So you're scared to do it? You can post the link to the video on your website to show everyone that not only do your mods sound great, your work has a great level of quality control and consistency.
LSA Voyager GAN Amplifier
Just got mine last week. After 24 hours of play all I can say is that this is not your father's class D amplifier. There is not one thing about its sound that reminds me of the class D gremlins that I do not like. The low end filled in and now has deep impact, the midrange is the love child of a beautiful tube and clean hybrid amp - just gorgeous. Highs are very clean and extended. Spatial cues are top notch. My system has had some damn good tube and solid state amps in it before and it has never sounded this good. I am blown away with the quality of sound coming from class D amplification at this price point.
This 300 wpc amplifier is a real winner.....
This 300 wpc amplifier is a real winner.....
1,033 responses
Most all products have perfectly matched channels (maybe a few tubed based zero feedback circuits do not...because of differences in tubes)......at least to what we can hear....so who is going to buy my things because you say what you measure matters? What universe do you live in? Who do you think cares about what you say? Who? I care about what you say.....because every thought you think, every word you speak, every feeling felt and every action taken.....not only creates your reality....but affects the greater consciousness.....all of us. So, please choose your thoughts, words, feelings and actions wisely. Would you rather be right or lovng? Would you rather be miserable or happy. You choose. |
So I take that as a no. I’ll make a proposal for you that will result in exploding sales. Send me 3 samples of a product you modified and verified with your ears to be "golden samples". I’ll video record the process in 4K right from unboxing, to measuring without stopping the video. So you can see there’s no funny business going on. If all 3 products are perfectly matched channel to channel it will be incredible advertising for your service. |
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EPC:
Hired EAS to build them a demo board to show off their GaN devices. It was for sale for a few years at Digikey and other distributors around the world. Digikey discontinued it due to lack of sales (because of cost and no improvement in performance over several other cheap class D amps). Then EAS decided to rework the module for OEM sales. However since then companies like Icepower came up with better performing amp modules with integrated supplies for only $68 each including shipping worldwide in lots of 20. So I don’t expect much further interest.
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Perhaps we should reflect for a moment on the length of time that the Voyager was in "development". It was announced and then its release was repeatedly pushed back over a considerable period of time. This is pure speculation, but it makes you wonder if the original idea was for something proprietary and unique to LSA, and that for whatever reason (technology, supply, cost) that eventually didn’t work out, at which point the more "off-the-shelf" items found inside were substituted. |
Really!! then those types of mods to me then state, they are brewed up in the darkest recesses of Haiti, by certain tribes, with bone through their noses. Andy.
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The biggest problem is, even if you come up with some mods that result in a pleasant subjective experience, without the right tools for the job it's impossible to verify if you have an exact match channel to channel, or mod to mod. With high resolution audio gear even extra flux on one tiny component can add distortion. Just look at the difference 1 bad XLR solder job did on the amp Amir measured. The more mods to do, the higher the probability of inconsistencies. That's why a proper engineer verifies each and every job with the proper tools before going out the door. |
The biggest question is why you would ask this question? he he. Do jacks measure, do wires measure, does removing a power switch measure, does wire directionalty measure, does damping measure, does removing tons of parts that are not needed measure, do different brands of solder measure, does adding modified bypass caps measure, etc. into fininity measure? You answer.....since you are the one bragging about your test gear. I have no doubt you have measured ALL these things. How do they measure? Can you measure LOVE, JOY, Happiness and Peace? You certainly can FEEL them and experience them. Some day we will figure out how to measure these qualities we all want and also measure what thoughts, feelings, words and actions make these qualities grow. Now, that is some cool measurements....Please make such a machine. Please help all of us become better human beings....more tolerant, more compassionate, more joyful, more fulfilled, more loving......more fruitful.....in every way. |
I have already stated several times that my mods to not change the measurements in any way. As I say.....over and over again.....most things that change and improve the sound CANNOT be measured. You ASR objectivists do not believe this and will take it to your grave......good worm hunitng....he he. Beauty if what you experience when you are awake. You can awaken right now. Look in the mirror. You are the most beautiful person in the world. Love and kisses. Most of the assembly and layout things that ASR type people go crazy about have little or nothing to do with the sound. They are making mountains out of molehills...because..........THEY DON’T LISTEN......therefore have NO REAL information about what makes things SOUND the way they do. I want to add this.....what I just said applies to the mods I am currently doing to all class D amps. In the future, I might be changing the input stages to discrete circuits, etc.....and that may change the distortion characteristics......in fact, it is possible that it could even measure worse........but either way, it will sound better. Some op amps have some much open loop gain that they have amazing distortion numbers even though they do not sound that great. Some discrete op amps have less open loop gain (therefore less feedback is needed) and these would not have quite as low of measured distortion but could sound much better. This is why you have companies like Dartzeel, Ayre, etc., etc. using zero feedback or low feedback circuits.....n fact, the LSA is a low feedback system and one reason it does not measure as well as the Purifi module that has a TON of feedback. Lots of belief systems about this feedback thing and measurement thing....no right or wrong here....just stating what I know. |
It appears this thread gotten off topic. Can we bring it back where it belongs? Reading thru the ARS comments I wonder about Ric’s mods: Did Ric reorient/invert the PS (seems simple enough), and at least check several of the comments about distance under the modules, etc...? He has the mods posted, so Ill be looking them over |
Like this?
Finished HiFi TPA3255 Class D Power Amplifier 2.1 Subwoofer Bluetooth 5.0 300W*2 | eBay
Not yet.
I have a similar amp by Fosi though a few years old that uses TI TPA3116 chip that I use in a small 2 channel a/v setup. Even these sound very good, amazing for the price, and drive kef ls50s very well. |
Amps can measure great yet sound bad. But you know you have a winner when they measure great and sound great. No need to settle for an amp with a THD+N worse than -100dB to achieve good sound unless you’re paying under $1000. Not these days.
Who’s heard the Icepower 200AS1 modules? They’re based on the TI TPA3255 chips. I could bring a dual mono amp to market with them for $500. THD+N is 10dB better than these EVM boards in this amp. And they sound great as well. But they're newer technology than these GAN modules. So it's expected. |
Its clear that you either didn’t read my post or didn’t understand what is says. As a result, the first statement is false. The second is too- because there is way more than one factor at play! In order to get consisent distortion with less than 1 degree of phase shift at all frequencies in the audio passband there are basically two means to do it- either have wide enough bandwidth with no feedback or to have enough gain bandwidth product that it can support the feedback, especially at 10KHz and above. That’s way more than just ’mainly one factor’: Its more than just two... Look at the two distortion charts two posts above. You can clearly see a difference- the Purifi module has the gain bandwidth product to support the 70dB of feedback that module employs. There’s a lot going on there- Bruno has patents regarding the process. Its not ’mainly one factor’- there is a host of factors- poor choice of words on your part??
The Germans got out of the polystyrene film business about 10-12 years ago. Its now made in China, but the Chinese film is thicker (this according to the prior owner of REL, now retired), resulting in lower performance. Termination of the foil used in the cap makes a difference- this is well documented. There probably were differences in the caps- if they were made with German film or not for starters. I’m sure if you did some measurements a correlation to their sound quality could be found. Usually you don’t have to look very hard to find it. Many people think that because we make an all-triode class A fully differential zero feedback OTL with only a single stage of gain that the amp is really tweaky. IME they are surprised to discover that real math went into it and measurements confirm the math, and as a result the amps are really consistent and stable. I’ve been challenged by SET fans that it can’t sound right because it cancels even ordered harmonics; but since it has a cubic nonlinearity the higher orders fall off at a higher rate as the order of the harmonic is increased, allowing the 3rd (which is treated by the ear nearly the same as the 2nd harmonic, meaning its innocuous as long as its at a reasonable level) to mask the higher orders. They are smoother and more detailed than any SET made. As you can see, there’s a lot more to it than just ’the right distortion signature’; to get that a lot of stuff is going on. The same is true of any amplifier. If you get the right distortion signature the kind of amp it is becomes irrelevent. There’s nothing special about any of the technologies- DHTs, pentodes, Static Induction Transistors (VFETs), GaNFETs and the like. The trick it that distortion signature. You can arrive there by tweaking, but if you are only using your ears you’re really taking a shot in the dark. The chief engineer at HH Scott once said "If it measure good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, you’ve measured the wrong thing." That statement is very much in play in class D. |
I’ve determined execution of power supply in particular (to drive harder loads with lower distortion) and in some cases (like for use with a tube pre-amp, typically higher output impedance) input stage as well are major factors with Class D amps that distinguish the gems from the pack. A limited Icepower Class D amp from an exceptional one. Limited meaning sounds OK with most speakers. Exceptional means brings out the best with most any speakers. Probably same with GaN, perhaps even more so with the stakes raised? GaN based amps are newer so I would expect the best is largely still yet to come there. I have 8 Class D amps running in my house (see system page...can you identify all 8?). Cost ranges from ~$100 MSRP to over 6K. Also done a lot of research and listening to various systems with Class D amps in recent years. Looking forward to trying some newer GaN offerings as well perhaps in the very near future. I’d be willing to bet GaN is a technological enhancement that can deliver higher levels of performance but results may still vary perhaps even widely depending on implementation details and system its used in.
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Trouble is that fast rising distortion into 4ohms after only 20w!! of power. That will not get fixed easily. And this could be the reason why (it’s a bridged amp). Andy Quote: "the fact that there are four amplifiers here, not two. Strange that the company is going after audiophile market yet bridged this amp for higher power."
This is much much better falling distortion into 4ohms all the way up to 200W!!
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By 'potential' here do you mean impedance? Its sensible engineering to have the outer foil connected to the lower impedance circuit, that minimizes RF ingress. |
Here is an interesting story. My friend wanted to have some 1uf polystyrene 100 V caps custom made. He got the aluminum foil from Dave Fletcher at Sumiko.....and sent that to 4 different cap making companies along with Mogami wire for the leads, and his own solder for attachment. Since most polystyrene comes from Germany from the same plant.....there was practically nothing different in each custom cap. When we got back all the samples I was the one that tested them for sound. They all sounded different.....yup....that's right.....they all sounded different. Maybe different tension or whatever.....who knows. The "everything makes a difference" game is very very subtle. All brands of polyprop or whatever caps sound different from each other....even if they are the same length. If you orient the cap with the outside foil to the output of lower potential it sounds best. None of this can be measured. Even within brands there are various versions that have different sound. Check out all the versions of Mundorf caps, for instance. Read the reviews of these caps.....they all sound different. If you use silver wire instead of copper wire it sounds different......no difference in measurements. This game is not simple....it is infinite....just like our soul is. If all caps made from the same material sound different....then there are a lot of things coming into play here. Check out VH Audio (V-caps) and their detailed description of how they designed their expensive caps. Measurements can tell you some things......but most things need to be listened to to get to the truth of the purity of the sound.....to really KNOW something. |
Not just that, if you read a little more about them, caps of the same uF (capacitance) value, also have different inductance, resistance, and leakage current, and they are made as electrolytic’s, plastic’s, or even paper, this is why they sound different, because of all these specs which can be measured! Andy |
Only if you're a scammer that tweaks and asks for money without any tech info on what's being done to the owner's equipment, and how it effects in technical terms the sound and the specs. Andy A lot of competent designers say there is a difference in capacitors that measure the same, but are made from different materials. |
kisses and hugs. What is so nice about Audiogon is that we allow different opinions (Including yours...we would not kick you off even though 95% of people here do not believe as you). ASR is a "believe as we do or we kick you off " forum. Really loving and open, wouldn’t you say......he he. May all be blessed. ASR is the last stand of the objectivists.....really funny actually. I hope they keep that hill and don't lose it to the ever charging subjectivists throwing their hand grenades of non measuring tweaks at them. What fun all of this is. I hope none of you take any of this seriously. What is said here does not (to much) affect the happiness of the world......however, every word you say......does send out a ripple in the ocean of consciousness. So, choose your reality carefully. For whatever you put out....comes back to you and goes out to the whole world. Joy is always present. Be a smile millionaire, its free. |
True of any amp regardless. There will always be people with the above opinions about any piece of equipment. Thank you for once again sharing the obvious amidst more self promotion bs. |
While some measurements may bring some sonic bliss.....still most things you do to an amp (that cannot be measured) still change the sound.....in fact, an amp designed by anyone to have the distortion structure that Ralph says can sound blah, OK, good, very good or great depending on the implementation of a million different factors. Ralph thinks its mainly one factor.....to each his own. I play with the other million things and they all change/improve the sound. If you have ordinary binding posts on your amp....you have ordinary binding post sound.....no matter what the distortion reads. This is something I have spent over 40 years playing with. If you have a belief that these things that I say do not matter......then it does not matter how many years you have been making amps or whatever......you will still not have any real knowledge about the sound of parts and execution. Basic design is one thing.......how you implement it....is just as important. Designing and tweaking go hand in hand. One without the other is like being one handed. I have always been able to improve the sound of every component that I have ever had......not matter what the basic measurements.....and what I do.....does not make the measurments better. My customers for over 30 years agree. Most high end companies.....both measure and tweak after they measure......some do not. Believe what you want. I believe my ears. Beauty if everywhere......joy is every breath. I hug you.....you are loved. |
This statement is false. People talk about the sonic signature of an amplifer- that is its distortion signature. The problem isn't that the 'objective measurements' have little to do with the sound- they have everything to do with it- the problem is that the important measurements are rarely published anywhere. If you want to know what is needed to create an amp that sounds like music, here are the things you need to see: less than 1% phase shift at 20Hz and 20KHz the same harmonic distortion at all frequencies, not just 100Hz (as is typically measured). Either one of two things- either you have the primary distortion components be the 2nd and 3rd such that they can mask the higher orders. or the distortion is well below 100dB down (keeping in mind that this is true even at 10-15KHz). Or both. IM distortion must be low- 0.05% or less. If you satisfy these specs, you'll have an amp that sounds very musical. And if the amp does not, you can forecast what it will sound like. But most of this information is never published.
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I never said all audiophile products are unnecessary; only you are unnecessary. People can choose for themselves what sounds "best" to them. They don't need some self serving self interested guru peddling bs to them about what tweakie wire or rubber band sounds "best". Some people like 10 scoops of sugar in their coffee, others prefer it black. To each his own. |
Kuribo, The world of one.....(he he...we are all one....spiritually).....is actually the game you play. According to you.....all "audiophile" cables, footers, tweaks, fuses, cable lifters, ground enhancers, grounding systems, component stands, etc......are unnecssary and therefore all companies selling these things are snake oil salesman. Same would apply to any company that claims they put in a "better sounding part" in their latest version of their amp or whatever......so this would mean almost all high end audio companies are also snake oil salesman. And all the godzillion of people who use these components and accessories are all duped and fooled by this world wide conspiracy to take our money. So, we are all just gullible fools and all those people selling us these things are just laughing on the way to the bank. What a fantasy world you live in.....You certainly cannot talk to hardly any other audiophile without immediately getting an eye brow lift. It does not matter that I make a few dollars or millions of dollars doing what I love. What matters is the truth. The truth, that is shown when one listens. Ego oil is way more hazardous to our health and well being than any audio tweak. Love oil is what we all need and want. I love you.....you are beautiful.....just the way you are. |
Ric - the thread is supposed to be about the Voyager amp and impressions. The same in reverse would be true if the title of the thread was how does the Voyager amp measure and people chimed in about listening (would be rude). Obviously, some people not only follow the Jim Jones of audio (and whatever flavor the 900 people who drank the Kool Aid or flavored drink came mixed with the Valium to get to the promised land or wherever) and that is the first issue. The second issue is the thread title and anyone with any sort of manners would start there own thread and expouse whatever their lack of understanding is and anyone who likes the Kool Aid flavor can join in. I own two of the products (and as I noted a sample of one battery in a package that doesn't measure up to snuff is not scientific evidence of anything and there is lots of information if someone cares to read it about appropriate sample sizes in any scientific study) as well as significant experience with a third that a friend owns (all amplifiers) in which ASR has done their thing and I noted earlier it is either horrible luck or a problem with the way it is done. Those measurements and observations about the case used in one product couldn't be more off the mark about the qualities about the amplifiers in question. So there is no sense in responding to anything expoused. The vast majority of people with real knowledge already know the situation. It is noted in the Audio Circle thread I linked earlier as well as in various other places - e.g. Reddit (the title listed below) and various other places - to me there is no harm for someone to live in an alternative reality as long as they do their thing and don't impede those of us who actually know what reality is. Let them enjoy.
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Totally agree with this comment. I sold the modded Voyager and kept my CODA #8 because I liked the low freq better on the CODA. The modded Voyager was better on top over the CODA. The stock Voyager was about the same as the CODA (if I remember correctly).
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If an amp outputs an exact version of the input only larger, then it is adding nothing to the input signal and is indeed a neutral wire with gain. If the output signal deviates substantially from the input, it is not an amplifier, it is an effects box. That isn’t BS, it’s simple physics and common sense. |
At some point I might experiment with adding large banks of low impedance capacitors to the power supply along with modified Wima bypass caps. Trouble is, the brand of caps I want to try is backordered almost a year. Adding a bank of low impedance caps can increase dynamics and slam. You would need 4 sets of caps....since it is dual mono and plus and minus supply.....but there is plenty of room inside. We shall see. |
The trouble with this kind of thinking is there is no reality to it. What you are saying is that if an amp measures great then it is neutral and if it does not measure great it is colored.....this is pure BS. The objective measurements just show numbers.....they have little to do with the sound of an amp. You can take a great measuring amplifier and put it on a rubbery feet and it sounds rubbery......and still measures the same. You can put a junk power cord on it and it sounds junky. You can change the output connector to some junk connector (or maybe it already has junk ones on there) and you get the junk sound of the connector. None or these things or a million other things inside the amp that make audible differences, including damping are measureable......this is the flaw in your thinking. Objectivists say things like what you did because they do not listen to components.....let alone to footers, cables, jacks, wires, solder, resistors, caps, damping, etc. into infinity. They just look at numbers on a machine and call it a day. It certainly simplifies buying equipment. But you will not get the best sound that way. You have to listen to things and compare. Once you realize that "everything makes a sonic difference" then that kind of black and white mentality is seen for what it is.......words meaning nothing. Most people in high end audio are subjectivists.....we listen and decide what flavors we want....but a small minority do the opposite....they do not listen and just buy stuff for specs......they worship specs.....sorry...specs are not sound. However, some of these objectivists go around to forums and threads and tell everyone their "truth".....and to not be fooled by all this "snake oil". They wave their engineering 101 bible in the air and claim to know something. The only thing in audio to know is how something sounds.....this is real knowledge. If you are not willing to listen and find out the SONIC TRUTH then you have your head in a hole in the sand. The real fun is discovering some little tweak that cost you nothing or practically nothing that improves your sound. This is the biggest rush of all. For instance...getting all your cables off the floor.....and you can use cardboard to do it.....way better imaging and purity.....and costs practically zero unless you buy expensive risers. Of course, there is no measured improvement with this tweak. Happy listening, you holy beautiful beings. Heaven is now....Breath it in. I certainly understand that some people are subjectivists but draw a line at trying certain things.....their brain just cannot get a handle on why a footer or whatever would make a difference.....but they do listen to components and compare the sound......so, it is not a black and white objectivists versus subjectivists game....there are infinite shades of it.......just like we all want to love and to be loved and be happy but we go about it in different ways. Follow YOUR highest excitement.....not someone elses. |
Measurements do tell the whole story- the objective story. Designers listen for the same reason chefs taste their food before serving, despite having used a recipe for years- final qc- does the sound/taste meet their standards. |