Micro Seiki, or TW AC-1

Syntax, Is that Verdier on a Vibraplane?

Correct, your eyes are really sharp

Syntax, Is that Verdier on a Vibraplane? You do take wonderful photographs.

Syntax,
Yes, I have the same one, but without his custom arm pod.

I ended up buying J.C. Verdier La Platine Granito edition (that's an older model, no longer in production).

Good choice. One of my audiophile friends uses one, too
Is yours similar to that one ?

Just an update, since I'm the one, who started this thread.
I ended up buying J.C. Verdier La Platine Granito edition (that's an older model, no longer in production).
I use it with 10" Graham Phantom Supreme tonearm and Dynavector XV-1S cartridge with Soundsmith Ruby cantilever re-tip.
I cannot compare it to the Porter Technics SP-10 MkII, that I used, since I used SME 312S tonearm with the same cart on it, but nevertheless, the differences b/w this two TT/Arm combinations are rather significant and in favor of the Verdier. Overall, it very natural and musical. I don't hear anything, that I don't like so far.
The only two upgrades, I'm likely going to make, are:
Battery PS and a support shelf for the Verdier.

@Thuchan

You were right !

Went from an AC1 to AC3 and I found the difference very large. More image focus, far greater dynamics, air, space, poise, musical relatedness/intent, and of course much better pitch stability and timing. The raven should be heard with the 3 motors imo to fully appreciate what its capable of.

Incidentally, I did try 2 motors as well but agree with TW that 3 sounds best. The motors also cost me £0 and i had a buyer for both or just one waiting in the wings, so I would have been more than happy to sell them or just sell one had the differences been too small or even non existant. No vested interest and no necessity to justify any financial outlay on an internet forum.

I echo Whart's thoughts on the Kuzma XL. I compared it to the Sme TTs same cart on each but sme V arms vs XL+313 arm. Preferred the Kuzma. I have not heard the TWs - a friend compared the single motor TW to the Kuzma XL, he much preferred the Kuzma
I now use Kuzma XL4 with the 4point. I have read Syntax's dismissal of this combination, however I am unlikely to be able to obtain a MS for comparison.
As whart says the Kuzma is better than a lot of others out there. I hear music with terrific bass, rock solid image, and great dynamics.
However to get the best out of the Kuzma I had to build a custom isolating table.

I had only compared the M/S and TW once...a few months ago, and thought the M/S far better. I know that owners don't want to hear this, but the TW sounded flawed to me. Maybe it was the setup, but I heard the downplay of TW from a few people....check Romey the Cat.....

Looks really good Lotus340r. Next step could be a second motor for the TW table. You will hear it!

hi Rauliruegas, apologies, I have never gotten arround to posting a system but have just done it and posted on the forums.

Lotus340r, absolutely true what you are saying. Of course it is a different issue for the beginner, the mid term fidelty guy or the one who already has arrived in heaven. the first group is just feeling a bit unsecure dealing with all the different opinions & special advises ending up usally in dealer or brand oriented hands. The later species you can differentiate in the ones not doing anything at their system since 10-15 years or longer and the specialists finding & working on tiny improvement issues. Both are usally engaging more on platforms than listening to their music. How should it work listening to music when your sitting 8 hours the day in front of your computer and serving 5-8 audio platforms and maybe 40-80 threads (extreme!).

Anyhow the mid term fidelity guy might be the happiest man as he is not really political, not running a church approach and only sometimes relying on brand authority. All enjoy the insight into sometimes complex topics. It's good that we have all groups and without our 'platform-guys' we would not have that kind of exchange.

In a world full of business interests we will be not able retreating only to theoretical exchanges. It is also about products, here about Micro Seikis and TW Acoustic. The MS-problem is that they are no longer in production (comparable to EMT and others). But there is a community loving these units and some are trying to improve and sell. In the case of TW there is a company and sales forces behind it trying to raise interest in the products and there is also a community of afficinados. If I would run an audio company I would be interested in good reviews, good consumer base and good feedback. Nothing bad about this.

You are right the problem is people do not listen to the units in their own chains rather relying on 2nd or 3rd hand opinions, which is okay for getting a basic opinion. Maybe we have changed over the years, too. 20 years ago we would not have invested 20k or more into one turntable without having compared it with the contenders. Hopefully this thread helps also to motivate folks doing (!) the listening and find out what is best for them.

For what it's worth, Minus K does lift the performance of TW up quite a bit. Quite a step up from Symposium Ultra for sure but also at 3-4x the price.

Dear Lotus340r: Nice post. Why I can't see analog rig on your Agon virtual system?, just curiosity.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

We all like to have our choices validated in internet forums but my take on all this is that there is no such thing as a perfect isolated product and it's all about the SYSTEM and YOUR ears. This is especially true with turntables which are ultimately a set of compomises designed into a final solution. A deck is also inextricably bound to an arm and a cartridge and in my experience they will all effect the perceived character of eachother when teamed together. There is no 100% neutral reference arm/cart combination to use as a constant in turntable comparisons and even if they was you can bet one deck would show more synergy to it than the other !

In any event, one mans 'leading edge enhancement' (through perhaps a gimballed arm, SS phonostage and amplification and a set of Wilsons) is another man's 'perfection' (when piped into say valve electronics, a unipivot and a set of electrostatics). Some people chase the ultimate in neutraliy, others actually want a little more colour and density engineered into the sound. Why ? because to some people's ears it makes the system more enjoyable and for those people enjoyment is paramount rather than hoisting a flag at the very top of the mountain named "fidelity".

I have not heard an MS but I don't doubt that it's a very fine tt, also up there with the best 1% of decks in the world. I would also like to bet though that it too has shortcomings, colourations or an assortment of strengths and weaknesses as well as a synergy for certain arms, carts and electronics and a equal and opposing dislike of others. The point here is that any bitching, nitpicking and fervent cruscades at this level are surely just politically or financially motivated. Choices at this lofty position are in my opinion much more to do with brand idenitity, perceived desireability and quality, dealer and importer support, longevity, ease of setup, maintenance, engineering prowess and of course - the big one - LOOKS. Every deck has shortcomings and these should always be either embraced or negated with the system setup, the system chain and room acoustics.

My advice to OP is to try and listen to both decks in the context of your own system and then decide yourself.

Brinkmann is sold in US. The dealers recommend putting them on Vibraplanes for proper isolation. They had been sold with HRS platforms. I've heard the Bardo compared to the Balance in the same system. I preferred the belt drive Balance. I bound the Bardo to be a bit thin and lean sounding. The Balance sounded more natural.

Is Brinkmann sold in USA? It is also black & heavy, but it has a no-drift-motor.

Raul,
Appreciate your advice. I can envision all the complexities, involved in integrating subs into the system, but fortunately, I have a professional acoustician (Synergy Audio&Video)doing an initial (and hopefully final) setup for me.
He knows my system and room very well, so I'm hoping for a great outcome.

Dear Maril555: Active subwoofers connected in true stereo fashion always are welcome in almost any audio system.

Thinking in " high voice " and if I was you I will connect those subwoofers running and crossing at around 80hz and the Duo subs running from 80 hz and up.
Now, if those JL are/have and can handle/run with high quality performance up to 170hz then I will by-pass the Duo subs. Normally good subs performs very well up to 100hz and maybe to run the JLs up to 170hz could be not very good idea. You have to check/test listen both options and decide.

IMHO the main target to achieve with active subs is not only better bass management but to achieve better mid-bass/mid-range and HF range. To achieve those targets the crossover frequency on the subs and the satellite is extremely critical as is to set up the right subs SPL in a way that the integartion be absolutely seamless/transparent where the subs appears only when the recording is asking for. This overall job take time and I mean time : not hours but several days and even weeks to be exactly " there ".

Only an opinion.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

In all fairness I have to note, that I like Albert's Technics with SME 312 S and Dynavector XV-1S.
As I've mentioned in my original post, I just want to try different design approach.
In the mean time, I'm focused on optimizing my room.
I have two JL Audio F112 subs on order, and then Steve of Synergy Audio& Video will be over to optimize the setup.
He's confident, we will be able to get rid of the residual room- related LF issues, improving bass performance at the same time.

Albert , I did many times, but I will keep these personal discussions with me.
Halcro, Agree - you can make the TW sound very good.

Thuchan is right about neither table being a 'plug & play'.
With the Raven in particular........I have found that its sound can change depending on how it is supported?
If it sits on a stand located on a suspended wood floor.......it can be susceptible to structure-borne feedback, and sound slow and bloated as some have described.
Even on a concrete floor....if that floor is suspended and not 'on-ground'....again the structure-borne feedback can be intrusive.
Once mounted on a wall-hung shelf (or Minus K stand)....the table can be delicate and nimble.
With most mats I have heard......the sound can sometimes feel compressed and unexciting?
Placing the record directly on the copper platter together with a heavy weight will improve the apparent 'speed' and 'colour' of the sound.
Thuchan is also right about the three motors.
With the Timeline.......the constancy of speed via the 3 motors is inferior to that with only 2 diametrically opposed motors.
The speed constancy will never match that of a fine DD deck like my Victor TT-101 and I have tried many different 'belts'.....from various silk threads to Dertonarm's 'magic' string.
The Ravens however are designed with a Delcrin platter which requires the rough side of the rubber belt to actually 'grip'...to maintain its speed control.
The strings and threads just 'slip' too much.
When the Raven has been 'tweeked' to sound its best......if can sound surprisingly similar to my TT-101......perhaps the most neutral and accurate deck I have ever heard?

10-22-12: Thuchan
Pcosta,
I never made any negative remarks about the TW designs. I know Thomas Woschnik from the very first beginning he started with his first tables in Germany and I also followed the successful landing in the US market by the activity of Joe Catalano.

Has anyone ask Thomas Woschnik what he thinks is the best turntable?

Maril 555,
for a good MS you don't need a new platter. Regarding extensions on both tables, MS and TW you need to work with (if you like), building up a nice solution and having fun and improvements by bringing in modifications. The other option is a plug & play solution which both tables do not offer.

regarding isolation platforms: it is a must. I would also go for separate platforms for the motor(s) and the table. If you do this there are no vibrations on original MS brass arm bases.

Every single resonance/vibrations of any type pass through that arm board/footers.

Raul has a point.....only if there is a direct connection between the 'footers' and the armboard support base?
It is not clearly evident to me.....that there actually IS a direct connection in either the MS or the AC tables (which share a similar armboard support concept)?
What IS clearly evident (in both tables).....is that the armboards are directly connected to (and supported by) the bases....ie plinths.
How much structure-borne feedback is allowed to travel through the supporting feet, into the plinth, into the armboard support and thence into the armboard itself....depends on so many factors that without supporting evidence......it would be a rash man who makes such a bold claim?
Nevertheless.....the fact that Continuum goes to so much trouble to 'isolate' their armboards from the plinth in the Caliburn and Criterion turntables.....indicates some obvious benefits in doing so?
In the absence of a really sturdy wall-hung shelf support for the turntable.....a Minus K isolation stand would always be an improvement for any deck...and owners of MS turntables seem to be unanimous in aclaiming the improvement from the use of such devices?

Raul makes an interesting point about controlling vibrations both internal and external. As both the MS and the AC-1 are unsuspended tables, I'm curious if Maril555 has considered some kind of isolation platform.

I used one under my unsuspended turntable and it made a tremendous difference.

Glai, I experimented with flywheel arrangements. By doing so I realized that the motor management is very important and needs a precise steering. I found it in the VPI SDS. I use the MS Motor (SX 8000 II) and the HS-80 ( 8000 II) in combination to control the vector forces. From my opinion whether one uses a TW or MS he should look for good and precise motors and an exact and stable motor management. I would not go for a three motor design.

Regarding the quality of MS tables I have seen big differences on the markets, in Japan, Germany, France and the US. It depends on age, care and usage. the best samples I have seen in Japan.

Dear Jaspert: My experiences and opinion about MS was way before I knew them, you can confirm it through some posts by me.

With the german group or with out it the fact that the arm board in the RX-5000/8000 are mounted just/directly on the TT footers where exist no single way of internal/external damping on any kind does not change the wrong wrong TT design if for no other factors by that one that makes a heavy degradation to the cartridge signal. Every single resonance/vibrations of any type pass through that arm board/footers.
What in the hell has to do the german group or not?, that's a fact a nocive fact for any cartridge mounted down there and you know what: that's what you are hearing: heavy distortions. The fact that you enjoy it menas almost nothing but that you like those distortions even if are bad ones and you can't do nothing to disappear it.

I know that you as Thuchan don't learned yet about and likes that wrong design and you know what?: that second platter they use as Dave use too help in nothing to the arm/footers MS degradation focus!!!!!

I'm not against any honest person and certainly against no single audio manufacturer what I'm against is of any high distortion focus and I share my opinion about.

I know that like me we need to learn many audio subjects, some of us took more time to others but at the end the success on audio systems depends on that audio learning subjects.

I posted several times for several years that the main differences in between home audio systems is how high or low are its distortions and to improve our each one system we need to learn we need to be aware of several kind of system generated distortions and its precise focus. In the MS case the arm board is one of the generation of distortions focus and that's why today I almost avoid to make no single serious test of any audio item through my MS one.

Certainly you posted what is a misunderstood of whom I'm. I hope that with this could be more precise and clear why I posted what I posted here or elsewhere.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul,
I try to learn new things too, sometimes it is not audio related. I happen to use my Micro to enjoy music, not as a "tool" to attack your personal pet hate, the German group. :)

Thuchan,

Nice to see your post.

From your website, I see you are using the VPI drive system on the MS table. Can you elaborate on the differences betw the VPI drive and MS drive?

Thanks

Best regards

i've owned TW AC-1 & currently own Micro SX-5000 (air bearing version of RX-5000).

both exhibit unique characteristics in my system (i've run 3 diff arms on both). TW generally sounds more "hifi" (slightly hyped-up leading edge & timbre/tonality is less varied as others hv also highlighted), while musical notes decay rather quickly with the Micro, & some may also find it less "pitch black" vis-a-vis TW. both table's shortcomings can be addressed (to some extent) via matching &/or tweaking. based on my priorities, i prefer the Micro table (sounds more natural + the decay issue can be easily addressed).

reliability wise, i've had problems with both. my TW had an issue with the motor controller - wouldn't store/save speed settings (required a chip replacement), while my Micro had a weak air pump which caused my platter's glass bottom to occasionally contact the base (required a pump motor replacement).

hope you find this feedback helpful. good luck with yr turntable search.

Pcosta, well said.

Maril555,

If you ever wind up somewhere near Tulsa, Ok, I can arrange both the RX-5000 and AC-1 in the same system for audition. It's a long way from Philly though. Just don't know where your travels take you.

You are correct. As dealer networks and audio shops continue to shrink, the day and age of the dealer/distributor/importer of certain lines make things exclusive to one source for purchase new or audition. Makes it difficult.

Peterayer,
I'll definetely try to listen to TW AC-1 in more controlled environement, maybe not in my own system. The logistics are going to be too complicated. I can't say the same about MS though, I don't know anybody in my area, who has one.
Any hints? I'm in Philadelphia.
I wanted to note, that one thing, i learned from this thread is that pretty much everyone here, including proponents of MS, agree on the "ringing platter" issue with stock MS.
It also seems, that to bring MS to it's max potential would require fairly extensive modifications- new platter, support system, etc. I'm not sure about the cost and availability of those.
You are right though about trying it in my own system.
I'm exposed to a fairly wide variety of systems through our Audio group, some of them include very well regarded TTs, such as Walker Black Diamond, Basis, Monaco, etc. But I wouldn't dare to even try passing judgements on the TTs in questions in the context of the unfamiliar system.
To me, it's seems impossible to tease out a contribution of one single component under those conditions.
It also seems, that to bring MS to it's max potential would require fairly extensive modifications- new platter, support system, etc. I'm not sure about the cost and availability of those.

Dear Peterayer: There is no Mexican group, things are that " the lion thinks that every one is like it ".

Problem with some persons like Thuchan is that read the posts but does not really read it and then can't understand it.

In the other side I think is not easy for Maril555 and for almost any one of us to have the opportunity to test both TTs in his system.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

What does a "good sample" mean? If there really is a "Mexican Group", who besides Raul is in it? This thread is leading to more questions than answers.

I think the Maril555 should try to audition the two tables in his system, learn for himself what the differences are and then report the results back in this thread. Then we might get somewhere.

Pcosta,
I never made any negative remarks about the TW designs. I know Thomas Woschnik from the very first beginning he started with his first tables in Germany and I also followed the successful landing in the US market by the activity of Joe Catalano. I think it is a great job they have done. They built up a remarkable business building upon some of the features of MS. What I don't get is the condemning of the technology of the big Micro Seikis by some of the followers. Some even never heard a big MS table and e.g. what Raul describes about his understanding of the "poor technology" of the MS tables makes me wonder if the Mexican Group really owns a good sample.

“Who gives a shit about all this stuff,” he said, holding the LP sleeve in the air, “if you can’t have this?”

Thank you for sharing, I was whining after reading ...
May I suggest, lots of Audiophiles I know, down a bottle of Redwine while listening to their records, it is much cheaper than any Update and PRaT is included.

Dear Jaspert: As any one I made audio mistakes too but as only a few of us I'm willing to learn each single day and I did it with those " stupid MS kilograms ": did you? not yet?

Dear Thuchan, I don't want to use more work with " stupid kilograms " where exist other better " land to cultivate ". You already know that I don't like the same distortions that you like it. As me you need to learn and for that you need " to want " to learn.

Btw, fortunately I have not a Mexican group as your german group.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Pcosta,

Great points about the TW North American importer. I think it can't be better described than by this link:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/high-water-sounds-and-ithe-architecture-lossi

I love the last quote by Jeff:

While the music washed over the still room, Catalano opened his eyes and motioned toward the system: “Who gives a shit about all this stuff,” he said, holding the LP sleeve in the air, “if you can’t have this?”

Well said, Jeff. Well said. They don't get more genuine than him.

Thuchan

My "stay happy with what you have status" brought me from an SME 30/2 to the TW AC-1 with no regrets.
This is not exchanging of ideas but a one street of condemnation of TW Acustic from my point of view.
I have a hard time buying the marketing line you guys keep feeding everyone since the importer in North America does not advertise or rarely lend out review samples to magazines or people to pimp out like some other highly pushed products, deserved or not. The people you guys call a "fan club" are happy owners that paid with their own hard earned cash. I have a hard time believing that many TW owners can be that wrong about their choice. I will leave it at that and perhaps do some listening. Cheers!

Sorry Jaspert. You allready have a RX-5000 :-)

Raul I will buy the MS RX-5000 off you and I can compare to my TW AC-3.

let me know

cheers

Raul,

To save yourself from looking "ignorant" by continuing to own the MS RX-5000, I would offer you 5000 Mexican peso to take that "stupid kilogram" Micro Seiki off your hand. How about that? ;)

Dear Pcosta,
i hope you are not pleading for a "stay happy with what you have status". But do understand and accept if you a not engaging in a controversial debate. In my case I could then stay at home and forget exchanging ideas.
Regarding the Micro Seiki supply line there are many dealers in Japan, Hongkong, on platforms - but the problem is these units are sometimes expensive because they are rare and well designed and of an excellent built quality. It is more comfortable to call a dealer asking for the latest design on new turntables around the corner... Everyone may decide what he is aiming at regarding musicality and technical satisfaction. We must accept that not everyone among us is looking for the best solution rather than the most accepted and well marketed product. Why not? Seriously!

Dear Raul,
my Micro Seikis SX 8000 II and the 8000 II have no problem with speed. Allnic and Timeline (red laser) stay still on the spot. Speed Stability is possible with these designs. You need to work with them. Maybe you did not in your Mexican Group. If you want sugestions you know my e-mail address.

In fairness to the MS RX-5000, the one I tried is stock with no mods except for a few replaced parts in the motor. Don't have specific details about it as the table is borrowed. I'm actually returning it this evening. It was fun to have it while I did.

Dear Maril555: Right, in my audio home system.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul,
You do have Micro Seiki RX-5000 in your own system right?

Maril555 wants only.....

Is the way to read, my mistake when writed.

R.

Dear friends: Controversies on the Raven here IMHO could be a little unfair for different reasons but was is unfortunated is that Rsf507 posted that always was interested and that after read this thread he will stay out of Raven!

IMHO we can't or is extremely hard to evaluate a TT as stand alone unit because the TT is only a link/part on a very wide audio chain where all those links in the chain are " culprit " of the final quality performance level.
We have to add here another critical subject and maybe this is the more important one: each one of us music/sound reproduction priorities/targets that normaly are not the same overall.

I know that some people like that german group Syntax always comes to almost any thread with an agenda as Dgdad posted and with Raven he as member of that german group always try to diminish in every way the Raven TT.

Now, one Raven " problem " that some of you are posting is that's unable to match the timeline speed accurately.
That could be or not ( some owners posted it match it. ) but I think there are other subjects that we have to take in count around what we are " hearing " or what we are experienced with our each one TTs:

as audiophiles IMHO no one of us know for sure if all the LPs we own were recorded accurately ( example. ) at 33.3333rpm or some one at 33.3332rpm or 33.34rpm and not only that but if were recorded accurately from the first groove through the last one in each LP.

Now, accuracy is a must to have on TT but as important is accuracy as is speed stability. Is it important that the Raven can runs at 33.3333....rpm? yes it is but in case it can't fulfil accurately and in case only can runs at: 33.33332rpm the most important issue here IMHO is not that speed unaccuracy but that that 33.33332rpm stay with out no single deviation in the short time ( groove after groove ) and through all the LP grooves.

I never had the opportunity to listen the Raven in my system but I heard it many times ( different models. ) and I can't say that something I don't like it was precisely because the Raven.

To follow blame the Raven IMHO do not help any one and could make more harm to some people like Rsf507.

There is no perfect TT and the Raven IMHO is way better than the stock MS RX-5000. I already posted why and one of the last posts here confirm it: Philb7777.
I have no agenda here as more of one here have it.

IMHO there is almost no engeeneering behind the RX-5000 other than " kilñograms " with no mercy. The motor was not made it by MS but Panasonic/Technics, the control unit electronics are really bad and that's why Philb7777 detected that the RX-5000 is worst on that speed subject than the Raven and I know is that way because I own the MS and I know several other RX-5000 ( I have to modify the electronics to stay in a decent way in that regards. ), the platter design is a " shame " for any TT, has no single way to dissipate any kind of resonances generated elsewhere: inside the TT and outside the TT ( kilograms does not works but only makes the things worst. Stupid kilograms!. ). The only " clever " characteristic on the MS is that cantilevered tonearm mount that gives facilities for almost any tonearm and four of them at the same time but because there is no " engeneering " behind the design they put those arm board in the worst place you can put on that design: exactly at the TT footers where those footers has no single way to damp nothing!!!

Yes, even that I own and respect MS items for its looking is one of the worst TT designs I saw in my audio life.

Anyway, Maril555 only can try something different on what he owns and with that target and as I already posted any alternative will be different for him and IMHO the Raven is a good one.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

I have stayed out of this "debate" for a number of reasons. One I don't care for the pointless arguments with people that are essentially strangers hiding behind a screen. Secondly I have never heard a Micro Seiki table.
I have had my TW AC-1 for several years now without an issue using my LYS GYRASCOPE to set speed. Is it Timeline accurate" I do not know. But we can debate endlessly about accuracy over musicality and how they might co-relate. Just as the debate of digital vrs analog or tubes vrs solid state, tubes and analog will continue to fail in the face of those other technologies according to the lab tests for accuracy.

My suggestion to any interested buyers is go and listen for yourself. The TW line is fairly accessable. Micro Seiki is accessable through Syntax's friends;)