Maintaining a "Balanced" System Design?

Clarification: The MA4 and DIG4 cables are Morrow Audio

Thr1961,

I agree on the upgrade path, the best improvements I found were with power cables, then speaker cables, then interconnects. I am testing several power cords righrt now, so I can't yet give you a final recommendation...but the Morrow Audio MAP4 and Zafino Majestic are the leaders in the clubhouse.

I have found GREAT success with Morrow Audio analog interconnects (RCA and XLR) nterconnects, and digital 75 Ohm RCA. They punch way above their cost, and right now they have a 40% sale. These are amazing value for the sound quality I've found

USB cables are Supra Excalibur, and ethernet is Audioquest Vodka cables

Suggestions: Start with the MA4 or DIG4 level and go up from there, and absolutely get the cable burn in service....the 20 day break in service is $99, and is a one time charge that covers all cables purchased...not per cable. They have a 60 day return policy, but only after 30 days; meaning you need to try them for 30 days before returning the cables.

Currently "rolling" the Zafino Fusion and Arcadia interconnects, great value but not sure if there is an improvement over the Morrow cables.

Speaker cables are currently Anti-Cables Flex 4.2 cables, but am testing the GR-Research 24 strand speaker cables as well. They are meant as DIY, but Danny will assemble them for an additional fee.

As you can see all of my recommendations are cables that are affordable, but provide great SQ.....great bang for the buck

OP,

If you are considering a speaker option change then definitely do not move forwards with cables and interconnects until you have your final destination speakers.

Typically in an upgrade cycle one will choose speakers first… then work on the upstream components to support them. Once all the components are in place then work on wires. The good news is you have chosen world class components so now it is a matter of finding speakers that are emotionally appealing to you. Your upstream equipment will make the most of them.

If you look at your system as a whole, if your music collection doesn't significantly outweigh the outlay on gear, you're missing the point.  (Of course in this day of diminishing physical media, maybe it's a case of money for nothin' and your tunes for (almost) free)

If you are interested I can send you a pair of 6 foot reference speaker cables for you to try in your system.  Then you will have an idea if they will impact your sound.  We build refence components and we do not use expensive cables at all and we get them at dealer cost!

@thr1961 

First off- Congratulations on your new Audio Research gear! I use ARC as well and I’m sure it will bring you many years of enjoyment. In reading your post regarding interconnects I don’t think you mentioned what brands you’re currently using.

As for a gauge of how much you should spend I don’t believe you should be putting any pressure on yourself to align cable/IC costs with that which was spent on your equipment, the two don’t even compare with regards to manufacturing costs or even research/dev/IP.

I’m not an advocate of overpriced designer cables but I also don’t shame those who choose to spend their money on such. What I would offer is an easy way of determining the value for yourself. 

Canare L-4E6S is one of the best audio cables made (Star Quad) and you can purchase an 8’ pair of balanced XLR I/C’s for under $100 from Blue Jeans Cable. I’ve used this for all of my balanced cable for years and have never felt like I was needing more. This is one of the most (if not the most) highly used cables in the audio industry.

The purpose of this is not necessarily to sway you into using Canare but to rather give you a starting point with an industry proven cable assembly that is the equivalent of what is used in most recording studio and live sound applications. Please purchase a pair to have on hand for comparison when you demo the multi thousand dollar I/C’s your dealer has suggested and also request your dealer make the cables available to you for a trial test in home on your own equipment.

Even if you like the higher dollar cables better at least you’ll have an accurate gauge for cost comparison. Do these really sound $1K better each or is the difference so subtle that it’s not really worth the money? Do they sound different at all? That’s the big question! 
Also- don’t EVER allow yourself to feel like you’re system is subpar because it’s not  not sporting the high level “bling” that some will say matters- it’s how it sounds that matters most.

Best-

Perhaps purchase cabling on a trial or loan basis with an iron clad return policy….

 The Cable Company used to do that, maybe they still do.  You could give them a call about that.

I was astonished at the difference mid priced power cords make, more than any speaker cables did at twice the price.

Based on the reviews and opinions on here I’ve seen, you will likely love Joseph Audio speakers!

@williewonka - thank you for the thoughtful response. I will dig into the specifics you detailed as I look at my options. 
 

@gdnrbob — I am coming around as well and will try your suggestions 

@ghdprentice — thanks for your direct experiences with cabling for ARC. It sounds like you went through a lot of cables to arrive at the Transparents plus the Audioquests for power. Unfortunately I am not seeing any options for a trial run but I suppose I could call them. 

I also appreciate your perspective on the relative investment in cables. At this point I want to find a good match with my ARC reference gear and continue to ponder my speaker options. The Stage 3 cables have a reputation as super high end, but the $15k is just speakers and two interconnects, leaving me with 3 power cords to go!

Perhaps purchase cabling on a trial or loan basis with an iron clad return policy….

Congratulations on your ARC equipment. I have been a fan of ARC for forty years and only slowly over that time were able to buy, used at first and finally moving up over the last few years to all Reference level Audio Research gear. You can see my system under my ID.

While I agree that your gear requires the top notch interconnects, cables, and power cords to get the most out of them. I don’t think I would necessarily buy it all at once and the brand your dealer is recommending. You may want to take your time and find the brand that is perfect for your tastes. Transparent are a known synergistic brand with Audio Research and the one I use the most of.

$15K is perfectly reasonable given the equipment you are talking about. If you have good gear 10 - 20% the value of your system is a good rule of thumb. The most likely big gains are likely to be the speaker cables and power cord for your amp. I use Transparent Ultra speaker cables. ~$5K, but after a year of trying to figure out the correct power cord for my Audio Research Reference 160s I found The Audio Quest Hurricane (2 meters, I have a 1m and 2m on the Ref 160m monoblocks I am currently using the 2 m sounds better) . I also experimented with all my other components and found Transparent sounded best.

I have spent a lot of time with Cardas, WireWorld, DHLabs, Harmonics, Nirvana, and several other brands. With Audio Research gear you want really transparent (not warm or cool, low noise) wires to get the very best from them. Maybe Stage III interconnects are great… never heard of them. Dealers can’t carry a lot of brands, so they carry what they can… but always recommend that.

I could write a thesis on this subject and would be happy to have a more in depth discussion.

@thr1961 ,

I can understand your dilemma. I was out of the audio loop for 30 years, until I had the funds to re-pursue my audiophile dream.

If I were you, I would try to find other Joseph Audio owners. Perhaps JA has a forum?

I own Vandersteen, and have come to learn there are certain combos that really work with those speakers. I would expect the same with Joseph Audio.

As far as cable go, I was a naysayer, but after listening to the newer Audioquest models, I was definitely a believer. Unfortunately, as you have discovered, this 'finer' listening came at a cost. So, my workaround is to buy the model or two below the newest model when they came up for sale used. Eventually, that 'new' model will be up for sale used, but at least I am buying it for 50% or so less.

Patience is a virtue...

A penny saved, is a penny earned...

Bob

Of course that brought me to looking at amplification and I am sure everyone knows the story from here...

Yup . . . I definitely know the story.

@thr1961 - having been involved in DIY cable construction over the past 10 year here are some basic things I have found makes a signficant difference

1. Cable Geometry i.e. how the wires are positioned within the cable
   • e.g. Braiding is an exapmple of a cable Geometry
   • the more advanced the Geometry, the lower the noise floor of the cable
2. ​​​​​​​Metalurgy i.e. what the wire is made of​​​​​​​
   • e.g. OFC Copper, UP-OCC copper, Silver, and UP-OCC silver
   • The better the metal, the faster the dynamic performance
3. Type of Insulation
   • each insulation has a specific Dielectric Constant e.g.
     • A Vacuum - Dk = 1.0
     • Air is 1.1 = Dk = 1.1
     • Cotton or Silk - Dk = 1.3
     • Foamed Teflon - DK = 1.45
     • Teflon - Dk = 1.2
   • a HIGHER the value of Dk - results in more distortions being "injected" into the signal carried by that piece of wire
   • Lower Dk values result in improved clarity and significantly improved micro details

So armed with that inforamtion a person can assess how well a cable will perform provided the brand of cable thay are looking at makes the information known in theri advertizing literature.

Some Companies that use the above techniques include

• Zavfino - they make excellent cables that start at a reasonable price
• In-Akustik - very good cables with a very interesting geometry, but a little more expensive
• HIJIRI - rated by Audiogon members as being one of the very best available today and again, even more expensive, but not outrageous.

I don’t subsribe to the "percentage rule" where the premise is that cables should cost a certain percentage of a system,

• because it contains absolutely NO SCIENCE !

But I do believe that cables are significantly more important than most people tend to beileve because I have applied it to components of every "level", from a $300 Mini System, to systems costing over $70k, and each time the performance improves significantly

Hope That Helps - Steve

i would start with measuring the acoustics in your room, and get that right first. Then I don’t think you can use cash as a yardstick for improvement, it is subjective. Start with speakers and amp that match, a good pre or integrated, and then your sources. As for cables power first, interconnects second, speaker wire third. I would allocate more budget to the top of that list and then work your way to the end as time and budget allow. These days expensive is not always good and good is not always expensive,