A post I made on another forum about a decade ago, but relevant here: I wanted to share my experience with my Micro Seiki RX-5000 and resonance control of its heavy platter. I have seen posts here before about the bronze platter ringing. A member suggested that a simple hard rubber mat would be the answer. I tend to agree, but I found another approach that I do not see explicitly written about here. The concern is, of course, is that these resonances will color the mechanical pickup of groove modulations by the cartridge. The stylus, which is forced into motion by the music being played imparts opposing forces back into the vinyl and then into the platter. If the platter “answers back” with ringing at specific musical pitches and not at others, the cartridge will pick up these resonances too. You may not hear anything obviously amiss, since all transducers impart resonances, but they are there. Perhaps the best test is to play well-recorded piano which runs up and down the scales. Notes exciting resonances may sound slightly louder, with more smearing and sustain. When resonances are vanquished, the music flows with more ease and naturalness, all music, not only piano. Of course resonance control is valid for more than just platters - tonearms, cartridges, speakers and rooms matter too. I have heard an argument that the forces imparted into the platter by the stylus must be so weak that they can’t possibly excite the heavy platter. Large heavy objects are moved by tiny forces. The motion is just correspondingly tiny. It’s all about relative proportionality. True, the excitations and resonant responses are very small, but then the cartridge is designed to pick up tiny groove modulations that can be measured in the Angstroms. And we follow that transducer with huge amounts of preamp gain. So, as weak as the excitations are, a phonograph system is equally sensitive in picking up their responses. If you gently rap a turntable platter (even with a record on top) you can get a sense of its resonant properties. A sharp rap (perhaps with a plastic-tipped object like the handle of a screw driver) can impart a pretty good approximation of an impulse excitation into the object being tested. This impulse (an approximation of the "Dirac delta" function) excites the object equally at all frequencies and therefore excites resonances without having to perform a sine-wave sweep as excitation. With a microphone or an accelerometer and an FFT spectrum analyzer, you can see discrete frequencies representing resonances at the various modes of vibration. The original gun metal bronze 5000 platter exhibits a primary bell-like resonance at 855 Hz. I’m guessing that this mode is due to the comparatively thin horizontal deck (just under the groove area) acting as a spring and the heavy peripheral ring as the mass. There are other modes too, but they are down much farther in level. The next most significant resonance is a damped one at 2258 Hz. There is nothing unusual here. All platters will exhibit resonances; it’s just the physics of things. Micro Seiki offered a “copper” mat called the CU-180, which some of you may know about. This 1.8kg device is very popular with the Panasonic SP-10 crowd, but it can be useful with heavyweights like the RX-5000 too. Suspended by itself with something like a screwdriver shaft through its hole so that it is free to move (like a cymbal), it exhibits numerous resonances, at 51, 132, 312, 549, 844, 1182 and 1569 Hz and several spread higher in frequency. Think of it as a flat and thick cymbal. It might not seem promising, but it is. The magic comes when you place a CU-180 on top of the RX-5000’s gunmetal platter. The pairing is completely devoid of readily measurable resonances. Together they comprise a constrained layer mechanism. The CU-180 must be perfectly flat so that is sits on the 5000 platter with no gaps or rocking. Never drop or bend a CU-180 because you’ll never get it perfectly flat again! The improvement can be demonstrated easily. If you rap on the bare platter, you’ll clearly hear the pitch of the 855 Hz mode. When you rap on a suspended CU-180, you’ll hear the multiple pitches combining into a sound roughly reminiscent of a cymbal. Now combine the two pieces, and rap on the copper mat. A dead thud. It sounds like knocking on a concrete wall. The two devices have constrained each other from exhibiting their natural resonances. Next, remove the CU-180, and then place a rubber mat of your choice back onto the patter. Rap again, and you’ll hear the muted, but still quite audible, 855 Hz mode. I have used a Fulton Kinetic Barrier mat, a very thick and well damped rubbery mat. It does reduce the ringing (shortening its duration), but the CU-180 quenches it completely. Lately I have been playing with a sandwich. First the CU-180 is placed on the platter, then the Fulton mat (or a Micro Seiki leather mat) is placed on top of the CU-180 (minding the VTA adjustments). I have also experimented with the record sitting directly on the CU-180, and weighted down by the 1kg Micro Seiki ST-10 gun metal disc stabilizer . This weight forces the LP to sit on the copper mat’s surface tightly, with no air gaps that could cause buzzing or unchecked resonances. I have not yet formed hard conclusions about which configuration I prefer sound-wise, but I’m leaning toward the CU-180 without any compliant mat at all, in terms of pace and rhythm. One risk of any rubber mat or other compliant mat is that its top surface can shift in the shear mode relative to its bottom surface (without actually sliding) as stylus drag changes with groove modulation. Thus speed is thus slightly modulated by groove modulation, more like in a light platter table. I believe that if the record is held tightly and directly against the heavy platter surface with its high inertial momentum, the speed is less perturbed. More listening needed. So, I can recommend that other 5000 owners experiment with the CU-180. As always, though, YMMV. ******************************* Chapter Two: Recently I had machinist Mirko Djordjevik make me a new 5000 platter out of 316L stainless steel. As most of you know, the platters on the last mega tables from Micro Seiki were made from stainless steel. The exterior dimensions and appearance are the same as the original 5000, but I had him bevel the inside edge of the peripheral ring to reduce the cantilevering compliance, and also we thickened the horizontal deck (just below the groove area). Mass went from about 16kg in the gunmetal platter to about 22.4kg in the new stainless platter. That’s roughly going from 36 to 49 pounds. We both believe that the spindle bearing can handle the higher mass. The new platter is a beautiful thing to behold, and tarnishing will no longer be a concern. The only resonance I could pick up was a well-damped one at 1667 Hz, which is about one octave higher than in the original platter, but lower in magnitude with little sustain. With the CU-180 on top, even that resonance was squelched entirely, and once again the sandwich is quite quiet. I have yet to spend time auditioning the new platter. > > |
Micro-Seiki tables were the best belt drives of their time. You may use different motors and upgrade if you know how to do. Raul has never learned how to do it with this table. Not that he is completely wrong on the table ´s musicality but he ignores basic aspects in phono. Talking about ignorance and distortion brings him in a philosophical circle where he is well placed. Unfortunately this story will never stop but MS deserves a place in phono history! |
@edgewear I am coming pretty late to this topic so I apologize in case I tell you something you have found out yourself in the meanwhile.
In Europe, there is quite a cult of MS tables, particularly the RS and SX models. I can understand why. As you've already precisely distinguished, there are 1. tables inspired by the RX-5000, such as the TW Acustic, 2. the attempt at perfecting an exact copy by the dutch-german project you mentioned (www.micro-seiki.nl), and 3. the copycat made of aluminum by the Hong Kong audio company Amari (marketed in the west as Hanss Acoustics). AFAIK some exemplars of the Chinese copycat are brought to Germany
and then heavily moded
by Acoustical Systems - particularly bearing, platter, and motor. |
millercarbon, Your story about organ transplantation in China is certainly horrifying. Why haven't we read about this practice in the free American press? Even Chinese political dissidents who have successfully escaped from China have not described the practice of stealing organs from live people that you outline. Just wondering.
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When I spoke of plundering I meant in the sense of stealing ideas culture art etc. If u want to go political then that is a never ending list for starters:
australians vs aborigines
Irish v native Americans
Sinhalese v Tamils
east. V west pakistan
the wealth of Britain and the west was built upon workhouse exploitation of the poor - we may be enlightened now - so let’s preach to the Chinese. Don’t automatically assume that the person making the micro is in a poorhouse - he may be making good money from it and if it’s a copy then so what - it won’t diminish the value of the real thing - ideas are often borrowed - that’s life nobody lives in a bubble
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My Melody integrated amp was made in China. A very fine tube integrated. Beautiful, and a bargain at $2500. Australia based company designed it. Made in China in a factory where the workers live upstairs, because between the hours they work and the money they aren't paid that's all they can afford. I knew some of this at the time but the rest I only learned much later.
Its hilarious you mention plunder, because that is exactly what China, or the CCP anyway, is all about. There is no rule of law. Instead there is only the rule of the CCP. No labor laws, no environmental laws, nothing at all really which is how they are able to plunder intellectual and trade secrets, not to mention things like a whole pharmaceuticals industry manufacturing narcotics shipped all over the world.
China provides the best organ transplants in the world. Right now in China anyone arrested is tissue-typed and ultra-sounded and logged into a database. So then when your match comes up they arrest you again, only this time you get strapped down and your organs removed, without anesthetic. A gruesome death for you to be sure but beautiful fresh organs for someone with money. Talk about plunder.
Myself, I found a lot of this hard to believe at first. Right now though I'm living with a Chinese national who works internationally, has family there, returns frequently. There is no longer any doubt. This ain't the half of it either.
But its enough to want to slap down hard on anyone with such foolish notions of what it means to buy goods made in China.
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I do find it hilarious when people in Europe and America deride the Chinese, or any other non Anglo - European civilisations for efforts after having plundered the culture and civilisations from those very countries... Yet china manufactures most of the worlds household electronics and batteries that are used in houses all over the world - why not bring some of the economies of scale to the majority or at least a wider audience. I think that Amari make a very good Seiki lookalike that @syntax uses.
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Dear @ferrari275: """ famed RX 5000 belt drive remains relevant even today from both a playback perspective and engineering point of view.
Solid design. Ultra high analog playback capability. """
IMHO no one of those characteristics in your statement are really true but the other way around.
The RX 5000 is way way different design to the SX models and there is no comparison in between on each one quality performance levels.
R.
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It may be just a coincidence, but looking through the various reports of
the recent Munich high end event I've noticed no fewer than four (!)
different turntables that all look suspiciously like the Micro RX-5000 Makes sense. Fundamentally, Micro Seiki's famed RX 5000 belt drive remains relevant even today from both a playback perspective and engineering point of view. Solid design. Ultra high analog playback capability. Nothing superfluous, timeless really. |
@amg56, your analogy with old cars is sort of interesting. It seems to me that all the electronics and software in modern cars put up a barrier between the driver and the actual driving experience. Yes, everything is much more sophisticated, but is it also more real?
Might the same be happening in audio? While the limitations of early digital were painfully obvious, I was nonetheless able to enjoy the music. But the exponential increase of digital processing power hasn't improve my listening enjoyment and it seems that the higher the bit rates, the more manipulated it sounds. It is a barrier between the music and the listener. You hear every detail, but it's just a lot of information (a 'data dump'). The musical message seems to be 'lost in translation'.
With analog audio this should be different, as the source material is untouched by digital manipulation (unless of course you buy those vinyl reissues pressed from digitalized sources). But perhaps to some extend all these computer aided tools do more harm than good in designing turntables, tonearms and cartridges as well?
It touches on the many 'thorny' questions around digital technology. I'm not a Luddite, but I don't belong to the 'technology will make everything better' crowd either. I try to be mindfully optimistic, perhaps against my better judgement. If a singularity is inevitably and we get this intelligence explosion, what will it mean for the human listening experience?
For this analog forum it might all come down to this question: what will the first AI designed turntable sound like? Will we enjoy it as much as we will enjoy 'driving' autonomous vehicles?
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Wrongly designed or not, I rather like my 8000, at least more so than 90% of the turntables being made today. I'd take the "higher distortion/coloration levels" of the arms you don't like over the MS tonearms any day, and you can continue enjoying well damped accuracy of MAX-282 if that's what you think you are hearing |
Dear @opus111 : """
Is this a joke? Having owned 1500, 5000, and 8000 I am a MS fan but the 237 and 282 arms are by far the most overrated tonearms of all time, and nowhere near the level of their better turntables. They sound thin, sterile, and downright unmusical....."""
That you owned all those MS TT models and that you think are really good only speaks that you are totally unaware of all its design faults and that you like all the distortions degradation the TTs makes to the cartridge signal.
In that statement you confirm what I'm saying on what you like it when you said that the MX MS tonearm models sound: thin, sterile and dowrigth unmusical ". Well, first than all a tonearm must has not sounds by it self, I owned too the MAX models and are very good tonearms and very well damped and maybe is because of this that you did not like it because you like higher distortion/coloration levels. .
Good for you are still a MS TT fan, this fact only says you are a fan of a wrong designed TT.
R. |
My keyboard acts like English is it's 5th language. For those who thought I might be mimicking someone, let me repeat it properly: @edgewear Both my MS TTs and the Kuzma have platter spindle and/or the leg suspensions sitting in a small niche of oil. This dampens the negative vibrations and overall, as I have nothing better to compare (except for my Nakamichi which is also oil dampened). I've never done a 1 on 1 with more expensive TTs. I think my TT may hold their own, but there are a whole lot of pieces that make a whole on audio. And those pieces all need to be compatible.
I rushed my next message to get out and drive my wife to work. Like anything in this hobby, don't rush things and take your time. @rauliruegas I realise English is not your 1st language and your posts reflect this. However this is not a criticism. Your phrasing and wordage are quaint, and that makes for an interesting picture I have of you. There are times you can see the way a person writes can describe the person more than the content itself. Raul, you strike me as a very passionate man who is VERY knowlegible in audio by way of experience in being able to collect and own (and sell) so much audio equipment. Additionally, I know you have such an extensive and desirable vinyl collection, such that you can use these to test and trial any equipment using the same known test material. Raul, I do respect you, your knowledge and your contributions. As I said previously, I was not trying to disrespect you, and what I wrote was insensitive. @opus111 I don't have an extensive knowledge of tonearm performances especially with many different cartridges. Technology has moved on and manufacturers now have extensive modelling tools to emulate operational performance even before one hits its vinyl test target. I see the difference between an arm like the MAX-237 and modern day top flight arms, like the muscle cars of the 60s/70s and the cars today. A VW Golf GTI would put most older muscle cars to shame. But the older cars still are desirable because of their character. Some new arms are good, but too clinical if you understand what I mean. Cheers. A. |
Dear @cleeds : I take your point. Normally in my country is not an insult but could be an insult depending with whom we are speaking and if that the discussion is hot but already gone out of civilised maturity and out of " control ".
In the other side each single learning " audio lesson we have the opportunity to achieve will mades that we can grow up in our hobby, it's not an insult try to learn or tell some one that needs to learn because not only in audio subjects but in any life day by day subjects exist an specific learning ladder and each step we are going up we are growing up.
That's what my common sense dictates to me but each one has his own common sense and of course different country culture.
Btw, I want to let very clear that when I use the word ignorant my first and main meaning is that we only has to go deeper in the subject we are discussing to learn and be or not aware of what we are discussing.
I never use ignorant/ignorance words to insult any one everywhere in the audio forums.
I think that for all of us always is good to have a open attitude willing to learn that permits two critical audio " things: grow up that means too that in that audio subject under discussion our ignorance level goes down and both achievements are true advantages for any one of us.
That's the way I think/common sense with no culture in between, we all are mature human beens .
So, even that some discussions can goes truly hot I NEVER try to insult any one.
R. |
@edgewear Both my MS TTs and the Kuzma have platter spindle and/or except my the leg suspensions sitting in a small niche of oil. This dampens the negative vibrations and overall, as I have nothing better to compare (Nakamichi which is also oil dampened). I've never done a 1 on 1 with more expensive TTs. I think they would hold their own. @rauliruegas I realise English is not your 1st language and your post show this. However this is not a criticism. You phrasing and wordage is quaint, and what's more, you are VERY knowlegible in Audio. For this I respect you. |
My assessment of the MAX-237 and 282 arms comes from a direct experience of having owned both of them. I bought a NOS MAX-282 brand new sealed in the box with 3 different armwands from a dealer many moons ago. I was so disappointed at the sound it produced that I thought there was something wrong with it. Aware of all the accolades and hype, I figured something must be wrong with it so I ended up buying another one to compare, but it sounded equally bad. The only good thing was I sold them on Ebay for a lot more than what I paid for them, but I honestly felt guilty selling them because they sound so bad.
Love the way they are made and look, but they are simply poor sounding. Their used price has nothing to do with the way they sound and everything to do with the myth and rarity.
The only other audio component that ended up being as disappointing was the Lamm L-1 preamp which was highly rated when first came out. Talk about a sterile sounding preamp!
I'd take SME 3012, Ortofon RMG(A), Pioneer Exclusive EA-03 (now this is a great tonearm), not to mention many of the great modern tonearms, over the 237 and 282 any day.
Just because it is highly sought after and fetches good money doesn't mean it sounds good. Another example of highly overrated arm is FR-66(S) but at least it sounds good (thought not worth $6000+).
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Opus, I respect your opinion, but you do realize that you are the one who is in the minority in your dislike of the M – S tonearms. The value of the tone arms in the used market place is a testimony to the fact that both of them are very highly sought after. This is not to say you are either right or wrong in your opinion of them. Because I have never heard either. Just based on hearsay evidence accumulated over many years of reading these online forums, I would venture to say that the goodness of the M – S turn tables is a more controversial topic than is the question of the merits of the tonearms.
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For any of you who may not be aware, English is not Raul's first language. So in this case I think he might be given some slack for using "ignorant" in the strict dictionary sense. As cleeds points out it does suggest something different in common, everyday usage.
At the same time, I met Raul some years ago and found him to be very courteous and knowledgable in person. Unfortunately many of his comments do not read that way. I attribute that to his passion for the subjects of music and audio but believe while he tries hard, English as a second language must be difficult when there can be so many meanings behind a given word or phrase. As he said himself several times, we all have much to learn here.
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The best of MS TTs are its looking but not its overall quality performance. In the other side the MAX 237/282 tonearms are really a reference product an a true challenge to any today tonearm designs.
Is this a joke? Having owned 1500, 5000, and 8000 I am a MS fan but the 237 and 282 arms are by far the most overrated tonearms of all time, and nowhere near the level of their better turntables. They sound thin, sterile, and downright unmusical. A cheap Rega 250 sounds better...far better |
rauliruegasTime to learning. Why incomplete? where is my ignorance of that word? can you help about? While your use and dictionary definition of the word "ignorant" is literally correct, the word has a cultural nuance that is apparently lost in translation. Calling someone "ignorant" about anything - even if true - is usually considered an insult. The same is true if you tell someone they need to "grow up." |
Dear @cleeds : Time to learning. Why incomplete? where is my ignorance of that word? can you help about?
R. |
Dear @amg56: No, you are not insult me even if you or any one else post that I’m stupid I don’t took it as an insult if that person tells me in the same post why I’m stupid.
I know for sure that I can be ignorant on some audio subjects and that’s why I always am willing to learn from everywhere.
For many years now my day by day attitude is always this: make in deep tests on every single post I read all over the internet audio forums, it does not matters that those posts came from an audio rookie. Of course that I make the tests on what I can test or that my room/audio system permit it.
I almost never post anything where I did not have first hand experiences and not only that but almost always challenge other audiophiles to try it before they give me " negative " answers or that posts only theories with out trying their self what are posting.
You can be sure that what I post exist a good reason to do it and that normally the audiophile expression: " that’s the way I like it " never is the foundation of my posts. I have to stay perfectly sure of what I’m posting even if is contrary of what you or other gentlemans are accustom to.
My best self question ( every day. ) is: what if I wrong?, this challenge question permit me to test different alternatives in an audio subject till I can prove that I’m wrong or confirm I’m in the rigth road. I always are unbiased with any audio subject, no matter what.
I never gave / give any single advise where I never tested or satisfied with. You can be sure about.
Problem in internet audio forums is that almost no one wants to make tests on something they are not accustom to: against his believes. This is the real problem: stays sticky on several wrong believes that just stop each one growing up and music true enjoyment.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
@rauliruegas, thank you for the explanation. English is not my native tongue, so perhaps I was ignorant of the correct meaning. I stand corrected!
I’m not a member of the ’Congregation of MS Acolytes’ and their products are not at all sacrosanct to me. Even so, trial and error have convinced me that even the humble RX-1500 sounds better TO ME than the various modern turntable I’ve tried. These had cost me more, albeit nowhere near the $40k of the table you endorsed. For the people who are prepared to invest that kind of money in a turntable I should hope they get better sound than the RX-5000 or its derivates that cost less than $10k. But such a comparison doesn’t make any sense (I can think of 40.000 reasons why......).
About those Micro plateaus. When I first installed it I was horrified about the ringing. As expected, when used ’naked’ it really sounded terrible. Adding the standard issue DISK-SE rubber mat ’killed’ the ringing to some extend, but it effectively ’killed’ the music too. So at first I was very disappointed about the sound quality (and about the purchase I might add).
Then someone was kind enough to inform me that I really needed to add the CU-180 (or CU-500) copper mat. It took some effort finding it, but I’m glad that I did. Things immediately fell into place. The uncontrolled and restless sound of the ’naked’ plateau disappeared, while retaining the liveliness and dynamics that were killed with adding a rubber mat (or cork, or leather, I tried all usual suspects). The resulting sound of this gunmetal/copper ’sandwich’ (a kind of constrained layer damping avant la lettre?) must have been fully intentional.
Many manufacturers in the 80’s were using various materials to dampen their plateaus (e.g. my Pioneer PL-70L II has some bituminous material underneath it). We can safely assume that Micro was perfectly aware of this and apparently decided against it.
So my assumption is that they left their gunmetal (and stainless steel) plateaus undamped on purpose. My listening experience suggest as much, BUT I do think that these copper mats should have been an integral part of the package and should never have been sold separately as an ’add on’ accesory.
The unfortunate result of this faulty marketing strategy is that there are probably many Micro owners out there who do not hadve the copper mat and consequently have no idea what their table is supposed to sound like.
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rauliruegasYou really have a misunderstood on those words: stupid and
ignorance, because both are way different and the meaning is totally
different. We're aware of that Raul. It's clear that English isn't your first language, so let me be polite and simply explain that your understanding of the word "ignorant" is incomplete and rather ignorant itself, notwithstanding your reference to an English dictionary.
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Dear @edgewear: You really have a misunderstood on those words: stupid and ignorance, because both are way different and the meaning is totally different. Ignorance level on any life subject means only to be unaware of that subjects or its ignorance level is higher in that subject that other person but ignorance just DOES NOT MEANS that person is stupid. No way, stupid word is used on very different sentences by any of us. You can read here about: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/stupidhttps://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/stupidI own many vintage audio items that I bougth not because I'm stupid but because I was totally ignorant of the facts that many of those vintage were behind in its true quality level performance and was years before that I learned about an puts some on sale and been sold. But I have to learn and took me several years to do it and in the mean time I was not only hap´py with but exited to own it. What happened when I learned ( step by step/tests. ) about?: simple that my ignorance levels on those different subjects improved and lowering that ignorance level. After learned with the MS TT you can be sure that today I don't receive it not even as a gift no matter what ( only to put on sale and make money with. ). You said: "
I’m sure this will also be the case with the heavier plateau of the RX-5000, although you might need the heavier CU-500 mat for this. But Micro apparently knew very well what they were doing......""" that statement speaks that you think tha " MS knew very well what they are doing.."". Certainly MS did not know what they were doing because if they knew what they were doing never been designed that terrible ringing platter, the design is FAULTY just from the begining. They were ignorant about, had not awareness on the subject but were not stupid. Btw, NO ONE is stupid only because is ignorance level is high against other person that's lower and of course that exist persons that are unaware/ignorant of something and at the same time stupid. Stupid is a person not able to learn for whatever reasons. So, ignorance is not synonimous of stupid. R.
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@amg58, I forgot that the BL-91L originally had different and more substantial feet to begin with. Perhaps these were the MSB-100, I’m not sure. But the standard feet on the BL-91 are really crappy in my opinion. From the description of your cherished 91L I’d say you made a great deal on it! Oh, and could you please tell me where you sourced those improved belts?
This conversation has been characterized as just an ’ode’ to Micro (subtext: an ode to ourselves for having such excellent tastes), while much of what has been exchanged is about making improvements. But the basic design and engineering principles were apparently ’sound’, especially considering their age. Some of us can appreciate this achievement. Maybe it’s just ’nostalgia for the old folks’, as we are becoming ’vintage’ ourselves. But - again - it might also be the reason why some modern brands are still taking ’inspirational cues’ from some of these designs.
@rauliruegas, I guess I’m taking the bait again, but your ’defense’ is weak. The dictionairy may be ’fact’ in your universe, but language is a living thing. In everyday speech used by us regular folks, being ’ignorant’ generally means the same as being ’stupid’. Are you trying to convince us that you don’t know this?
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@edgewear My BL-91L has the top line MSB-100 feet on it. The
plinth was meticulously rebuilt and restored back to original condition and
balance. It was then re-veneered with 3 mil South American Mahogany, re-stained
and sealed with 4 coats of hand applied satin polyurethane. The
platter on the turntable has been upgraded to solid gunmetal with additional
mass added to the underside. (This is a $2200.00 upgrade). The platter weighs 22
lbs (10 Kg's) and it has been re-ground and polished to a mirror finish by
MIRROR FINISH POLISHING in Kearny, Missouri. The platter was then sealed
and two coats of protectant added. The original Micro Seiki DISK-SE platter mat is also included. Two
new "proper" sized belts were obtained because of the additional
weight of the gunmetal platter. The inexpensive BL-91 belts would not work as
well. The belt used is just slightly longer and stiffer. Cheers. A.
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@rauliruegas I didn't mean to insult you directly. I was trying to point out that saying someone is ignorant, as akin to saying they are uneducated, or lacking knowledge or awareness in general, unsophisticated. I am not going into an English lesson here and I apologise if I offended you. |
Dear @amg56: """
I would not use the term or call people "ignorant" or call them out over their "ignorance". It is a demeaning term which will raise the heckles of anyone. """ Why is that?. If I or you don't know the chinese language then you and me are ignorant of that language because we just don't know about/we do not learned that language. So we are ignorant on chinese language. If we speak a little of that language then we are ignorant but with a lower level thatn the ones that can't speak or understand not a single word. What's wrong with those? it's an insult? why people come " angry " when when read the word ignorance/ignorant. Please tell me if I'm wrong and why I'm wrong. here it's the definition of that word: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ignoranceAttitudes like yours or edgewear against that word for me is a real ignorance of the definition of the word in a dictionary, I'm not trying to diminish any one. I posted that I'm ignorant in spme/several audio susbjects and that edgewear could be less ignorant than me in some audio subjects. Where is that " big deal " ? I think that if something is black color you can't name it blue or white but black because this is the color !! Don't you think? We are here and elsewhere to learn day by day , this is whatm permit me to grow-up and to tame my ignorance levels and this is the main, important and critical subject for any true audiophile and not to stay for ever sticky on our each one believes because the world and audio world is no exception is in constant movement and changing and we need to addapt to the true " news " subjects. That's the way I'm. Bpolleti, yes are facts that you are not yet aware of it. R. |
My original point was that apparently some reputable brands have issued new models that could be regarded as an 'ode' to Micro. I thought it would be interesting to know how these would compare to the original, but apparently nobody has any information on this yet.
The ensuing thread went all over the map, sometimes informative and entertaining, sometimes less so. As you say, there's nothing wrong with that I suppose.
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At least the arguments keep the thread up front for a longer time, which leads to an opportunity for more arguments, which leads to lengthening the life of the thread and the number of posts, which is kind of entertaining. And sometimes informative. Raul is a contrarian. He stirs the pot. Otherwise, this thread would be nothing but an ode to Micro-Seiki. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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@amg56, finding original Micro R-15 feet will be very difficult, but as an alternative I can recommend www.micro-Seiki.nl. They can supply exact stainless steel replicas for a reasonable price and they have even designed accompanying (non original) spiked dishes to go underneath. A great package that works very well. I should add that my RX-1500 is placed on a wall mounted support, so footfalls and other floorborn resonances cannot interfere with mass loading the table. My BL-91 still has the original aluminum plateau (although it does have a Puresound Tenuto gunmetal mat on top), but the source mentioned above can also supply exact replicas of the RT-2000 plateau in either brass or stainless steel (not yet gunmetal, as this apparently is not currently available in large enough chunks suitable for CNC machining). So that is an upgrade path I still aim to take. |
@nandric I read constantly., particularly research material. It's one thing to go into detail when reviewing mundane topics like shortcuts to cryptographic attacks due to the development of Quantum Computing, another thing to read verbose and often incorrect comments from @rauliruegas . He does tend to comment as it his opinions were facts. If he wants OUR opinion, he will give it to us.
This is audio, after all. We doan need no steenkun philosophy. ;-) |
@bpoletti , If you don't understand the importance of (very) large books you can't understand Russian literature or German philosophy (grin). |
@edgewear The feet on my BL-91L are not the originals. They are MS feet but are about 3" dia. I was told but need to dig out the original emails The gunmetal platter is about 13kgs and the table about 23.5 kgs. I have levelled the table via the platter and have set the MA-505LS arm and original MS-505 head shell with MC1 cartridge via the specs. It sounds very good to my ears. I may look at uprating the feet in the future but all is well so far. The DDX-1500 is a different story. It does have the original feet and the lot weighs in around 45kgs. I will be looking at uprated feet on it before I put into regular service. I'll look into these once I get a few of the regular bills out of the way. Cheers. A. |
’I don’t know what I don’t know and think that I know what I know, but how do I know which is which?’
This pretty much sums up my agnostic position in life as much as in audio. Is this blissful ignorance or am I just kidding myself?
@amg56, the BL-91 is a very nice table, but are you using it with the original feet? I discovered that this table can be elevated to a different level by replacing them with something more substantial. I’m using four Finite Elemente Cerabase footers now. This may be stretching it, as these retail for almost as much as I paid for the table. But I had these lying about doing nothing, so it was an easy choice. I’m sure there are alternatives that are more cost effective and still give you the option of levelling the table and - here comes that dreaded word again - MASS loading the table.
Speaking of which, this might also be an interesting option for your DDX-1500. I believe it has the same spring loaded feet as the RX-1500. I replaced these with the R-15 stainless steel feet for - oh dear, here it comes again - MASS loading the table. That proved to be a nice improvement!
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I would not use the term or call people "ignorant" or call them out over their "ignorance". It is a demeaning term which will raise the heckles of anyone. It challenges a persons knowledge, that they know nothing about the subject or opinion being discussed. Helping a person or the group involved to understand a point of view or pointing out or adding to the discussion, adding to the threads knowledge would be a better and more constructive way of making the thread less challenging. We are all here to learn and we accept constructive discussion, rather than being pontificated upon. I like to share my knowledge, but am grateful for others to share their experiences. But I wouldn't call contributors "ignorant", unless it was plainly obvious. I have a little more respect than that. |
@rauliruegas Do you think you could shorten your comments to around the length of, say, "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" or maybe "War and Peace"? Being concise has its advantages. |
Dear @edgewear: IGNORANCE is part of each one of us audiophiles, no one is totally free of some levels of ignorance in audio subjects. That way I’m ignorant in several audio subjects where perhaps your ignorance level is lower and mine is higher. Always is that way with any one in audio and that includes reviewers, manufacturers and retailers/distributors.
Btw, I’m not dogmatic, things are that in some subjects your ignorance levels are higher than mines and you think ( there ) you are rigth when en reality are wrong. Sometimes that happens with me too ( the other way around ) depending on what subject we are talking about.
How can we lower our ignorance levels in some audio subjects? plain and simple: learning about but for this we have to have a positive and open attitude and not that kind of negativity you showed here about and I have to tell you that I understand your attitude because you think you are rigth even if not and this is the problem: your problem that impedes to learn.
"""
you can easily hear the difference between the fairly light weight wooden plinth of the BL-91 and the ’heavy metal’ approach of the RX-1500 (and likewise the RX-5000).
Contrary to what others have said here, I definitely prefer the ’heavy metal’ approach of the RX-1500, which is why I have an interest in the even heavier RX-5000. """
well you prefer the heavy weigth approach because you don’t understand yet the terrible disadvantages in a non damped all metal heavy weigth approach and this has a name: ignorance, that’s all and your statements about are wrong.
Everything the same the main quality level performance differences in TTs is how well is damped the TTs: chasis, foots, platter, arm boards and the like and re member that it does not matters how much heavy be a metal TT platter during play motion it generates vibrations it self that your ears can’t detect but the LOMC cartridges can and shows it.
Your example of the BL-91 against your 1500 is way fulty s comparison nd is not good foundtion for your sttement. Think about and ask your self why is faulty.
The best of MS TTs are its looking but not its overall quality performance. In the other side the MAX 237/282 tonearms are really a reference product an a true challenge to any today tonearm designs.
" What’s the point of your endorsement of a $40k turntable for people interested in a RX-5000 or one of its clones? """
Well the main point is that the original 5000 is ( by origen. ) a faulty design as the 1500 for all what I pointed out and that exist clones of it is not a good news for any audiophile but only to those that are ignorant of those facts.
"""
High end audio is all about ’luxury trophies for the rich’ these days, just like designer bags for the girls and wrist watches for the boys. The more expensive, the better the trophy. """
maybe for some whealthy gentlemans but for whealthy true audiophiles not because their audio ignorance levels is way lower and they know what and why to buy audio items, they don’t buy because is expensive but because true quality level performance. You can be sure that this kind of whealthy true audiophiles never spend a dime for a massive heavy weigth all metal TTs no matters if the price is 100k or 300K. They have very good knowledge levels.
""" but when you add a CU-180 copper mat ..... """,
do you really think that adding mass/weigth trhough that mat problem is solved, no only that the rpoblem suffer some changes and increment in other ways what the cartridge can " hear "/pick-up.
""" Mr. Ikeda designed tonearms and cartridges decades ago that still put many of the current high priced ’luxury trophies’ to shame. """
maybe with his cartridge designs but ceratinly not with his undamped tonearms designs.
Think for a moment: if TT damping characteristic is so critical an important for a tonearm is way more critical/important due that the cartridge is atached to it.
@edgewear, look that I’m not talking of what we like it or not but only simple facts why somethings are wrong.
What you or me like it has no importance in what I’m talking/sharing here.
Ignore what our ignorance levels says only makes us more ignorants and with no hope of learning to grow up.
As @lewm posted:
""" Part of the fun of this hobby is making these sorts of choices for onesself. """
he, me or Halcro learned through of that.
@tomwh , how did you learn all audio subjects?, by osmosis?.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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Guys, sorry for perhaps stirring this pot (or should that be ’pod’?) unintentionally. I’ve learned over the years that just about everything in audio has an effect on sonic quality, especially in analog. Arm pods, turntable mass, null points, the list is endless.
Taking an agnostic position is probably wiser than a dogmatic one, in audio as much as life in general. Trial and error is what amateurs like myself have to go by. In that journey I’ve recently learned much from the members of this forum, which seem(ed) to include some real experts kind enough to share their knowledge.
However, some dogmatic characters on this forum have a real talent for being obnoxious, by accusing everyone with a different opinion of being ignorant (in capital letters just in case we miss the point). I suppose veteran members of this forum have learned to ignore these ’contributions’, which is probably what I should have done as well.....
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Tom, I respect your knowledge and your opinions, but you cannot have it both ways with respect to others' opinions. Do you believe that null points are LESS important than platter mass? And when it comes to platter mass, is more always better? Why? You've evidently read the debates about outboard arm pods. I was a staunch proponent of the theory that the tonearm must be subject to the same external energy as the bearing/platter, so the two always respond in unison, and I still prefer that approach. However, there are good arguments to the contrary, and I've come to believe that outboard pods done very well can also work very well, provided at least that the pod rests on the same surface as the turntable and is massive. So, what's the point of your sarcasm on that subject? Are these subjects simply undebatable gospel? Part of the fun of this hobby is making these sorts of choices for onesself. Halcro and I are on opposite sides of the pod discussion, but I consider him a friend, and his arguments have moved me a bit in his direction. If you look at changes he's made in his system, it appears he too was affected by these discussions.
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AMG56, Thanks. I have learned something. The DDX1500 looks like a typical belt-drive M-S, from the view shown in the VE photo, but apparently with no need for the belt. I like it. I heretofore thought that the DDX1000 and later the DQX1000 were the top of the line for M-S DDs. Moreover, your DDX1500 appears to have a coreless motor AND quartz referenced motor control. Very cool.
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You mean the self proclaimed expects who are more worried about null points than platter mass. Oh and don't forget that the arm can not have it own stand. The fun never stops.
Enjoy the ride
Tom |
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@chakster, the CU-500 is definitely on my radar, but unfortunately the asking price is usually off my radar :-(.
I certainly would like to use it on the RX-1500 and move my CU-180 over to the BL-91. I assume it's not allowed to negotiate on the forum, but is there a way to engage in private communication? Perhaps a (part) trade might also be possible?
@amg58, getting older too so I recognize this memory thing, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that one of the designers responsible for the last mega Micro tables (SX-5000 mk2 and SX-8000 mk2) is now responsible for the TechDas tables, which clearly build on the design principles of those big Micro's. Unfortunately I never heard either, so I have no idea how they compare and how much science has progressed. Or not. Basically this is the same as my original question, albeit on a much higher plane. Anyone made this comparison?
BTW, I just ran across this quote: "just buy a used Micro Seiki and don't worry about turntables anymore; built like a tank and sounds better than TTs costing over 30K USD", supposedly made by Mr. Ikeda himself. I can't verify the authenticity or the date of this quote, but it makes perfect sense to me. Mr. Ikeda designed tonearms and cartridges decades ago that still put many of the current high priced 'luxury trophies' to shame.
For some reason I value Mr. Ikeda's judgement higher than some of these self proclaimed experts on this forum.......
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I bought my BL-91L from a very knowledgeable and top nice guy in the States. I also bought the MA-505-LX arm matched to the table from him also. He had the MS gunmetal mat edge polished to a gleaming copper like colour. Cost about US$2,200. It was a weighty trans-shipment but well worth it. I love it. I have an Allaerts MC1 playing on it an it sounds great, despite the 12" arm. There currently is a thread discussing the cleaning/rejuvenating rubber belts. The belt does do some work in the first second or two to get the platter up to a steady accurate speed so deserves some TLC. @theophile I didn't know that for sure. I realise now had read it a while back but memory fades the older you get. @edgewear I have the heavy MS platter on the DDX-1500. Being DD, the TT comes up to accurate speed pretty quickly. For a TT that's not young it is pretty good. I also have a Nakamichi Dragon CT which is also "vintage" but performs beautifully (also bought from the US) We don't see many good vintage TT's on the market Down Under. When you do see one it's pretty well used and beaten. |
when you add a CU-180 copper mat, the ringing vanishes completely. I’m sure this will also be the case with the heavier plateau of the RX-5000, although you might need the heavier CU-500 mat for this. But Micro apparently knew very well what they were doing...... Micro Seiki gunmetal mats are amazing, not only for Micro turntables, but definitely for Technics direct drive turntables. My both Luxman PD-444 made by Micro Seiki too, but the CU-500 is too heavy for them, so i use CU-180 and even lighter Saec SS-300 which is also superb. Unfortunately i do not have appropriate turntable to use my mint- gunmetal CU-500 mat (sold my SP-10mkII to a firend). If anyone looking for Micro CU-500 in top condition - let me know. P.S. Also using Reed 3P "12 and Fidelity-Research FR-64fx tonearms. |
@rauliruegas, What's the point of your endorsement of a $40k turntable for people interested in a RX-5000 or one of its clones?
I'm sure it will be absolutely shocking news for some people to hear that in your opinion this NVS table is superior to modern BD tables costing over $200k. But what does this have to do with anything?
For what it's worth, I seriously question the validity of this numbers game and even doubt that performance is the main objective here. High end audio is all about 'luxury trophies for the rich' these days, just like designer bags for the girls and wrist watches for the boys. The more expensive, the better the trophy....
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@amg56, I use three different arms. At the back left position a Reed 3P 12" on an AX-6G armbase, at the back right position an Audiocraft AC-4000MC, also on AX-6G and front right a Fidelity Research FR-64FX on AX-8G armbase. The Reed has a Van den Hul Colibri XPW Blackwood as my ’reference’ (besides that it’s definitely not fun mounting or dismounting a Colibri). With both other arms I use a variety of MC cartridges in constant rotation. Most of these are of the ’vintage’ kind. Comparing them and making new discoveries has become one of the more enjoyable aspects of my ’audio life’.
On a side note: I also have a BL-91 and I’ve made comparisons with the RX-1500. They share the same bearing and by using the same gunmetal plateau (and both using the same arm/cart combo and both on the same wall mounted frame) you can easily hear the difference between the fairly light weight wooden plinth of the BL-91 and the ’heavy metal’ approach of the RX-1500 (and likewise the RX-5000).
Contrary to what others have said here, I definitely prefer the ’heavy metal’ approach of the RX-1500, which is why I have an interest in the even heavier RX-5000. And the matter of ringing of the gunmetal plateau: this is true in ’naked form’, but when you add a CU-180 copper mat, the ringing vanishes completely. I’m sure this will also be the case with the heavier plateau of the RX-5000, although you might need the heavier CU-500 mat for this. But Micro apparently knew very well what they were doing......
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There is a Simone Yorke turntable among the modern belt drives, has anyone tried it? I like the stands he made. Here is an interview with Simone Yorke |
