Ah...*S* Thank you both for that. I'd been the GIKA site, but didn't notice the 'art' details....My Bad on that overlook....;)
I've known from 'my previous life/employment' that if it's 300 dpi minimum and in .eps format it can be printed. The printers' run algorithms that 'fill in the blanks' on enlargements, but obviously the higher the dpi the sharper the final image will be. That, and a better file format....
Their 'stock shots' are usually pro hi-rez stuff but tend to be as generic as a Hallmark card. I've some imagery I've wanted to print large-scale that would 'personalize' the panel prints.*S*
Still might be a tough sale to the spouse, but having 'our' art vs. 'theirs' might make the sale a little easier.... ;)
Thanks again for filling in my blanks...
J
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asvjerry... Has anyone seen or known of 'free-standing' panels? Ones that could be analogous to a 'room divider'? It's called a "gobo."
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* GIK Acoustics ART panels.
My bad
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In the above vein....
Has anyone seen or known of 'free-standing' panels? Ones that could be analogous to a 'room divider'?
Height/width as desired; fixed or mobile?
The latter could have appeal for the larger space...out of the way for daily life, but easy to move into place for the 'Serious Listening Hour' (...or 2, 3, 4....etc.)....
Just thinking outside the box.....*S* |
I have to say though, the GIK Acoustics are panels are effective, pretty and high value. :)
And yes, room acoustics is something I have always been sensitive to. Not just for music. Spending a long time in an office with live sheet rock is exhausting.
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Backing up to the discussion of room acoustics, and the control of....
One does have the option of custom DTG on fabric faced panels. *S*
DTG (Direct print To Garments) is a spin-off from the graphics trade which I was involved with previously. Initially, ’dye-sub’ shirts were the first items that were marketed. Since. it’s exploded into ’T-shirts on demand’, large-scale textiles, and nearly everything in between.
For an example:
- You can purchase ’blank’ acoustic foam panels; sized as desired.
- Have a suitable fabric printed with whatever suits ones’ taste; images, colors, patterns.... If it can be imaged digitally, it’s generally ’printable’.
- Apply foam to a substrate; plywood is typical, but the panel should be able to resist ’curling’ due to the ’shrink/swell’ tendencies of materials (What goes down ’flat’ @ 65 F. may ’curl’ @ 75 F.; sunlight through a window can ruin ones’ day...).
- Apply fabric to the ’face’; use of the correct adhesives to do so isn’t ’rocket science’, but does need to be paid attention to....
- Hang it all....*G*
One could make those corner bass traps ’blend’ into the corners, printed to match the wall paint....or not...
The wall panels could be a landscape....or a print of the dog, (grand)kids, cars, your home planet, a babys’ arm holding an apple....Whatever....
If I opt for ’acoustic conditioning’, the above is where I’m going. The general appearance of panel treatments in a ’common space’ (a living room, den, or ’what-have-you’) tends to have a limited appeal in the SAF category....
...even with mine, who has an appreciation of the "..why one would have the living room appear to be a recording studio?!"
It clashes with the drapes, sofa, the painting we paid X$ for, my eyes, Your eyes, the floor....
You Know the drill....;)
There’s Interior Design....and Inferior Desecration.
(Lava lamps are a subject of discussion...but I’ll back away from that...)
Back to topic. *S*
(Hi, Eric! ;)....)
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You are 100% correct. I am an amateur recording technician and when our large choir and symphony perform in auditoriums (Gindi, VBS) and stages (Ford Theater) requiring amplification, the sound is less than it should be. When we perform at Disney Hall or other non-amplified venues, the sound is captivating and the recordings are nearly audiophile (I only use two mics). Since I am not in charge of the amplification/can't touch union work, the sound will never improve. |
Great topic, one that I have inquired about and explored.
About 15 years ago I did a demo with a well known band in the Tampa Bay area at a night club. As an experiment, at the half time break, I replaced all the power chords and cables with audiophile grade chords and cables. In addition, I put sand filled bases under the mike stands. The band members were skeptical and the audience was not informed of the changes being made. The objective was to see if the improvements made a difference in the performance and the reception by the audience.
Prior to the break, the audience was not paying attention. They weren’t engaged. and were more interested in their table side conversations. After the break with the changes in place, there was a dramatic difference. One lady in the audience, who saw me on the stage, asked me what I had done. I asked her what she noticed. Clarity, was her response. Upon further inquiry, she was a piano teacher and had a trained ear. To her, there was a dramatic difference in sound quality.
It didn’t take long for the audience to become fully engaged with the band. In addition, the band members fed off the energy of the audience. With this knowledge, I became an audio advisor for a major cultural center in the Tampa Bay area and improved upon their audio situation.
Here is what I learned:
-The quality of the music and the quality of sound presentation both have emotional connections.
-Listening fatigue can occur when there is imbalance within the presentation of sound, as in a muddled bass juxtaposed to a clear horn section. It creates strain in the same way as a clear eye and a blurred eye will create strain. This is true of soundstage as well.
-The audience may not know what the changes are from, but they can feel it.
-Audiophiles are more sensitive and more aware of the improvements to sound presentation and therefore willing to spend more. -However, we all have potentials to addiction. and the addictive potential to the emotional connection of music and sound presentation is relatively high. -Music performers can benefit from the experience of audiophiles. |
@cd318...*S* Well put....Life, and the pursuits within and without, tend to align ones’ priorities.....and music can still or engage ones’ emotions about it all....
We, as a couple, don’t always enjoy the same music....which is Fine. *S*
She knows, however, what ’good reproduction’ of it IS. Her 1st husband of a very long time ago was a late-night engineer of a NYC jazz radio station. She came into my life with LPs’ and cassettes...;)
’ Hypercausis’ isn’t remotely an issue; she Knows what she likes, and how she prefers it to sound. Fortunately, there’s a lot of common ground in that we share.....*S*
I prefer a somewhat ’brighter’ HF, but given my age and the environments I’ve been exposed to in life....that’s not a big surprise...
I knew a woman whose ears were so sensitive that creasing a fresh piece of ordinary paper (such as used in your ’puter printer) with thumb and forefinger evoked a response similar to nails on a chalkboard.
Something I couldn’t hear some 40 years ago gave her the ’chills’ and an immediate "STOP THAT!"
Thus, I became quite aware that women can be very sensitive to HF sound....;) And despite that we were lifelong friends....*S* And one to my spouse as well....
So....given the above...’parameters’....I will find a means of making us both happy.
Because we both love it....and deserve it.
Y’all do the same. ;)
Back to U,
J
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I choose the rabbit holes that maximize the pleasure of my listening experience given a reasonable return of investment. I choose as starting points the #1 weakness in my system taking into consideration the limitations of my listening area. YMMV |
The built in activated carbon room walls (16" thick) eliminated any bass problem and I hear my Focus speakers only 3 db down at 25 Hz (it's half the size of my former music room so was limited to 25 Hz). Plus the room is no longer an issue. My audio system now sounds high end without costing as much (only the DAC, cabling and tweaks are new, the rest of the equipment is from 1989 to 2006). |
FTR: You don't have to spend a lot of money to have good room acoustics, but it doesn't hurt. :)
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Until I moved into my new home with its high end custom listening room, my wife would not listen to flutes, piccolos, vibraphones or other high pitched sharp transient music. It hurt her hearing these. Now, with an extended and controlled frequency sound, she is not adverse to listening for extended periods to any type of music and sound. Yes, it's a high end system in an even higher end room. It supports the point that women are more sensitive to high frequencies, especially if there is a brightness to them (dozens of my male friends never had a problem in the old room).
It's peculiar that playing 78 rpm records translate in a room filling, full sound, as if there are no wall boundaries. Too often CD transfers have the sound compressed in the middle between the speakers and stacked rather than spread out. I also dislike early stereo recordings with hard left-right imaging, sometimes with a soloist in the middle. Despite my great affection for Contemporary jazz recordinsgs, this is the only aspect that I dislike about them. Many modern recordings, especially classical have the opposite problem of too deep a soundfield with mics set back in an auditorium or chamber music recorded in too large a hall. |
Detecting absolute phase (polarity) depends on how accurate your speakers are. If you have crossovers placing the different drivers out of phase with one another, the speaker is not phase coherent. Polarity detection requires a phase coherent speaker to hear the benefits best. Crossovers can often times be wired out of phase between tweeters and the other driver.
Its why I always look for a first order crossover if the speakers are to have one. My current speakers are crossover-less and full range.. I hear a difference when switching polarity with either speaker type. One noticeable area is how the bass impacts the sound. When a bass note should be pushing towards you, reverse polarity will have the speaker pulling instead.
When in correct polarity = extrovert.
When in reverse polarity = withdrawn.
When not a phase coherent speaker? Schizoid effect when reversing polarity. What's heard can not be about realism, but rather about taste for whichever effect one prefers. May get masked depending on how crossover is effecting drivers. Bass might be better in one setting, but high and mids withdrawn a bit.
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Can someone explain and provide when they experienced a "gentle suckout at 9khz"?
Thx .. |
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Maybe she suffers from Hypercausis. |
I think it’s far too easy to be too discerning, even the mere fact of being an audiophile hints at that.
Ultimately it is a question of priorities, if not now, it definitely will be one day.
What matters to you most?
Relationships, children, personal health, financial security, psychological well-being /sense of ease regarding your present or near future, or the fact your system might have a gentle suckout at at 9kHz?
Life has a funny way of continuously reaaringing these priorities. And for some of us it’s damned difficult to stay ahead of its curve.
But then we don’t really have any other choice, do we?
Right now for me music is a still a great way to give my mind some rest and stimulus at the same time.
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@cd318....*L* I'll tell her about your compliment. Whether or not she'd comply with your request.....*shrug*G* Don't hold your breath....;)
If she's of a mind to do so....Don't ask her to sing.....('slide guitar style vocals, with a tendency to 'flat'....).....
*S* My dear spouse has lived with various 'n sundry systems over our years. A few have been regarded as the 'third member' of our homes with regards to their....'presence'. ;) She's always enjoyed what 'they' could 'do' with the music we've enjoyed together or individually.
Her biggest request is to have a 'default function' in any and all.
A means of 'lighting IT up' and being able to listen to whatever she'd like to hear at the time. The current 'main system' is complex, geared towards my 'odd Walsh endeavor'. The others are her 'puter in her office, streaming Spotify or streamcasters. The 'home system' at this point is broadcast (mostly NPR) FM, and the SatTV or CD/DVD. No tapes or LPs' however....
This will change in the near future, with a new home. :)) We're both looking forward to it.
The living area will have the Maggies' she likes and an improved version of my 'mutants'....and be able to play tape and LP easily.
Most of my 'toys' will be relegated to a separate room, which I ought to be able to condition and entertain my interests....*G*
Of course, there'll be a link betwixt the two....and both with the 'enhancements' we've both learned to appreciate and enjoy.*S*
Active EQ, subs, 'versatility'...
."....that audio stuff. If it sounds good, and I can enjoy it without having an instruction manual to Turn It On, I'm good with it!" (direct quote, BTW...). My Evelyn, 'closet audiophile'....*LOL* She'll either like it, or think you've listening to things too loudly... ;)
Regards,
J |
larry5729 ...
I spent 40 years in the residential real estate business. As a result, I have been inside thousands and thousands of homes. It always amazed me how many homes contained no music and no books. Big-screen TVs? Yes. Video games? Yes. But no music and no books. In that entire 40 years, I only saw two high-end systems. One contained a pair of Maggies, and a Linn turntable with a Koetsu Rosewood cartridge. The other one had a pair of the big Apogees with all-digital, no vinyl. Go figure Frank |
I suggest you give candling your ears a shot. 🕯
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Larry,it is all a matter of priorities.
Geoffkait, look in the mirror:)
Absolute polarity does not matter much. I can change it at will by remote control and as hard as I try I can not hear the difference. But, delay a subwoofer 0.3 ms (about 3 feet) and yikes! Changing the absolute polarity of the subwoofers vs the satellites is an interesting subject. Some people prefer it this way but I think that is because their subwoofers are not phase and time correct with the satellites. With corrected subs same absolute phase as the satellites is always better and I'm pretty sure if everyone here could here it they would agree. |
larry5729,
When you read some of the extravagant claims made regarding the audio of some of the latest high-end LED and OLED screens you can't really blame the owners for not realising that these plug and play products may not be the last word in sonics.
Whether we can blame the ultra conservative audio industry is another matter. For sure there are some awful sounding TVs out there.
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I have a realtor who has sent me hundreds of listings of homes sold in my area and I am totally amazed I have yet to see one home with pictures showing two speakers standing in one room of their house. I have also seen only a few where they have a built in surround system when watching TV and movies. How can people purchase a $5,000 entertainment center and listen to the TV speakers. Why don't they realize 80% of the the experience watching movies is sound? A good example of this is the new movie, Ford Vs Ferrari. What is the audio industry doing to make people aware of a good sound system as a new platform for entertainment? Why aren't they running TV commercials to promote their gear and to promote sound? No wonder this industry is in trouble. It is their fault and they should not complain about how bad business is. |
asvjerry,
"She may not be able to describe Exactly and 'properly' What she's noticing, but is a good 'canary in our coal mine'....;)"
Don't take this the wrong way (is there even a right way?), but those can only be the words of a true audiophile.
I think it might be a great read (not to say also brave on your part) if you could somehow persuade her to post her experiences here as a follow up.
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Re 'women's hearing sensitivities' and an 'in house' note...
Spouse enjoys loud music, but could only enjoy it for a limited time...
"Too shrill, it's fine for awhile but annoying after awhile...." in a time of cones 'n domes in our audio diet. When I first owned AMT drivers, her listening levels and 'length of' improved. *G*
Since we've both grown older, her HF 'apprehension' has deteriorated as true for most of us. Levels? Still likes to crank the knob UP....*L* ;)
Her 'fave' of late is the SMGa Maggies' that are now part of the herd here.
She enjoys their 'detail'. which reminds her of the AMTs'....
Me? I'm just happy she likes some of the 'toys'....it's not required that she has the same tastes as me. *G* We all have our preferences...;)
As for 'phase'. she notices it....
"Why does the stereo sound like sh*t?" ( I'm doing some re-wiring to check into a detail.....)
" Well, put back whatever you did....it didn't improve what it sounded like before. It was better the way it was..."
*G* I'll keep her. She's been around my gear for 40+ years now.
She may not be able to describe Exactly and 'properly' What she's noticing, but is a good 'canary in our coal mine'....;) |
erik_squires OPHook up one speaker out of phase and listen to what happens. There is a misunderstanding. I am more sensitive to speakers being wired out of phase to each other than a lot of other people. What I am not sensitive to is the phase of the recording, or as some call it, absolute phase. >>>>>Where is the Polarity Pundit when you need him? |
Certain folks smell, taste differently
It's true, I dislike the taste of vegetarians personally. I can't get past the sense of eating fat Brussels sprouts. |
Hook up one speaker out of phase and listen to what happens.
There is a misunderstanding. I am more sensitive to speakers being wired out of phase to each other than a lot of other people. What I am not sensitive to is the phase of the recording, or as some call it, absolute phase. |
"Certain folks smell, taste differently." Vegetarians would never know...
I guess you are not a vegetarian. |
"Smaller ear canals would also explain why the sound travels faster in women’s ears. Thank you Mr. Bernoulli!" It would also explain why those ear canals close more readily, preventing sound from going through. |
Certain folks smell, taste differently.
Heck certain people train themselves to taste olive oil, wine, etc.
So why not hearing?
Another factor in a Universe of factors. |
I knew women were more sensitive to high frequencies, never thought about why. Very good supposition I think. I definitely use a lower max vol when listening with Donna than myself or male friends.
You would love our friend Fran, every time we had our annual big picnic (business and friends), she would position herself right in front of one of my big speakers and any time I passed into that room, she would ask me to turn it down. MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE FRAN. She stayed right there. |
That would certainly explain why women can hear subtle changes to the system or controversial tweaks all the way from the kitchen whereas men have to resort to controlled double blind tests.
Smaller ear canals would also explain why the sound travels faster in women’s ears. Thank you Mr. Bernoulli! 😬 |
Women have smaller ear canals than we do. They are more sensitive to frequencies above 3000 Hz. They are also more sensitive to what they hear. At night the tiniest of noises will wake a woman up while we continue to snore on. I think in nature this has to do with their child protection instinct, their early warning system. This is also why they like being up higher (SUVs) They are uncomfortable with loud music because it defeats their early warning system.
As for the DACs your example is anecdotal. In and of itself it does not mean much. Certainly, DACs have improved. The early CD players were annoying.
As for phase you have to know what to listen for. It has to do with imaging and dynamics not sound quality(like brightness or bass heavy etc) Hook up one speaker out of phase and listen to what happens. Have somebody behind a speaker hold the leads in place and switch polarity immediately on your demand so you can quickly A+B. The punch disappears and the image collapses. All this can happen to varying degrees at certain frequencies. I think you have to have lived with a system that is phase correct for a while to know when something is off. My speakers are one way ESLs and the subwoofers are corrected in phase and time to match the ESLs (actually it is the ESLs that are delayed) You always tend to compare other system to your own. A big system is going to sound more extraordinary to a person with a small system than a person who already has a big system. If you do not have a system that is phase and time correct it will be hard to notice when other systems are phase and time correct. All of us learn over time how to listen as we gain experience. |
Hi @erik_squires On the other hand, I am completely insensitive to absolute phase issues which some claim to be.
It's possible you do perceive them—you just don't bother about them...The soundstage seems scattered left & right & some things sound as if they're back to front. As to the lady's point on contemporary DACs: couldn't agree more! |
Interesting thread for sure and as someone new to the forum world but a long time listener, I've never "thought about" absolute phase. My first blush is that it's not possible to hear but well, apparently it is (to some). As others have noted, perhaps if one heard a demo of it, then they just might hear it. There's probably much out there on the topic but to prevent me from reading the chaff, maybe someone could recommend some legit articles on the matter. Maybe they will help me do a demonstration or test.
Or maybe I dont want to know if it's possible for me to hear the difference.
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@mapman , I'll back you up on your comments overall, But therein lies the rub....sometimes the wrong way....*G*
As the Walsh nut case I am....yes, they do present a fantastic level of imaging in an effortless fashion....sometimes to the determent of the recordings. Some have the mark of an engineer that knew what to do and how.....the lead There, the drum kit over to the right and back, the vocalist just left of center.....
Then there's the recordings that are as flat as a pancake; everything in the middle, with only minor attempts at 'spread'. True, typical for older stuff, but even on remasters there's only so much digital magic can render....
As for phase, the way in which I've constructed my 'mutants' (or, as one person noted, my 'steampunk speakers')....(a comment that I actually like, btw...), physical acoustic phase is a piece of cake.
The 'driving' phase, positive vs. negative and the reverse of same can extract or diminish 'details' that I've noted between the mid-woofer and the tweeter, I can only relate this to the physical difference in their size at this time...
And the subwoofer which deals with the lower frequencies can reverse it's phase with the flip of a switch, so it adds to the fun....*L*
When I'm in a situation where I can get set up in a more 'normal' space I hope to quantify what I can only notice at this point....
Future fun.....part of the delights of this pursuit...*G*
I come from a 'relatively normal' family, where I felt secure and loved. Not that I didn't induce stress due to my own attitudes and idiocy, but we all grow up in varied ways....;)
Room treatment? DAC will have to do for now....
One could say I'm going through a phase....*L*
Enjoy yours,
J |
It is irritating sometimes.There's a few albums where sometimes the instrument playing on the right side is suddenly switched over to the left in mid song for no reason.Just when you can picture where each musician is standing it's like he/she popped over to the other side of the stage.I don't (usually) mind so much if a recording is sub par.It's almost like hearing the band or artist in an acoustically bad venue.It's still enjoyable.If I had a crappy system that made everything sound like that I would definitely have a headache.
I had an old car in which one of the speakers would cut out from time to time.Those old Beatles songs were interesting to hear just the vocals or just the instruments.The guitars were playing simple country style rhythms. |
Early stereo recordings did all sorts of crazy things with panning. Some of it had to do with the analog medium itself, tracking etc. Some of it had to do with simply the recordings themselves, as often they were live, all in the same room. In those early days room isolation didn’t exist, so in order to have music not be a complete mess, they would pan relative to position and mic bleed. Often they would put the dry vocal track panned full to one side and the effects panned full to the other, Zepp and the Beatles did this often.
And I would agree, most of us take this whole thing way to seriously. I think to some degree, the sheer amount of $$$ spent in this hobby forces a need to be overly discerning to justify the out lay. It’s very easy to get too wrapped up in all the crap and not just simply enjoy the music for what it is, how ever it was meant to be heard. The other thing I think we get WAY to wrapped up in, is trying to make recorded music sound “live”. That’s just a pipe dream, unfortunately. Systems can sound absolutely fantastic, but they are ALWAYS at the mercy of how the music was recorded, and how it was manipulated. So yeah, we get way to hung up on all this stuff... but really, isn’t that true for anything we are passionate about? |
Beatles and others in early stereo had vocals and instruments divided. I pushed the mono button on the preamp. Way better. |
It's okay to be totally crazed over stuff. Ya just have to know when to lighten up,
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@cd318
Yes, that was part of my education - - to learn that my finely tuned ear and reactions were over-active and miscalibrated for the normal people in my life. They worked great in the special circumstances of a profoundly screwed up household, but don't translate so well elsewhere.
I also get that this hobby being mostly an encouragement to solitary experience fits in, too. Yet my most favorite listening sessions are when another music head wants to immerse together for a multi-hour exploration. Can't do that often enough! |
@erik_squires I really love this question.
I suppose I'd just wonder about how you deal with other situations where you are able to shift your perceptual acuity into high or low resolution.
For example, when I go out for what a friend of mine calls "good-bad Chinese food," we know that we're going there to enjoy some grub, get filled up, have a good time. The food has to be decent but I set my expectations in the right place and I enjoy the heck out of it. And the occasion.
Other times, it's a nice meal for a special occasion or just to "dine out." Then, I'm expecting more, paying more, and judging more. I'm not a food snob or a restaurant critic, but I'm in a situation where I can be more critical without ruining the occasion. The quality of the food is relevant to the occasion.
The point of these analogies is to see what else you or others would add about how their listening might adjust based on occasion or even recording. I love that live Joni album, but it's badly recorded; nevertheless, when "Carey" comes on, I'm jamming with it. I forget the niceties and go with it because the music sets the occasion.
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- "She noted that studies show very heightened listening capability among those who grow up in highly stressful households, because you learn to listen veeerrry carefully for nuance in tone before someone explodes."
I didn't grow up in a stressful household, but I did have a very long career in sales where voice inflections are very important. So many times, buying signals appear in the slightest change in those inflections. When that happens, you know it is time to ask the closing question. When it comes to audio, the sales training has served me well. It has been said many times on this site, in different forums, that one of the keys to really enjoying the hobby is not to just listen, but to learn what to listen FOR. The early stereo recordings such as the early Blue Notes drive me crazy with the dual-mono they used at the time. I don't like that big hole in the middle, so I just hit the mono switch on the phono stage and enjoy it that way. Out of phase recordings drive me nuts too. In that case, I just hit the phase switch on the preamp and all is fine again. Frank |
I’m not sure I see much of an upside. You don’t usually miss what you’ve never had. Every new level of experience is expensive to me.
The one who hears the cat has to get up and open the door. |
Erik, the Turtles first lp was recorded with all voices to the left and all the instruments in the right channel.
I believe you. My point was, it wasn't recorded like this, it was cut like this. :) They probably originally recorded it intending to go to mono. Stereo hit and they didn't have the mixers to do anything else. |
Erik, the Turtles first lp was recorded with all voices to the left and all the instruments in the right channel. It could be just the opposite as I haven't seen that lp in over 50 years. This was great for aspiring musicians. When they played at the local college, the sound was quite normal and spread across the stage. XLO Reference Recordings does a vocal out of phase then next track in phase. You can't miss the difference, the sound disappears between the speakers and spreads farther out left and right. A very exaggerated soundstage. |
I too grew up in a very dysfunctional household and can see how that would make one more discerning for that coming blow. That, and it makes one more empathetic to others, situations, and in our case, audiophildom.
Finely tuned senses lead to hobbies like ours and cameras, mechanics, art and anything that tends to minutiae. From there, the descent into the rabbit hole is a given.
Also, it just begs isolation so as to enjoy, uninterrupted. This is not to say that all here are here for those reasons, but I am.
As to the novice lady friend who appreciates the newer DACs which parallels the preferences of the experienced listener, I'd say she has the advantage of still hearing things as they should be.
She never had to go through long sessions of listening, examining and questioning her beliefs, perceptions, institutional audio memory, all along second guessing themselves until they could pin down what was right.
The lady friend just happened to come along when it all matured while the avid listener had to go through learning curves and the pain of it all.
All the best,
Nonoise
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