Next, the subs. I disagree, heartily here, that ported subs are lesser than sealed. Like everything else, the deeper you go, the harder a speaker is to integrate. If we’ve done all our work correctly, sealed the mains, integrated well, a ported sub may be great. Most of the issues raised here are bogey men I added a third sub to my system two weeks ago. The first two subs are sealed the new one has a passive radiator which is worse than a ported sub. The issue that I started to notice because of the passive radiator was that the kick drum beats were lasting too long. At first it was kind of cool to hear those big fat beats but it didn't take too long to figure out that they shouldn't be like that. The effect on the bass instruments is a little more subtle since they naturally have longer sustain before they start to decay. I think this is what the JL Audio author was talking about when he was saying that a ported sub did not work well in a two channel music system. I ended up placing a pillow under the passive radiator (down firing) and that helped immensely. The kick drum still had a big rich tone but a much more natural (a bad word since most kick drums are modified to limit sustain) duration. Big impact, rapid decay, while the other bass instruments became a little more detailed |
@spinaker01
There's perhaps 1~2% of 'what there is to know about me'.
Google might fill in another percent or 3.
The rest involves Time, and certain amount of patience...
Cut me some 'slack'....and you'll get 50% more from me.
My 'standard issue' for 'places like This'. ;) |
Erik, I suspect that you & I aren't on 'opposite sides of the country' as much as one may assume...;)
As for the 'start point'...one begins with The 1st Assumption. Set up, check, run the experiment... ("Well, that sounds like...*expletive*" *sigh*)
This goes on until one arrives @ The 'Best' Compromise. What one has within what space it's in.....sounding less like *expletive*, more like "I can live with This....for Now."
Room modes....*L* One can run about with calibrated mikes until a spectator thinks you're into an insane calisthenic routine. All the while, attempting to discern IF this will make or break what you're trying to accomplish....
...and this with 'white' and/or 'pink'. Play 3 different genres of music...
If one is lucky, One will sound 'acceptable'....the others, *Ehh*
Notice I've not addressed 'nuance'....nor 'detail, timbre, 'port *whoosh*', or any of the other bugs that bugger the other mortals that inhabit AG.
Crossover type/slope/points? Start with 'spec', consider what's being crossed why/how/where..."Assumption 47B", if you will. *L*
Now...consider that I'm a fan of dipoles...and omnis.
In a concrete and steel space that would likely have most packing things up and listening to a 'boom box' when not having a pair of ear plugs with the BT'd player keeping their relative sanity intact.
And this given space is Temporary. It's gone on longer that I would like, but building up our business has kinda taken precedence over any other concerns.... One has to pay the bills, and theoretically 'grow' same.
That's finally paying off; enough that I can spend a certain amount of time attempting to explain myself...where/what/how in This Regard, audio and the pursuit of....
Anyway...*kicks soapbox aside"...Merry Xmas, huh? *G* And Happy Pre-New Year to you and your family.
Fair warning, tho'....'20 is going to be an extremely busy year for yours truly. I shan't be able to enjoy your company or that of others here...or much of any other forums I've tried to haunt.
Consider it a blessing, I suppose...*shrug*G*
Regards, J |
I actually agree that room correction, measurements can only take you so far.... but man, if you don't get that starting point right, you haven't even gotten to the right country.
Getting the crossover/phase matching right is super hard to do by ear.
Figuring out the room modes that need to be quashed is also super hard. That's what the tools do really well.
That basic starting point is super difficult to do and get right.
Once you have that, sure, tilt the bass response, and adjust the level to please yourself.
And, expensive as they are, the tilt and level setting in addition to the subwoofer integration is something the JL Audio room correction gets very very right.
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...and you've stumbled into the 'alternate definition' of 'assume'....
Simplistic; try again. |
asvjerry. No, I’m pretty sure you’ve just told us everything there is to know about you...
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Room correction will only take you so far...(MHO...)
Ears and 'taste' (levels, xover, all that...) is the final %.
Having to 'make do' with 'non-pedigree' equipment for decades....but applying what now amounts to decades of 'tuning for the room' with a variety of 'things' to integrate such...
...I'm still slightly stunned and vaguely amazed that y'all 'don't get it'.
'Perfection', outside of a 'live' performance or sitting at the mix panel, is something you're simply trying to duplicate to the 'sonic image' you have in your head; and Really...nowhere else.
You can spend XK$ in this pursuit....and still 'fall short'....IYHO.
And...you're welcome to it.
(I've been really tempted to show up at AXPONA '20...Just Because. ;) You'll recognise me...the one with the ear muffs on...
Why? Because it's tiring to listen to 'all that', constantly. And, listening to Anything in a hotel room isn't where I'd ultimately have 'it'...)
Yes, you are certainly welcome to regard me as an 'unwashed, no-nothing, uneducated' troll. I'm good with that. It also 'shows to go ya' you have absolutely no knowledge about me.
...and I'm absolutely Fine with That. *G* ;) |
You mean, like Beethoven? The famously deaf composer? No. Composers that write music for unamplified instruments. Then hear it played in concert or a large recording studio. Only a small portion of Beethoven's output occurred after he was deaf. |
As an owner of three JL Audio subs (all requiring repair at one time or another (due to the well known cheap-a-- Chinese capacitors in their amps) I must say that they do sound great. if I was starting again though, I’d probably opt for the SVS sealed subs SB16s. The JL stuff is just too overpriced in a competitive market.
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I was first gonna slam and then epically eviscerate ieales (with one hand tied behind my back) for that first one. But then came this: As a composer friend once opined after hearing my system and enquiring "Those little speakers aren’t putting out all that gorgeous bass?!?!?!?" … "Every other subwoofer I’ve ever heard just boomed!!" His great appeal to authority is a composer. Hey ieales! You mean, like Beethoven? The famously deaf composer? I have indeed met my match. IMNSHO, of course. |
It all depends on integration. I’ve heard fine JL Audio subs in systems where I couldn’t leave the room fast enough.
IMNSHO, the sub character must mate well with the mains. As a composer friend once opined after hearing my system and enquiring "Those little speakers aren’t putting out all that gorgeous bass?!?!?!?" … "Every other subwoofer I’ve ever heard just boomed!!"
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I have owned different subs including a recent JL Audio D-Series and have heard their E and Fathom series as well as many other brands.
Curiously the JLs do really well in the one area you almost never read about in subwoofer reviews- they sound really nice.
Think about it- we read about quickness, about slam, room filling pressure, room integration, etc. but have you ever read impressions on how a subwoofer actually sounds?
The JLs sound sweet. They have a rich timbre that makes any system sound better, richer, more "high end". I love the "sound" of their subs. They do impact, slam and integration well but for me the sound quality is why I really like them. They stand apart in this area IMHO. |
...a mix of four or five different subs randomly positioned around the room would surely be the worst possible bass. Thank-you for confirming. One may like it, but it is definitely not correct. |
I tried to read the JL article. Really, I tried. But I have this problem. Always been a problem, but seems to be getting much worse as I get older. The problem is first of all, I’m really good at spotting crap. And second of all, and this is the part that gets worse, the growing lack of patience dealing with nonsense, especially from people and sources who should know better. This JL Audio piece with all its bold statements and bold fonts highlighting the BS has my meter pegged. So instead of commenting on all the crap and word salad nonsense, which would take like forever, here’s the one tiny little bit they did get right: The only correct way to add a subwoofer to system is to define everything above the subwoofers range as an entity;... and then ... the subwoofer is one way and everything above it is the ‘other’ way. Notice the ellipsis (...)? That’s because even around this one little bit they did get right is a bunch of stuff they got wrong. The part they screwed up is cut out. Thus .... That’s it. The one thing they got right: low bass is one thing, midbass on up in frequency is another. Of course they can’t say "thing" they say "entity" which is just bad writing. People with little to say and even worse understanding always think big words will make up for their lack of content. As. If. The truth is everything above the sub really is a whole different thing from everything below. If all their timing technobabble was even halfway true then a mix of four or five different subs randomly positioned around the room would surely be the worst possible bass. Instead of the best. So there you go. |
The article has a good deal of useful information. I considered JL Audio, but thought the value proposition a tad lacking. Ports are something to enjoy after dinner. IMO, ports create more problems than they solve. One might find some useful information on integrating subs here http://ielogical.com/Audio/SubTerrBlues.php |
Use DSP to create your crossovers, then global EQ to bang the living heck out of the results. UGH. I see this not just with subs but with multi-way DIY systems. Don't do that. why |
The CR-1 is also a noteworthy device that can help you achieve a near perfect balance between your subs and speakers.
I won't buy JL subs ever again though. For the price they charge, you should have a much longer lasting product. I too have had both amps fail on a pair of E110's, and have had major headaches because if it. For your money, you can get a more durable and equally sounding sub. I miss the looks of my E110's (they are indeed a sexy device), but not the migraines induced from dealing with them failing. |
erik_squires, Agreed off the chart expensive! I'm more of a Rythmik, SVS guy.
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I've never owned JL Audio subs. I like their performance and the measurements I've seen of their room tuning quite a bit.
However, wow. Super expensive.
Hard to believe the average audiophile can't get a lot more value using a Hsu or SVS sub with appropriate room correction.
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@dweller
I have a pair of E110’s and I think they sound great. Both have failed at different times and were sent back to JL to be repaired. They still sound great but a bit of a hassle.
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There is actually an even worse way to do this:
Use DSP to create your crossovers, then global EQ to bang the living heck out of the results. UGH. I see this not just with subs but with multi-way DIY systems. Don't do that.
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I should also state that my process is pretty complicated. :)
I bet there are Room EQ Wizard forums that make this whole thing a lot simpler. I haven't investigated because I like being in the weeds, but you absolutely should, come back and tell us what wonderful things you've found.
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Adding A Subwoofer. This is just too long. It’s as if the author is trying to impress us, and impress upon us that we cannot do this. Well, we can. It’s just a giant pain in the ass. :) There are six paragraphs which are unnecessarily complex, but they boil down to the seventh: So the overall view of adding a subwoofer is this: In essence you are designing and assembling a new speaker system which is effectively a two-way system; the subwoofer is one way and everything else above it in frequency is the second way. Let me simplify this even further to restate points A’goners may have read from me before: - I integrate my subwoofer to the existing speakers by treating it exactly like adding a new driver to an existing speaker.
- Crossover design and alignment is difficult work.
And in this sense, I agree with the article. Too many audiophiles think that a crossover is a frequency and a slope. Regardless of whether you are using an active or passive design, this is a terrible way to integrate a speaker. You have to take on all of the challenges (except driver impedance) when you design an active crossover as you would in a passive. EQ, phase matching and frequency summing all have to be stitched together at the same time, or you’ll end up with a frankenspeaker. And in this sense I want to clarify something: To integrate a speaker well you have to know how to build a multi-way speaker crossover from scratch. The nuance I want to introduce here is that it’s hard, but not rocket science. It is expensive, but not astronomical. Certainly the tools are much much cheaper than a JL Audio subwoofer, but if you haven’t done this before, DIYing it is going to have to be a real act of love to make it worthwhile. The article makes a big deal of expensive test equipment and impulse response, blah blah blah, but honestly the tools are much more accessible and affordable. I use XSim ( from Bill Waslo, also author of OmniMic ) and OmniMic, and in a sense I do exactly what the article describes. I analyze my satellites as if they were one driver, and the sub another. I then connect miniDSP to the sub and use interferometry to estimate the actual delay between the sub and main speakers INCLUDING the delay introduced by the DSP (which some mistakenly skip). I use XSim to estimate the delays, and ideal crossover slope, and export this back to OmniMic. Then I use OmniMic to create the necessary FIIR filters for miniDSP to give me the desired slope. Upload these to miniDSP, and use OmniMic again to set the overall level. Impulse Response Um, blah blah blah blah blah ..... Basically this is already addressed above. If you have correctly analyzed the sub and satellites, you will naturally have a phase correct impulse response. If this is not clear, look at this image from Stereophile’s review of the Monitor Audio Silver 300 speaker:https://www.stereophile.com/images/318MS300fig7.jpgThe point the JL Audio author tries to make is that adding a driver (the subwoofer) should blend seamlessly into this picture. I 100% agree. Ported Subs .... Man, again, a lot of words. Lets talk about the satellites first. It is super convenient to use sealed satellites. Even if they are normally ported, sealing them with a rag will increase the dynamic range, and limit excursion. The slope will be more gentle and easier to match to, and most times you don’t even need a high pass filter. That means no messing with the signal from your analog rig to them. Next, the subs. I disagree, heartily here, that ported subs are lesser than sealed. Like everything else, the deeper you go, the harder a speaker is to integrate. If we’ve done all our work correctly, sealed the mains, integrated well, a ported sub may be great. Most of the issues raised here are bogey men. |
Having never used (or heard) a JL subwoofer, based on reviews, I held them in high regard. That is, until someone (on this site) claimed they used some cheap part internally that had a high failure rate and required shipping back to the factory for repair.
I don't know if this is true. If so, I hope they have made changes.
JL appears to be a quality product. |
