Micro RX 5000 Renaissance?

Tech Das is Micro Seiki. Micro Seiki is Tech Das.

www.hifiplus.com/articles/meet-your-maker-hideaki-niskikawa-of-techdas/?page=2

The DDX (which is direct-drive) is a totally different animal from the massive M-S belt-drive turntables, one of which carries the "1500" numeric designation (RX1500, or some other alphabetical prefix depending upon price point).  In fact, isn't the M-S DD turntable called "DDX1000", not DDX1500?  Also, the later quartz referenced version was called DDQ or DQX, IIRC.  Anyway, if there really is a DDX1500, I'd like to see a photo.  Thanks.

@edgewear What arms have you got in place on your 1500G and in what positions? My 1500 is the DDX version and it has no issues with speed control, despite its age. It is damn hefty being built of gunmetal, even the outboards. Absolutely no chance of movement there.

Dear @lewm : Yes. you are rigth about those 40k NVS price but I'm not refering to those MS but to the today ones BD that sells for over 200K !

R.

Raul, without commenting on most of what you wrote, I would only say that I think you’re wrong about the price of the NVS turn table. I think most of these micro seiki  copies are less expensive than the NVS, which I think is about $40,000. Of course, correct me if I am wrong. Good point about the mounting of the tonearm in direct connection to the foot of the turntable which is certainly not the best idea.

Dear @edgewear / friends: The " notice/news " in your thread is not really a good notice because the RX-5000 is not the " touted " TT as we could think. I’m an owner and know it very well.

The MS RX seies followed the TT trend in Japan in those old years: massive metal heavy weigth BD units as if metal heavy weigth TT characteristic was the rigth solution for a TT targets when in reality it’s not and does more harm than true help to the cartridge signal.

MS motors came from Technics/Panasonic and that heavy TT platter in reality damps nothing at all and rings as a bell. The 5000 has not a well damped structure/foots anywhere in the design because they thougth that heavy means " damping " and try to " disappear " problems mainly through " high weigth ".

Its arm boards are really easy to use, solid an tonearms friendly to set up but they choosed the worst position for the arms board: exactly vinculated to each TT foot with out no damping, everything pass through those foots and arm boards and when I said everything I mean vibrations, resonances and the like and those " everything " degraded the cartridge signal. Terrible as a TT.

The " incredible " notice is that now other manufacturers are taking the MS as a guide to build/design its TTs, ! !

But not only the ones you name it but several other manufacturers that are just followers of that totally wrong vintage japanese trend: massive metal heavy weigth designs that they used thinking that a heavy weigth platter high rotational intertia permit better speed stability but it’s not so simple as that and in the other side any rotational/movement heavy weigth platter can’t damp its own internal resonances generated for its heavy weigth in movement.

Asian people in those times likes it that metal heavy weigth shiny look that for them was a sinonimous of high quality performance when it’s not but the other way around.

The " stupid " thing about is that today we have that same trend, I can say : an up-dated trend and not because are better thatn the vintage TTs but because are/comes even with more mass and way higher metal weigth. It’s clear that the vintage audiophiles in that TT chareacteristic regards just do not changes and follow buying those trash of metal heavy weigth BD TTs. ! ! !

As always IGNORANCE is the culprit here and ignorance from the manufacturers that shares with the " audiophiles " that just can’t think a little on what they are paying for: they are buying kilos of metal at a price that’s higher than real gold ! ! and are all happy with ! !

The @jtinn Wave Kinetics NVS TT outperforms easily any of those heavy weigth massive BD TTs and for a lot lees money ! ! !

About who is copy whom is more a " joke " because a TT or tonearm or whatever audio item you can think is not rocket science, it’s really easy to build a TT like the MS or a tube ( perhaps SS units and allitle on speakers not so easy. ) item and we don’t have to be engineers to do it almost any one can do it.



Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I wanted to ask a question related to the better MS tables, but I see @invictus005 has already infected this thread.  

@amg56, don't worry, my last remarks were very much tongue in cheek. I sort of enjoy the way discussions on this forum tend to take unexpected turns. From RX-5000 clones to paradigm shifts in global economic power is just a small step in 'lateral thinking', so I feel right at home here...... ;-). 
 
@lewm, you mention two 'weak links' in Micro turntables, the motor speed controller and the construction of the armboards. The first one contradicts my own experience. I've had several German made modern tables (from Clearaudio and TW Acustic) that exhibited problems in speed control. That was the main reason for going back to vintage Micro. Both my RX-1500G and BL-91 are flawless in that regard. The gunmetal AX type armboards are very heavy and solid, so I wouldn't know why they could be considered 'not the most stable'. Especially compared to the acrylic or aluminium ones used by these 'modern' German tables........

@amg56, I agree. The capitalist need for cheap labor ushered in globalism - as a slightly more civilised form of colonialist exploitation - and the communist regime in China opened their doors in a desperate attempt of revigorate their own declining pre-industrial economy. Necessity is the mother of invention and copying is simply a part of that process. And so they became the world's sweat shop.

Fast forward a few decades and they have evolved into innovators in several key sectors like energy, mobility and digitisation to power, move and manage their economic transition. The second industrial revolution made - uh - 'America great', but the third industrial revolution will happen in the East, as well as the power shift that goes with it.

Now they've learned all the tricks from the former Masters of the Universe like a real sorcerer's apprentice, we're now talking about moralism over here in the 'decadent West'? That would be the mother of all cynicisms. Or would that be Mr. Trump starting a trade war to 'bring back the jobs' and 'make America great again'?

I wonder what all this has to do with my initial observation that reputable Western brands are building turntables that look like the RX-5000? Does it show that the former copyists are now being copied by us? Perhaps a reverse trend as just another sign of our own decline?

@invictus005

"Every single clone or fake part should be banned, confiscated, and destroyed by customs. I don’t care how old the original is."

So true. So true. So I take it you are all for paying China royalties for all foreign produced tea and alcoholic beverages, all products using gunpowder, paper and all printing......

And best not mention how the Poms stole tea plants from China to start tea growing in India.

"They have no moral compass and even clone $0.03 transistors."

And good to see you condemn the whole nation for the transgressions of some. So tell me what you think of the moral compass of the whole of the US given the agonizing deaths as a rsult of this one business profits decision?
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/22/business/2-paths-of-bayer-drug-in-80-s-riskier-one-steered-overse...

Tariffs are not good enough. Every single clone or fake part should be banned, confiscated, and destroyed by customs. I don’t care how old the original is. I already have enough problems in dealing with these idiots and fake semiconductors, which have trickled into stockpiles of even reputable U.S. distributors. They have no moral compass and even clone $0.03 transistors.

If anyone wants an RX 5000, just go on eBay and buy the RX 5000.

I'm a little confused by the fuss over the Chinese business practices, since the M-S copies seem to come from Germany or Austria.  Anyway, the new copy of the RX5000 seems to retain one feature of the original that has been criticized: apparently the tonearm has to be mounted on a platform that attaches to the main plinth via one of those nubbins at the corners.  Some say this is not the most stable way to mount the tonearm.

Errr...  Are the "Chinese" the only ethnic group that ever made a copy of anything?   Sixty years or more ago, the Japanese were derided for doing the same.  Since then, we've come to appreciate their homegrown skills and the quality of their products. I think it's fair to criticize those who outright steal intellectual property for their own profit, and in some areas of technology, the Chinese are guilty of this, particularly with respect to foreign businesses that choose to operate or sell in China.  That's a risk they take.  But, come now, M-S turntables have been out of production for decades.  Copying something that long gone is hardly similar to stealing brand new ideas that have just come to market.  By the same token, maybe we should get mad at all the US companies that make reproduction AC Cobras, as well.  Not.  Anyway, with the new tariffs, these M-S copies might be priced out of the US market.  I suppose you'll like that. 

invictus005 sure Chinese intellectual theft is an issue. There are however polite and respectful ways to say that, that don't demean or belittle all Chinese people.

Chinese only please broke greedy people who want nice thing but don’t have the money or are unwilling to pay a fair price for them.

One of the more profoundly asinine generalizations I’ve read on A’gon.

Mirko Djordjevic of Huntington Beach, CA builds a very high quality replica of RX-5000 for substantially less $$$

Sorry, I was being sloppy. The correct URL is www.Micro-Seiki.nl which shows the RX-5000 exact copy called ’The Tribute’. This can be joined by a German made motor drive by Dereneville (www.AVdesignhaus.de).
The table displayed by Acoustical Systems is indeed a modified version of a Chinese RX-5000 clone. I don’t suppose they would waste their time on polishing a turd (or a ’garbage copy’) now would they?
The TW Acustic is called the Raven RS (not yet on their website) which incorporates a flywheel (another Micro first I think). Suggested retailprice is around $20k.
The new Kuzma is called the Stabi R, which is already listed on their website for €9000. I have yet to figure out how to upload links to pictures and such, so sorry for not including these.

My observation is simply that the Micro RX-5000 apparently has become an inspiration for various reputable brands. I think it would be interesting to compare these new designs with the original. So I would like to know if anyone already has something they wish to share about this.

What Chinese do BEST is to build what they want to whatever they standard they please to include World Class .

What is your criteria for an "inspired" Rx 500 table.  Any table with a heavy platter and an outboard motor? 

The one URL you did provide takes me to a site written in a Germanic language, and none of those URLs go anywhere interesting.  Can you provide reference to actual photos of the turntables to which you refer?The "technology" of a belt drive is quite simple.  One would imagine that modern motor speed controllers might be superior to the original M-S parts.  My second hand knowledge of M-S always suggested that their speed controller and maybe their motors were a weak link that is often upgraded. So, any of these new products might outperform a stock M-S RX5000, for that reason alone. You probably know more about that than I.