motor/controller you lazy POS. The market is emmense, can't you see it. Go save us, maybe you can win a Nobel prize.
Lets call a spade a spade, your whole gig is the "marketing" of yourself (the expert consulant) and a few odd hardware items (at least from what I have seen). Funny how its OK for you market yourself but when others do it its "gimmicky". Really?
Its ok ot make money. But looking at your "system" page its nice for you that people pay you money. You have a lot of pricy stuff, it must be a lot of money. You don't strike me as some kind of Robbin Hood. |
... you back from making the great motor/controller you
lazy POS I am not a manufacturer nor a deaf Dealer who sells inferior products to customers with wrong promises. I am a regular customer who prefers Designs done right (or close to it). I think, I am not the right person for your "questions" :-) |
Some of you guys would never make it in the medical world where patient's lives depend on large, randomized controlled trials, objectivity and leaving egos at the door.
Geez, this is a great hobby for music lovers. Everyone can't be right, and everyone can't be wrong. That's what makes it fun. Let's keep it fun. |
Here are at least two of the many designs that Syntax owns that are "done right": Vibraplane and Source Odyssey RCM. Agreed, let's keep it fun. |
I wonder, if using a third party motor control unit (Walker?) with TW AC-1 would improve speed stability?
Philb7777,
You are right about the medical field and the large randomized, placebo- controlled trials (I'm a physician BTW), but unfortunately one cannot operate with a large enough sample here, to make any intelligent conclusions.
As you can see, the opinions in this very thread are diametrically opposite. I really was hoping for more consensus on these two TTs. Go figure |
For what it's worth, the speed stability on my TW AC-1 is rock solid using the Feikert Adjust program. Including a center weight and stylus drag as factors. Same for 33 and 45 rpm. I'm using a dedicated 20A circuit and a Cardas Golden Ref power cable though. |
Maril555, agree with you on our micro-sample size. I just long for more objectivity and no personal attacks or pompous attitudes on these boards. Makes them less fun, less informative.
Good luck on your search - you probably can't go wrong in either direction - the Micro-Seiki or a TW table. Both are in the 1%. |
OMG - so many opinions, all of which are well founded and respected. My 2 cents worth ........
On the Micro tt's the SX-8000 tables with air bearing destroy the 5000 series. The ringing 5000 platters are real issue. The motor units are the same and need some TLC if they have not been refurbed - I had a major issue with an RY5500 unit which are not gonna be easy to fix by your local tech if the motor is an issue. Having said that the tables can be driven by other motor units.
The Micro tables are phenomenal, but they are getting a bit long n the tooth - so there will be maintenance issues.
Having really enjoyed my SX-8000 I sold it to get equivalent performance from my Garrard 301 /401 / Lenco and DD tables. Right now the winning beast is a Victor TT-101 in a lead plinth, closely followed by an Kenwood L0-7D and then my tricked out Lencos. |
Philb7777, Maril555 thanks for getting this thread back on track. And yes I am having fun or else I would not be here.
If you have not noticed, it seems like most TW threads turn into a battle ground. There is a contingent of posters that just attack anything TW. Do a search of TW threads and you will find this to be true. I understand the theoretical points. But if you want to know why there is not a lot objective input on the posts, there is the reason.
Maril555, this is a hobby for me but I have been at it for a while. IIRC the Micro Seiki 5000 tables were produced very close to the time the CD came out - early 80s (I say that for anyone that may not know). They were fairly expensive for the time and not a lot of the high end tables i.e. 5000, 8000 ect. were sold because of the new CD and the economy was tough as well. So it is sort of a mistry even on audiogon. I assume you have done some research on MS tables to be even asking. What have you turned up? If you have not found it there are usually forums on interesting vintage equipment. There is no doubt in my mind the better MS tables are very interesting.
One thing that amazes me is how so many threads in the analog section drill down relentlessly on one point (but speed controll is very important) but seemingly miss some of the big picture.
For example, the preception of the leading edge trasient. I get how the TT speed control is critical to that. But lets go to the other end of the chain, the speakers.
Many high end, even uber high end speakers, use steep cross over slopes where the finished product has the tweeter out of phase of the woofer (in a two way) or out of phase from the midrange in three way. Good luck with assessing the leading edge when different drivers are out of phase.
One more thing that is even more important on the speaker end is the issue of first refections points on the floor, celling, and side walls. Nothing like have the leading edge smeared by those reflections.
Then there is the bass response in your room...
I only go on to illiustrate how important the whole of a system is to what one hears.
Philb7777, Maril555 much of my post is for anyone folling the thread. |
|
I don't think getting a projectable sample is of any value here guys. I think you have to put these units in the system in question, and live with them for a while. That's the only way. Expensive, perhaps, but if Maril bought a good MS, and got Jeff to 'loan' him an AC and he decided he liked the AC better, the MS could be resold pretty easily, as long as it was a good example, no? |
Sometimes it remembers me to car selling "Yes, it has 8 cyl., sometimes they run, but don't be so picky, six or seven are also great. The tires are round, the painting is nice, it is a great car. We have lots of customers who do'#t drive faster than 55 anyway..."
Best is, buy a Timeline, go to a Dealer, ask for a Demo and put it on. |
Syntax if that is your response, its lame. Really? Address the points raise above. No more mis direction Take a couple of dayes, you may need it. |
Syntax, sorry i nmissed the car selling line. You use to be a used car salesman. Now I get it. |
sorry that came up twice. |
RadicalSteve, glad to read your endorsement of the TT-101. I don't have it in a lead or any plinth but I do use a Merrill lead mat under an Achromat. My only fear is the inevitable integrated circuit disintegration. But I will spend the money to have it repaired - if possible - when that day comes. I recapped it last year - so less concern there. |
Marill
My experience over a ten month period with a newly purchased two motor Raven ac was in fact a negative one.
Swapping arms from one table to another quickly proved fatal to the Raven.
I suppose that I possibly could of taken delivery of a lemon however the sound reproduced from that table was dead. |
Steve, Glad you have come to enjoy the L07D. Does the TT101 have coreless motor? I would have guessed that it has a Denon-like motor, i.e., iron core. |
I hate to interject subjective, 'system-dependent,' synergy-type thinking here, since despite my subjectivist leanings, I tend to think of turntables in terms of accuracy, speed constancy, low noise and neutrality, but is some of the difference here in views, apart from ergonomics or aesthetics or sheer 'funk' value, attributable to sonic 'system' matching, in the same way we recognize synergies with other components? I'm not advocating an agenda here, but wonder if some of the diverging views have to do with what else is in the system and its overall sonic character? |
Lewm, TT-101 - absolutely a coreless motor. |
In_shore,
Could you please elaborate on the sound you heard from TW?
And what other table/s you compared it to?
Thanks |
The TW ac-3 does not have speed stability issues. It has been rock solid for the years I have owed it. My old VPI HRX had speed issues. Each time you measured it with the kab strobe it would be a different speed.
The TW is always the same. However, as mentioned by a couple of others the steps in adjustment are too large that you can never get it spot on. You can get it between 0.03 0.1% thou.
I just which had the bass speed, control and nimbleness of my Exclusive P3 |
"...[I] wonder if some of the diverging views have to do with what else is in the system and its overall sonic character?"
I certainly wouldn't be surprised. |
Had plenty of clients who sold their TW decks and replaced with an SP10. None to my knowledge who did the reverse.
I'd be looking at your arm, cartridge, isolation, plinth, and every other aspect of your setup, and living with it until you really know it, before making a change-which is really a step down from what you currently own.
Jonathan Weiss
OMA |
Is it possible that those Raven owners who have not been able to maintain stable platter speed have not correctly used the "STORE" mechanism on the speed control box? Some of the instructions on the sheet of paper that came with my Raven One, giving instructions about setting and maintaining speed, are poorly worded and/or confusing. For example,the paper says this: To storing the revolutions press "STORE". But here is what one actually has to do: Once proper rotational speed has been determined(see my explanation above from 10/17), one has to flip up and release the toggle switch that says STORE(locking in the speed). To unstore(unlocking the speed)and re-set the rotational speed, one must flip down and release that toggle switch. In the event anyone has not been aware of these things, I hope this helps. These particular instructions were not provided in the paper designed to make these procedures clear. Should any issues arise, Jeff Catalano can be of service. He has supplied me with valuable assistance and insight on several occasions. |
Non of my AC tables that I owned including the Black Knight were capable to be set-up spot on for speed accuracy using the TimeLine. The controller just didn't allow this nor did it properly control.
Why would you use other instruments that are not showing the proper speed, has me wondering that you really don't want to know when there is a instrument that will show you the flaws.
I chuckle when I read some of the postings above, some preaching like their word is it, they come across as if "don't you dar say this or that" or trying to suggest possibly the system as a whole is not up to the task.
Possibly it's your system is the one that's not up to the task or your even worse your ears but them again all one has to do is place the TimeLine on any table and watch at both speeeds and then place a record on and play. If any of you AC owners are suggesting that your tables are spot on are just folling your self, they aren't. Sorry :(
It's great that there is so much passion but come on guys relax it's only audio and we are suppose to share to learn.
I personally like to learn and not close minded.
The responces in realtion to MS platter ringing, that's so old. Place the proper platter on it like the "stainless steel as the 8000 has" no ringing but even better do a floating platter as syntax and I have well it will take you into a whole other world. I don't like the 8000 with the suction platter.
Enjoy! I know I am. |
Maril
I found my Raven AC boring , dark sounding like VPI ,music was totally uninvolved overall it was more then disappointing with the time and money spent on it.
Reading through the raves I just don't get these guys at all, especially the drooling over the Graham Phantom arm combination. Back then I had no idea how good my Graham arm Dynavector XV1s was until I swapped that arm onto another table.
Since then of course other record players, cartridges and tonearms have graced my system. Micro Seiki 1500 and 5000,Kenwood LO7D and a all for the fun of it modded panzer plinth VPI TNT.
I'll remind you of some recent history involving several members here on Audiogon lead by a well respected high profile member with a black diamond Walker VS a electronically refreshed Technics sp10 mk11 coupled to a purpose built plinth.
I followed Porters progress and decided to do work on my own fun panzerholz project sp10 mkii. I can tell you results are much differant from other sp10s coupled to factory plinths even nude including DIY off the shelf material projects.
I don't know what some of you TW owners are suggesting that somehow there had to be some sort of mismatch with system synergy?? or some other component mismatch?? I think the Graham arm revealed the Raven for what it is.
, the raven failed miserably at play back including a feedback test where I placed the stylus on a stationary record and then turn the gain up.
Incidentally I am not the only dissapointed tw owner.
|
Maril555 is also asking about the sonic differences between his own SP10Mk2 and the Raven and MS. Could those of you who have experience with the DD and either or both of the BD tables discuss some of the differences? I'm sure they go beyond just speed accuracy.
I don't have a lot of experience with different tables, but I have found that how a table deals with energy is very important. Both the energy generated by the cartridge traveling through the arm and into the armbase and plinth and also the internal energy generated by the motor and bearing and vibrational energy generated by the listening environment. I would think that shape, mass and materials are what matter here as well as drainage paths. |
.... so much passion... Well, be careful, shooting the messenger is very common in the dark group wrong timing? |
I was the one that raised the question of system synergy, given some of the diverse descriptions of sound, from too much leading edge, to dark and dead. I don't own an AC table; I'm using the Kuzma XL and Airline and am not promoting that either (although I've been quite happy with it, other than the pump for the arm).
Bill Hart |
Syntax, Thanks for putting this foolishness in perspective and for the laughs. |
I've been following this thread and have always been interested in a TW table but now hearing from current owners who say they know their tables are not "spot on" and previous owners who say TWs are dark and lifeless I think I'll look elsewhere. |
Jonathan,
Just to help people know a little more about you. OMA stands for Oswald Mills Audio. You used to manufacture your wn slate turntable. Not sure if it still in production. If I remember correctly it was an idler drive.
And as for synergy, if you don't know how to stabilize your turntable and isolate it you will never know it is capable of. The difference is night & day. So if the turntable didn't work out it can be several things including system synergy & isolation. That I know as I have my turntable isolated extremely well and only after doing such did I realize the potential. My room has been extensively treated as well. All of this makes a difference. Too much bass can lead to feedback in the wrong system & setup. |
Rsf507,
I think you will find quite a few TW owners who haven't experienced those issues. I can tell you I have the blackest backgrounds, lowest noisefloor, great tight bass and shoe-tapping rhythm and pace. Great depth, sound staging, air and musicality without sacrificing detail.
Why the disparate opinions? Not sure. I wold refute the idea that pleased TW owners don't have critical ears, or experience in analong with other analog rigs to compare to. I do think indeed its system matching, rooms, and arms and carts and phono stages that can also affect results.
I'm extrememly happy with my TW AC-1 and TW10.5 arm with a dynavector XV-1s and Rowland Cadence phono.
My friend let me borrow his MS - 5000 this weekend as the result of this thread. Frankly, it's speed control is worse than the TW and noise floor is much more noisy than the TW. That being said it is built like a tank, but no better tan the TW. I'm not sure if his motor is functioning properly as he as had issues with it to be fair. But in my room, in my system, with my listening preferences, the TW is the better table - FOR ME.
I'm not saying that the TW AC-1 would be a better table for everyone. Listening tastes, rooms and other associated equipment may interact differently.
Thus far in my room I've had a a Linn LP12, Denon 45P, VPI Classic 1, VPI Aries, VPI Aries 3, Audiomeca Romance, MS 5000, and the TW AC-1. |
