"
@mijostyn, A D'Appoltio Array uses a 3rd order cross-over not a 6dB 1st order cross-over.
" I happen to have discussed this subject with Dr. d'Appolito. I was considering building a set of DIY speakers based on a Dynaudio design for DIY,. the Myrage. The system used first order crossovers. I called up Dr. d'Appolito at his home and asked him about 6db crossovers for his array. He told me that a d'Appolito array functioned as designed with any odd order roll off slopes, but that he was personally partial to 18dB slopes.
Rockport makes some heroic cabinets and other high end brands competing for the same dollar are making inert cabinets. I had a pair of usher be20 dmd’s 285 lbs each that The previous owner replaced the spikes with flat plastic tiles to ease sliding around. I peeled the tiles off and installed the spikes and the bass quality went from a 3 to a 7 in regards to speed and detail. Same cabinet. If aluminum is your thing, cool, but there’s other designs equally capable, just check magico’s website
Is a big potential disadvantage of metal speakers like magico q7 or yg sonja that if there is any loose bolt, nut or screw it could rattle in the cabinet ?
9”w x 15”h x 12”d with one internal brace. I taper mine from the 9” from to a 6” back. There is virtually no waste but this is a pretty typical cabinet size with an internal volume of ~.45 cu ft. Though it varies slightly depending on the size of the port needed.
Given that I compete with Magico and offer a $7000 pair of carbon fiber stand-mount speakers, I have minimal interest in defending them but will say that there is a big difference between a 1/16" press forged cabinet vs one made from 3/8" extruded aluminum. You also have to consider fixed tool and die costs in both cases compared to any wood material be it MDF, Baltic Birch or African Rosewood.
I would love to say Magico is overpriced but other than retail margin, I can't see an issue with their pricing and they don't build in the monstrous margins that some other companies do. I looked a producing a speaker like the A1 and I can't do it at a lower price unless I want to produce them and import them by the container from the far east and I have to outlay a lot of cash up front for tooling.
Regarding my costs on Baltic Birch, you can get panels a little cheaper than what you see at retail from people who are buying at wholesale in large quantities. And for the size speaker I am talking about, you can get 2 speakers (one pair) out of a 2' x 8' sheet. That is where the $40 came from.
kalali Magico is priced to attract audiophiles who equate cost as much as any other performance aspect they are well made well-designed loudspeakers for sure but overpriced like most all high-end today. And maybe you missed this part of my post above { More to the design of a loudspeaker than cabinet materials I think focusing on such while overlooking the whole is self-defeating}
Meridian uses\aluminum sandwiched in plywood and some inner coating with 6 lacquer layers and when JA measured the 8000's he found no measurable resonances!
The cost of the (aluminum) cabinet is only part of the story. Take a look at the cross section of a Magico speaker and when you see all the bracing that is required, then you’ll see why they weigh as much as they do., and maybe why they cost as much as they do.
Baltics far more costly than $40 a cab to build a speaker a 2x8 sheets $70 much more if furniture grade or veneered Aluminum is cheap to use once you set up to use it. Aluminum is about $1900 a ton birch ply more costly plus waist from ply is not able to be resold, unlike aluminum. It is far cheaper to paint then veneer ply, aluminum is light so you save on shipping costs. Why you see many home theater in a box and computer speaker systems using it. More to the design of a loudspeaker than cabinet materials I think focusing on such while overlooking the whole is self-defeating.
Celestion SL600 and SL700 that have been mentioned are great speakers. I have heard both and use the SL700 myself. The 700 outperforms the 600 in almost every way.
The speakers have an efficiency of 82db for 1w and the impedance dives to below 4ohm below 100 hz iirc. They need an amplifier that can drive them with a lot of current but once you find the right match these speakers are magical (like with the Primare a30.2). I still have an old pair of sl6si (the cheaper mdf brother of the 700) that I connected about a month ago again to compare to the 700. Compared to the 700, the soundstage was blurry, vocals sounded coloured and the imaging was a bit all over the place, even though they're very nice speakers too. The aerolam cabinets are so quiet the image is just painted around the cabinet and very nicely holographic. I will cherish them for long I think.
Just to be a completist, several makers of tiny speakers in the 70s and 80s used metal cabinets on at least some of their models, including ADS, Boston Acoustics, and, of course, Radio Shack’s Minimus 7 line (except the wood-cabinet 7W).
Geoffkait, when was Klipsch founded. I do not know the History of Audio Machina as to when they first released their product but unless they come up with some low end products that regular folks will like they will be history just like Nearfield Acoustics. If I suggest a linear array speaker I will go with ESLs or ribbons. Maggie 20.1s out performed the Pipe Dreams in every way except volume and the same is true with these Audio Machina things. The Maggie ribbon tweeter is the best tweeter made even better than ESLs due to its wonderful dispersion characteristics. If you look at the physics stacking dynamic drivers is a silly endeavor. There is no driver narrow enough to work. A dome works fine as a point source. Maggie's ribbon tweeter is 1/4" wide and radiates over 100% of its surface area. It is also long enough to function as a linear array over its entire frequency range. Perfect. The only sad part is the woofer is not...long enough. Because the speaker is a bit over 6 feet tall it functions as a line source down to somewhere between 150 and 200 Hz. The best way to deal with this is to make the speaker 7'10" tall so that it abuts an 8 foot ceiling. Then it will be a line source down to 1 Hz. Magnepan thought about doing this but they thought it would decrease their Market I guess because it would make the speaker more expensive. Good magnets are not cheap. Pity. Subwoofer systems just do not function well up at 200 Hz. So, when I set up Maggies I keep the subs point source and jamb them into the corners. I cross at 100 Hz. I guess I am rambling.
TAG McLaren Calliopes are made of aluminum alloy and they pre-dated Krells’ LAT Series by several years. I think they were really onto something but it was all for naught. I have a pair of Calliopes and I feel fortunate to own them; probably one of several dozen pairs that were sold in North America before TAG went belly-up. They don’t do deep bass but they are superb in every other aspect.
Can I sell you a CD Re-animator? Or maybe some Dark Matter Optical Treatment. I thought you had something to do with AudioMachina. I had never heard of them. So, now I won't offend anyone??? Running a 3 inch driver full range is almost the silliest thing I have ever seen even if they are forming a line array. This is Pipe Dreams meets Bose. Sort of like crossing a rhino with a giraffe. Their horizontal dispersion above 8 kHz will be offal (intentional))) and everything will be Doppler distorted from the bass. Even if you crossed to subs the high frequency dispersion will be so bad that the listening position will be limited to exactly the spot where the beams cross. Judging by the lengths they went to to make this speaker it must cost a fortune. Either a SoundLabs or Magnepan 20 or 30 series speaker is going to out perform these things for probably much less money. I don't want to jinx anyone but I doubt these guys will be around long.
geoffkait, notice the two "f"s. Just went to the Audiomachina web site. Interesting design. I like that it is a line source and I like that it goes into corners although that will cause issues with some rooms. Question, what are the 1/2 inch diameter black bumps on either side of the drivers? Are the three or so inch drivers run full range and if so I assume the amplifiers are equalized to some degree?
I heard a floor-standing set of metal cabinet [aluminum, I believe] speakers at the home of Dan D'Agostino [founder of Krell] a dozen years ago, demonstrated by the man himself. They sounded fine ! Whether they were prototypes or not, I don't know, but they were designed to be Krell loudspeakers.
I own vintage speakers, mainly JBL products (monitors); In addition to MBL and Duntech. I heard some YG Sonjas a few weeks ago and was impressed with the quality (natural) sound they delivered. So much so, I contemplated selling some gear and upgrading to the YG.
Much of what has been discussed so far in this thread can also be found in a similar related thread on Audiogon started back on 5/25/18 by Vinny55: “Which material sounds better for speakers construction? Wood, Ply or MDF?”
i noted in more specific detail on that thread, more than I am here, about how and why Paradigm’s Persona Speakers use 7 Layers of High Density Fiberboard (HDF) with internal cross-sectioning of Marine Fiberboard. I suggest referring to that thread for many similar points made about cabinet construction in this thread as many things will get restated here that you can find there.
@smodtactical I have not heard the Magico M2 but have hear lower end products in Magico's line. I have supreme confidence that it is spectacular.
I saw that SEAS is offering Graphene coatings on their drivers. I will make a point to listen to them at Capital Audiofest.
My design is pretty good and for stand-mounts I am confident I can go toe-to-toe with anyone. It will be interesting to see how my designs stack up against the S1 MK2 and the Sabrina when I introduce them.
Speaking of concrete speakers, there was a company in Sweden named "RAUNA" that made such a thing! I heard a pair in the early eighties here in Las Vegas at a used stereo store.
Through NEWAS, an audio club now gone I had the opportunity to hear the Sason Ltd. Granite speakers that Ridge Street Audio brought up
with his Poemi
cables for a meeting we had. The Positive Feedback article was written by the host of the meeting. Affectionately called Roozer.
It was truly a unique experience especially since the speakers were set up in a 2 story great room with balcony and about 45' x 28' in floor space. It filled the room. On talking with Robert and
Steve
on
the research and work to
get the granite, internal wiring and speaker terminals (no binding post) right was eye opening. I wish I had the money to buy them back then, although I still love my Soliloquy 6.3's.
It is amazing what you can use for speaker cabinets if you are willing to try.
The entire box doesn't need to be made out of concrete. You could make the baffle from aluminum or some other material that is practical. My point is that making the entire box of a ludicrously expensive speaker out of a single material is ridiculous. Making it in a factory and shipping it somewhere is ridiculous. It doesn't translate if the point is to get the best performance for your $685k. What is going on here is that the guys who make the decisions for these companies have been around enough rich people to know just how vulnerable their vanity makes them.
Concrete is interesting but you need to create a mold for a hollow concrete box where you are going to have metal lathe running through it. Concrete won't hold together without it.
Not to mention that mounting hardware would be difficult. I doubt that a hammer drill will work near the edges of a round hole like that without fracturing off. Maybe it would. I am not sure.
This seems like it would be harder than you would think. That being said, a company did launch a speaker that has a stone cabinet and evidently it sounds great. Acora Acoustics makes their's out of black granite.
They are about midway down this article. You can see mine a bit further down under Verdant Audio.
How about concrete? You can get the stuff they make concrete countertops out of at a store near me for around $15/bag. Past a point it seems it would make more sense to have portable forms and pour the box onsite. Or have the box made out of interlocking vertical layers that stacked on top of one another. How inert and resonance free would a box be if it were brick and you just had a brick layer lay it in your listening room? It wouldn't cost much. Maybe have a light box and cover it in a thick layer of concrete. If performance were really the point of these ridiculous boxes there are bound to be a lot of better ways to going about building an inert box than spending 120 hours machining aluminum.
The thing is, past a point it can't possibly make sense to have the entire speaker delivered to a house. You can do a lot of things for 100k, let alone 500k, that you can't for 10k. It's a very different situation and calls for a different approach. Or it would, if performance were the primary consideration.
@Kenjit...I promise you the differences are not subtle.
One other note. What will be completely game changing is when graphene comes available as a skin. Stronger than Carbon Fiber, graphene layers over a nomex or aluminum honeycomb will be at a completely different level.
Graphene could be the holy grail for cabinet materials.
When you do this, you will find that when you use stiffer materials like Carbon Fiber or even fiberglass stiffened by resin, the sound coming from the speaker will be more natural and fine detail is clear. When the cabinets are less rigid, but still resonate at a high frequency separation of detail will still be good but sound will be damped and dark. The solution is to alter the crossover and make the tweeter slightly more forward.
The alternative explanation of course is that there are no differences and its all imaginary
I have been on the fence about posting on this. These things get nasty at times and I lack the energy to argue with folks.
I have done extensive testing on cabinet materials in the startup of my company. One straightforward approach was too build the same cabinet out of multiple materials. You would be shocked at how much energy goes back into a cabinet and how much strength is really required to damp it.
The frequency with which the cabinet resonates is also extremely important. The lower the frequency, the greater the vibrations that are created and the more it impacts the ability for sound to travel forward from the cabinet and secondarily, the amount of distortion that muddies the sound coming from the drivers.
I used the same drivers, crossover and stuffing in cabinets that were identical other than the material and fine exterior measurements to variances in thickness of the materials.
When you do this, you will find that when you use stiffer materials like Carbon Fiber or even fiberglass stiffened by resin, the sound coming from the speaker will be more natural and fine detail is clear. When the cabinets are less rigid, but still resonate at a high frequency separation of detail will still be good but sound will be damped and dark. The solution is to alter the crossover and make the tweeter slightly more forward.
When the cabinet materials are less stiff and resonate at a lower frequency, the sound will be both dark and muddy. No matter how stiff the drivers are, there is nothing that a manufacturer can do to stop this.
Wood, no matter how heavy, stiff and dense, can’t match it. Some perform better than others, no question. But manufacturers are cost conscious and want to keep prices down. Take a stand mount speaker that is 8"w x 15"h x 10"d. Normal size. The cost of the MDF in that pair of speakers is about $7.50. Baltic Birch plywood will be about $40 and a hardwood would be $100-$400 depending on exactly how rare or exotic it is.
Composites will start above that plus the cost of a mold and much more expensive machining. Same for metal.
There is a reason why Magico’s, Wilson’s, Marten, Vivid, Wilson Benesch, etc... sound so good. The materials they use, whether composite or metal, resonate less and/or do it at a much higher frequency.
Given all that, what material do you think a manufacturer is going to pick when making a cabinet? Especially when everyone is using MDF and it is the industry standard. Unless you are going for high performance, even stepping up to Baltic Birch will add about $100 to your retail price and in hyper competitive markets where there are 80 speakers to choose from, every nickle counts.
MDF is used because it is cheap. And layered MDF does not significantly outperform solid MDF. It bends easier which is why it is used. Strength comes from layers with oriented strands of grain being laid down in opposite directions. OSB or standard plywood are examples of this. By it’s vary nature, MDF does not have oriented strands. It is stronger than particle board but well short of plywood. Having 7 or 9 layers of thin MDF glued together only makes sense when bending
I have Genelec in aluminium cabinets and they are surprisingly inert - you tap them and you get much less noise than a mdf cabinet. The shape and thickness may play a roll - Genelec’s aren’t square and everything is smooth and rounded. Certainly the aluminium thin heat sink grills on my amp ring when touched.
Speaker features: "1.The D'Appolito alignment is optimally applied to midrange/woofer drivers no larger than 5.25" in diameter. Any larger mitigates against the optimum spacing between the midrange/woofers and the tweeter, (as measured from the driver centers). 2.First order crossovers are essential to maintain perfect phase relationships and time constants."
Unsound, I am only referring to the positioning of the drivers. Done this way the drivers are acting acoustically as one driver through the entire pass band, an almost perfect point source. Whether or not you use a 1st, 2nd or 3rd order cross and where you put it depends on the physical size of the tweeter as you want to keep the mid/woofers as close together as possible, the upper frequency limit of the mid/woofers and the lower frequency limit and power handling of the tweeter. If you choose the right drivers you can get away with a 1st order cross and still maintain the point source characteristics of the array. It does limit your choice of drivers generally to more expensive ones but it makes life much easier and guarantees a phase coherent speaker. The dipole plate design eliminates enclosure resonance and improves integration with the room acoustically. Placed at shoulder level these little speakers sound really big. With your eyes closed you would swear you were listening to big floor standers. If you have access to a CNC mill you could even make the plate out of aluminum.
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