Micro RX 5000 Renaissance?

Dear @ferrari275: """ famed RX 5000 belt drive remains relevant even today from both a playback perspective and engineering point of view.  
Solid design. Ultra high analog playback capability. """

IMHO no one of those characteristics in your statement are really true but the other way around.

The RX 5000 is way way different design to the SX models and there is no comparison in between on each one quality performance levels.

R.

Dear @opus111 :   """  Is this a joke? Having owned 1500, 5000, and 8000 I am a MS fan but the 237 and 282 arms are by far the most overrated tonearms of all time, and nowhere near the level of their better turntables. They sound thin, sterile, and downright unmusical....."""

That you owned all those MS TT models and that you think are really good only speaks that you are totally unaware of all its design faults and that you like all the distortions degradation the TTs makes to the cartridge signal.

In that statement you confirm what I'm saying on what you like it when you said that the MX MS tonearm models sound: thin, sterile and dowrigth unmusical ". Well, first than all a tonearm must has not sounds by it self, I owned too the MAX models and are very good tonearms and very well damped and maybe is because of this that you did not like it because you like higher distortion/coloration levels. .

Good for you are still a MS TT fan, this fact only says you are a fan of a wrong designed TT.

R.

Dear @cleeds : I take your point. Normally in my country is not an insult but could be an insult depending with whom we are speaking and if that the discussion is hot but already gone out of civilised maturity and out of " control ".

In the other side each single learning " audio lesson we have the opportunity to achieve will mades that we can grow up in our hobby, it's not an insult try to learn or tell some one that needs to learn because not only in audio subjects but in any life day by day subjects exist an specific learning ladder and each step we are going up we are growing up.

That's what my common sense dictates to me but each one has his own common sense and of course different country culture.

Btw, I want to let very clear that when I use the word ignorant my first and main meaning is that we only has to go deeper in the subject we are discussing to learn and be or not aware of what we are discussing.

I never use ignorant/ignorance words to insult any one everywhere in the audio forums.  

I think that for all of us always is good to have a open attitude willing to learn that permits two critical audio " things: grow up that means too that in that audio subject under discussion our ignorance level goes down and both achievements are true advantages for any one of us.

That's the way I think/common sense with no  culture  in between, we all are mature human beens .

So, even that some discussions can goes truly hot I NEVER try to insult any one.

R.

Dear @cleeds : Time to learning. Why incomplete? where is my ignorance of that word?  can you help about?

R.

Dear @amg56: No, you are not insult me even if you or any one else post that I’m stupid I don’t took it as an insult if that person tells me in the same post why I’m stupid.

I know for sure that I can be ignorant on some audio subjects and that’s why I always am willing to learn from everywhere.

For many years now my day by day attitude is always this: make in deep tests on every single post I read all over the internet audio forums, it does not matters that those posts came from an audio rookie. Of course that I make the tests on what I can test or that my room/audio system permit it.

I almost never post anything where I did not have first hand experiences and not only that but almost always challenge other audiophiles to try it before they give me " negative " answers or that posts only theories with out trying their self what are posting.

You can be sure that what I post exist a good reason to do it and that normally the audiophile expression: " that’s the way I like it " never is the foundation of my posts. I have to stay perfectly sure of what I’m posting even if is contrary of what you or other gentlemans are accustom to.

My best self question ( every day. ) is: what if I wrong?, this challenge question permit me to test different alternatives in an audio subject till I can prove that I’m wrong or confirm I’m in the rigth road. I always are unbiased with any audio subject, no matter what.

I never gave / give any single advise where I never tested or satisfied with. You can be sure about.

Problem in internet audio forums is that almost no one wants to make tests on something they are not accustom to: against his believes. This is the real problem: stays sticky on several wrong believes that just stop each one growing up and music true enjoyment.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @edgewear: You really have a misunderstood on those words: stupid and ignorance, because both are way different and the meaning is totally different.

Ignorance level on any life subject means only to be unaware of that subjects or its ignorance level is higher in that subject that other person but ignorance just DOES NOT MEANS that person is stupid. No way, stupid word is used on very different sentences by any of us.  You can read here about:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/stupid

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/stupid


I own many vintage audio items that I bougth not because I'm stupid but because I was totally ignorant of the facts that many of those vintage were behind in its true quality level performance and was years before that I learned about an puts some on sale and been sold.
But I have to learn and took me several years to do it and in the mean time I was not only hap´py with but exited to own it.

What happened when I learned ( step by step/tests. ) about?: simple that my ignorance levels on those different subjects improved and lowering that ignorance level.

After learned with the MS TT you can be sure that today I don't receive it not even as a gift no matter what ( only to put on sale and make money with. ). 

You said:

"  I’m sure this will also be the case with the heavier plateau of the RX-5000, although you might need the heavier CU-500 mat for this. But Micro apparently knew very well what they were doing......"""

that statement speaks that you think tha " MS knew very well what they are doing.."".  Certainly MS did not know what they were doing because if they knew  what they were doing never been designed that terrible ringing platter, the design is FAULTY just from the begining.
They were ignorant about, had not  awareness on the subject but were not stupid.

Btw,  NO ONE is stupid only because is ignorance level is high against other person that's lower and of course that exist persons that are unaware/ignorant of something and at the same time stupid. Stupid is a person not able to learn for whatever reasons.

So, ignorance is not synonimous of stupid.

R.

 

Dear @amg56:  """  I would not use the term or call people "ignorant" or call them out over their "ignorance". It is a demeaning term which will raise the heckles of anyone.  """

Why is that?. If I or you don't know the chinese language then you and me are ignorant of that language because we just don't know about/we do not learned that language. So we are ignorant on chinese language.
If we speak a little of that language then we are ignorant but with a lower level thatn the ones that can't speak or understand not a single word.

What's wrong with those? it's an insult?  why people come " angry " when when read the word ignorance/ignorant. Please tell me if I'm wrong and why I'm wrong.

here it's the definition of that word:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ignorance


Attitudes like yours or edgewear  against that word for me is a real ignorance of the definition of the word in a dictionary, I'm not trying to diminish any one. 
I posted that I'm ignorant in spme/several audio susbjects and that edgewear could be less ignorant than me in some audio subjects.

Where is that " big deal " ?

I think that if something is black color you can't name it blue or white but black because this is the color !!

Don't you think?

We are here and elsewhere to learn day by day , this is whatm  permit me to grow-up and to tame my ignorance levels and this is the main, important and critical subject for any true audiophile and not to stay for ever sticky on our each one believes because the world and audio world is no exception is in constant movement and changing and we need to addapt to the true " news " subjects.

That's the way I'm. Bpolleti, yes are facts that you are not yet aware of it.


R.

Dear @edgewear: IGNORANCE is part of each one of us audiophiles, no one is totally free of some levels of ignorance in audio subjects. That way I’m ignorant in several audio subjects where perhaps your ignorance level is lower and mine is higher. Always is that way with any one in audio and that includes reviewers, manufacturers and retailers/distributors.

Btw, I’m not dogmatic, things are that in some subjects your ignorance levels are higher than mines and you think ( there ) you are rigth when en reality are wrong. Sometimes that happens with me too ( the other way around ) depending on what subject we are talking about.

How can we lower our ignorance levels in some audio subjects? plain and simple: learning about but for this we have to have a positive and open attitude and not that kind of negativity you showed here about and I have to tell you that I understand your attitude because you think you are rigth even if not and this is the problem: your problem that impedes to learn.

"""
you can easily hear the difference between the fairly light weight wooden plinth of the BL-91 and the ’heavy metal’ approach of the RX-1500 (and likewise the RX-5000).

Contrary to what others have said here, I definitely prefer the ’heavy metal’ approach of the RX-1500, which is why I have an interest in the even heavier RX-5000. """

well you prefer the heavy weigth approach because you don’t understand yet the terrible disadvantages in a non damped all metal heavy weigth approach and this has a name: ignorance, that’s all and your statements about are wrong.

Everything the same the main quality level performance differences in TTs is how well is damped the TTs: chasis, foots, platter, arm boards and the like and re member that it does not matters how much heavy be a metal TT platter during play motion it generates vibrations it self that your ears can’t detect but the LOMC cartridges can and shows it.

Your example of the BL-91 against your 1500 is way fulty s comparison nd is not good foundtion for your sttement. Think about and ask your self why is faulty.

The best of MS TTs are its looking but not its overall quality performance. In the other side the MAX 237/282 tonearms are really a reference product an a true challenge to any today tonearm designs.



" What’s the point of your endorsement of a $40k turntable for people interested in a RX-5000 or one of its clones? """


Well the main point is that the original 5000 is ( by origen. ) a faulty design as the 1500 for all what I pointed out and that exist clones of it is not a good news for any audiophile but only to those that are ignorant of those facts.

"""
High end audio is all about ’luxury trophies for the rich’ these days, just like designer bags for the girls and wrist watches for the boys. The more expensive, the better the trophy. """

maybe for some whealthy gentlemans but for whealthy true audiophiles not because their audio ignorance levels is way lower and they know what and why to buy audio items, they don’t buy because is expensive but because true quality level performance. You can be sure that this kind of whealthy true audiophiles never spend a dime for a massive heavy weigth all metal TTs no matters if the price is 100k or 300K. They have very good knowledge levels.




""" but when you add a CU-180 copper mat ..... """,

do you really think that adding mass/weigth trhough that mat problem is solved, no only that the rpoblem suffer some changes and increment in other ways what the cartridge can " hear "/pick-up.


""" Mr. Ikeda designed tonearms and cartridges decades ago that still put many of the current high priced ’luxury trophies’ to shame. """

maybe with his cartridge designs but ceratinly not with his undamped tonearms designs.
Think for a moment: if TT damping characteristic is so critical an important for a tonearm is way more critical/important due that the cartridge is atached to it.

@edgewear, look that I’m not talking of what we like it or not but only simple facts why somethings are wrong.
What you or me like it has no importance in what I’m talking/sharing here.


Ignore what our ignorance levels says only makes us more ignorants and with no hope of learning to grow up.


As @lewm posted:

""" Part of the fun of this hobby is making these sorts of choices for onesself. """

he, me or Halcro learned through of that.

@tomwh , how did you learn all audio subjects?, by osmosis?.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @lewm : Yes. you are rigth about those 40k NVS price but I'm not refering to those MS but to the today ones BD that sells for over 200K !

R.

Dear @edgewear / friends: The " notice/news " in your thread is not really a good notice because the RX-5000 is not the " touted " TT as we could think. I’m an owner and know it very well.

The MS RX seies followed the TT trend in Japan in those old years: massive metal heavy weigth BD units as if metal heavy weigth TT characteristic was the rigth solution for a TT targets when in reality it’s not and does more harm than true help to the cartridge signal.

MS motors came from Technics/Panasonic and that heavy TT platter in reality damps nothing at all and rings as a bell. The 5000 has not a well damped structure/foots anywhere in the design because they thougth that heavy means " damping " and try to " disappear " problems mainly through " high weigth ".

Its arm boards are really easy to use, solid an tonearms friendly to set up but they choosed the worst position for the arms board: exactly vinculated to each TT foot with out no damping, everything pass through those foots and arm boards and when I said everything I mean vibrations, resonances and the like and those " everything " degraded the cartridge signal. Terrible as a TT.

The " incredible " notice is that now other manufacturers are taking the MS as a guide to build/design its TTs, ! !

But not only the ones you name it but several other manufacturers that are just followers of that totally wrong vintage japanese trend: massive metal heavy weigth designs that they used thinking that a heavy weigth platter high rotational intertia permit better speed stability but it’s not so simple as that and in the other side any rotational/movement heavy weigth platter can’t damp its own internal resonances generated for its heavy weigth in movement.

Asian people in those times likes it that metal heavy weigth shiny look that for them was a sinonimous of high quality performance when it’s not but the other way around.

The " stupid " thing about is that today we have that same trend, I can say : an up-dated trend and not because are better thatn the vintage TTs but because are/comes even with more mass and way higher metal weigth. It’s clear that the vintage audiophiles in that TT chareacteristic regards just do not changes and follow buying those trash of metal heavy weigth BD TTs. ! ! !

As always IGNORANCE is the culprit here and ignorance from the manufacturers that shares with the " audiophiles " that just can’t think a little on what they are paying for: they are buying kilos of metal at a price that’s higher than real gold ! ! and are all happy with ! !

The @jtinn Wave Kinetics NVS TT outperforms easily any of those heavy weigth massive BD TTs and for a lot lees money ! ! !

About who is copy whom is more a " joke " because a TT or tonearm or whatever audio item you can think is not rocket science, it’s really easy to build a TT like the MS or a tube ( perhaps SS units and allitle on speakers not so easy. ) item and we don’t have to be engineers to do it almost any one can do it.



Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.