Sorry, I was being sloppy. The correct URL is www.Micro-Seiki.nl which shows the RX-5000 exact copy called ’The Tribute’. This can be joined by a German made motor drive by Dereneville ( www.AVdesignhaus.de). The table displayed by Acoustical Systems is indeed a modified version of a Chinese RX-5000 clone. I don’t suppose they would waste their time on polishing a turd (or a ’garbage copy’) now would they? The TW Acustic is called the Raven RS (not yet on their website) which incorporates a flywheel (another Micro first I think). Suggested retailprice is around $20k. The new Kuzma is called the Stabi R, which is already listed on their website for €9000. I have yet to figure out how to upload links to pictures and such, so sorry for not including these. My observation is simply that the Micro RX-5000 apparently has become an inspiration for various reputable brands. I think it would be interesting to compare these new designs with the original. So I would like to know if anyone already has something they wish to share about this. |
@amg56, I agree. The capitalist need for cheap labor ushered in globalism - as a slightly more civilised form of colonialist exploitation - and the communist regime in China opened their doors in a desperate attempt of revigorate their own declining pre-industrial economy. Necessity is the mother of invention and copying is simply a part of that process. And so they became the world's sweat shop.
Fast forward a few decades and they have evolved into innovators in several key sectors like energy, mobility and digitisation to power, move and manage their economic transition. The second industrial revolution made - uh - 'America great', but the third industrial revolution will happen in the East, as well as the power shift that goes with it.
Now they've learned all the tricks from the former Masters of the Universe like a real sorcerer's apprentice, we're now talking about moralism over here in the 'decadent West'? That would be the mother of all cynicisms. Or would that be Mr. Trump starting a trade war to 'bring back the jobs' and 'make America great again'?
I wonder what all this has to do with my initial observation that reputable Western brands are building turntables that look like the RX-5000? Does it show that the former copyists are now being copied by us? Perhaps a reverse trend as just another sign of our own decline?
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@amg56, don't worry, my last remarks were very much tongue in cheek. I sort of enjoy the way discussions on this forum tend to take unexpected turns. From RX-5000 clones to paradigm shifts in global economic power is just a small step in 'lateral thinking', so I feel right at home here...... ;-).
@lewm, you mention two 'weak links' in Micro turntables, the motor speed controller and the construction of the armboards. The first one contradicts my own experience. I've had several German made modern tables (from Clearaudio and TW Acustic) that exhibited problems in speed control. That was the main reason for going back to vintage Micro. Both my RX-1500G and BL-91 are flawless in that regard. The gunmetal AX type armboards are very heavy and solid, so I wouldn't know why they could be considered 'not the most stable'. Especially compared to the acrylic or aluminium ones used by these 'modern' German tables........
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@rauliruegas, What's the point of your endorsement of a $40k turntable for people interested in a RX-5000 or one of its clones?
I'm sure it will be absolutely shocking news for some people to hear that in your opinion this NVS table is superior to modern BD tables costing over $200k. But what does this have to do with anything?
For what it's worth, I seriously question the validity of this numbers game and even doubt that performance is the main objective here. High end audio is all about 'luxury trophies for the rich' these days, just like designer bags for the girls and wrist watches for the boys. The more expensive, the better the trophy....
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@amg56, I use three different arms. At the back left position a Reed 3P 12" on an AX-6G armbase, at the back right position an Audiocraft AC-4000MC, also on AX-6G and front right a Fidelity Research FR-64FX on AX-8G armbase. The Reed has a Van den Hul Colibri XPW Blackwood as my ’reference’ (besides that it’s definitely not fun mounting or dismounting a Colibri). With both other arms I use a variety of MC cartridges in constant rotation. Most of these are of the ’vintage’ kind. Comparing them and making new discoveries has become one of the more enjoyable aspects of my ’audio life’.
On a side note: I also have a BL-91 and I’ve made comparisons with the RX-1500. They share the same bearing and by using the same gunmetal plateau (and both using the same arm/cart combo and both on the same wall mounted frame) you can easily hear the difference between the fairly light weight wooden plinth of the BL-91 and the ’heavy metal’ approach of the RX-1500 (and likewise the RX-5000).
Contrary to what others have said here, I definitely prefer the ’heavy metal’ approach of the RX-1500, which is why I have an interest in the even heavier RX-5000. And the matter of ringing of the gunmetal plateau: this is true in ’naked form’, but when you add a CU-180 copper mat, the ringing vanishes completely. I’m sure this will also be the case with the heavier plateau of the RX-5000, although you might need the heavier CU-500 mat for this. But Micro apparently knew very well what they were doing......
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@chakster, the CU-500 is definitely on my radar, but unfortunately the asking price is usually off my radar :-(.
I certainly would like to use it on the RX-1500 and move my CU-180 over to the BL-91. I assume it's not allowed to negotiate on the forum, but is there a way to engage in private communication? Perhaps a (part) trade might also be possible?
@amg58, getting older too so I recognize this memory thing, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that one of the designers responsible for the last mega Micro tables (SX-5000 mk2 and SX-8000 mk2) is now responsible for the TechDas tables, which clearly build on the design principles of those big Micro's. Unfortunately I never heard either, so I have no idea how they compare and how much science has progressed. Or not. Basically this is the same as my original question, albeit on a much higher plane. Anyone made this comparison?
BTW, I just ran across this quote: "just buy a used Micro Seiki and don't worry about turntables anymore; built like a tank and sounds better than TTs costing over 30K USD", supposedly made by Mr. Ikeda himself. I can't verify the authenticity or the date of this quote, but it makes perfect sense to me. Mr. Ikeda designed tonearms and cartridges decades ago that still put many of the current high priced 'luxury trophies' to shame.
For some reason I value Mr. Ikeda's judgement higher than some of these self proclaimed experts on this forum.......
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Guys, sorry for perhaps stirring this pot (or should that be ’pod’?) unintentionally. I’ve learned over the years that just about everything in audio has an effect on sonic quality, especially in analog. Arm pods, turntable mass, null points, the list is endless.
Taking an agnostic position is probably wiser than a dogmatic one, in audio as much as life in general. Trial and error is what amateurs like myself have to go by. In that journey I’ve recently learned much from the members of this forum, which seem(ed) to include some real experts kind enough to share their knowledge.
However, some dogmatic characters on this forum have a real talent for being obnoxious, by accusing everyone with a different opinion of being ignorant (in capital letters just in case we miss the point). I suppose veteran members of this forum have learned to ignore these ’contributions’, which is probably what I should have done as well.....
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’I don’t know what I don’t know and think that I know what I know, but how do I know which is which?’
This pretty much sums up my agnostic position in life as much as in audio. Is this blissful ignorance or am I just kidding myself?
@amg56, the BL-91 is a very nice table, but are you using it with the original feet? I discovered that this table can be elevated to a different level by replacing them with something more substantial. I’m using four Finite Elemente Cerabase footers now. This may be stretching it, as these retail for almost as much as I paid for the table. But I had these lying about doing nothing, so it was an easy choice. I’m sure there are alternatives that are more cost effective and still give you the option of levelling the table and - here comes that dreaded word again - MASS loading the table.
Speaking of which, this might also be an interesting option for your DDX-1500. I believe it has the same spring loaded feet as the RX-1500. I replaced these with the R-15 stainless steel feet for - oh dear, here it comes again - MASS loading the table. That proved to be a nice improvement!
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My original point was that apparently some reputable brands have issued new models that could be regarded as an 'ode' to Micro. I thought it would be interesting to know how these would compare to the original, but apparently nobody has any information on this yet.
The ensuing thread went all over the map, sometimes informative and entertaining, sometimes less so. As you say, there's nothing wrong with that I suppose.
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@amg56, finding original Micro R-15 feet will be very difficult, but as an alternative I can recommend www.micro-Seiki.nl. They can supply exact stainless steel replicas for a reasonable price and they have even designed accompanying (non original) spiked dishes to go underneath. A great package that works very well. I should add that my RX-1500 is placed on a wall mounted support, so footfalls and other floorborn resonances cannot interfere with mass loading the table. My BL-91 still has the original aluminum plateau (although it does have a Puresound Tenuto gunmetal mat on top), but the source mentioned above can also supply exact replicas of the RT-2000 plateau in either brass or stainless steel (not yet gunmetal, as this apparently is not currently available in large enough chunks suitable for CNC machining). So that is an upgrade path I still aim to take. |
@amg58, I forgot that the BL-91L originally had different and more substantial feet to begin with. Perhaps these were the MSB-100, I’m not sure. But the standard feet on the BL-91 are really crappy in my opinion. From the description of your cherished 91L I’d say you made a great deal on it! Oh, and could you please tell me where you sourced those improved belts?
This conversation has been characterized as just an ’ode’ to Micro (subtext: an ode to ourselves for having such excellent tastes), while much of what has been exchanged is about making improvements. But the basic design and engineering principles were apparently ’sound’, especially considering their age. Some of us can appreciate this achievement. Maybe it’s just ’nostalgia for the old folks’, as we are becoming ’vintage’ ourselves. But - again - it might also be the reason why some modern brands are still taking ’inspirational cues’ from some of these designs.
@rauliruegas, I guess I’m taking the bait again, but your ’defense’ is weak. The dictionairy may be ’fact’ in your universe, but language is a living thing. In everyday speech used by us regular folks, being ’ignorant’ generally means the same as being ’stupid’. Are you trying to convince us that you don’t know this?
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@rauliruegas, thank you for the explanation. English is not my native tongue, so perhaps I was ignorant of the correct meaning. I stand corrected!
I’m not a member of the ’Congregation of MS Acolytes’ and their products are not at all sacrosanct to me. Even so, trial and error have convinced me that even the humble RX-1500 sounds better TO ME than the various modern turntable I’ve tried. These had cost me more, albeit nowhere near the $40k of the table you endorsed. For the people who are prepared to invest that kind of money in a turntable I should hope they get better sound than the RX-5000 or its derivates that cost less than $10k. But such a comparison doesn’t make any sense (I can think of 40.000 reasons why......).
About those Micro plateaus. When I first installed it I was horrified about the ringing. As expected, when used ’naked’ it really sounded terrible. Adding the standard issue DISK-SE rubber mat ’killed’ the ringing to some extend, but it effectively ’killed’ the music too. So at first I was very disappointed about the sound quality (and about the purchase I might add).
Then someone was kind enough to inform me that I really needed to add the CU-180 (or CU-500) copper mat. It took some effort finding it, but I’m glad that I did. Things immediately fell into place. The uncontrolled and restless sound of the ’naked’ plateau disappeared, while retaining the liveliness and dynamics that were killed with adding a rubber mat (or cork, or leather, I tried all usual suspects). The resulting sound of this gunmetal/copper ’sandwich’ (a kind of constrained layer damping avant la lettre?) must have been fully intentional.
Many manufacturers in the 80’s were using various materials to dampen their plateaus (e.g. my Pioneer PL-70L II has some bituminous material underneath it). We can safely assume that Micro was perfectly aware of this and apparently decided against it.
So my assumption is that they left their gunmetal (and stainless steel) plateaus undamped on purpose. My listening experience suggest as much, BUT I do think that these copper mats should have been an integral part of the package and should never have been sold separately as an ’add on’ accesory.
The unfortunate result of this faulty marketing strategy is that there are probably many Micro owners out there who do not hadve the copper mat and consequently have no idea what their table is supposed to sound like.
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@amg56, your analogy with old cars is sort of interesting. It seems to me that all the electronics and software in modern cars put up a barrier between the driver and the actual driving experience. Yes, everything is much more sophisticated, but is it also more real?
Might the same be happening in audio? While the limitations of early digital were painfully obvious, I was nonetheless able to enjoy the music. But the exponential increase of digital processing power hasn't improve my listening enjoyment and it seems that the higher the bit rates, the more manipulated it sounds. It is a barrier between the music and the listener. You hear every detail, but it's just a lot of information (a 'data dump'). The musical message seems to be 'lost in translation'.
With analog audio this should be different, as the source material is untouched by digital manipulation (unless of course you buy those vinyl reissues pressed from digitalized sources). But perhaps to some extend all these computer aided tools do more harm than good in designing turntables, tonearms and cartridges as well?
It touches on the many 'thorny' questions around digital technology. I'm not a Luddite, but I don't belong to the 'technology will make everything better' crowd either. I try to be mindfully optimistic, perhaps against my better judgement. If a singularity is inevitably and we get this intelligence explosion, what will it mean for the human listening experience?
For this analog forum it might all come down to this question: what will the first AI designed turntable sound like? Will we enjoy it as much as we will enjoy 'driving' autonomous vehicles?
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