Loud Snap at High Volume

@stephendunn

Seems that pretty much everything has been identified as the culprit here at one time or another.

I thought I had read that you were going to discuss this with your dealer. I may have missed it, but did you have a chance to talk with them and if so what was his/her opinion of what was up?

It seems doubtful to me that your D'Agostino integrated is clipping. Not sure on damping but 0.1 ohm output impedance doesn't work to a high damping factor...?

I reread and based on no distortion until the pop (and that may not be the best way to describe it, I know what you're referring to) occurs, it seems like all is under control and sounding fine until the reality of physics get in the way.

The bottoming out tells us the excursion limits of the driver. After that it's math as regards the combo you can get, low deep bass, and or loud volume. Even if it doesn't seem like low bass when its pops, if its pops at 95 plus, like mine might, then it's a volume thing perhaps more so than low low bass. it all adds up in speed of the cone and the excursion limits (so far as I know).

That loud snap is the sound of you clipping your amplifier..speakers don't appreciate it. 

@musicaddict Thanks for your input.  Yes, the X2's are fabulous in every way except for this limitation, which, as I've said, might be saving my hearing.  I have thought of high passing the Z2s which sounds like it would solve this problem and maybe even get me better bass.  The Z2's go down to 40hz on paper and don't seem to benefit when I add a subwoofer off the speaker terminals.

No guarantees. I'd bet a fortune you are bottoming out the mid/woofer drivers.

I own Michael's Raidho D2 loudspeakers and what you describe is exactly what I might hear if I had the music program amplified to high for them. Everything sounds great and then "POP" or multiples. It's bass and a small cones can only go so loud.

I have a class D amp with 1kw into 4ohms and a 2000 damping factor so I do not blame the amp. I know I need to high pass but they go to 30 in room on their own. I just try to watch the volume levels (mid 80s for me).

I imagine those X2s are fabulous in most every other way. Classical music is pretty tough when it comes to intense transients. Consider high passing the Z2s a bit to relieve the ultimate low end and adding sub(s). Good luck!

Those ribbon tweeters Michael designed are the best I've owned. I had a pair of small Scansonic MB2.5s (by Michael) and even that slightly 'heavier' sealed ribbon tweeter bested the Dynaudio Esotar 2 I listened to on a pair of Sapphires I owned for five years. I've never heard 'distressful' noises from them, just silky treble...

@msstl  Interesting analysis.  Thanks for doing it.  Explains a lot.  Because this movement starts so softly, my tendency was to begin listening at around 80db, which meant--because of the extreme dynamic range--by the time I hit the peaked highs I was pushing 100db, when I would hear the snap.  And, again, this snap comes at the peak of the highs not during any of the drum rolls or beats.

@ozzy62 As I mentioned, it seems that I can play my system at a sustained 95db.  It is just when there is a peak beyond that coming from a sustained and building wall of sound that I get the snap.  Still, you would think the Z2's could handle this.  I posted my experience thinking that other folks with ribbon tweeters had encountered similar issues.  

OK, just listened to the piece. The drum rolls occur between 9 minutes into the piece to just over the 10 minute mark. There is an incredible amount of very, very deep bass involved, but I heard no cracks or snaps of any type on my stereo.  My system is a pair of Ohm 1000s powered by a Schiit Lyr 3 with a Multibit DAC and Aegir amp. I also have a GE Supersub X to handle the low end. The Ohms have an active high pass filter at 70 Hz to let the sub do the bass work. 

I didn't pull my sound level meter out, but I listened at my preferred level, which is typically in the 80 to 85 dB range, which is as loud as I want to hear music these days.

I also downloaded the track and looked at it in Adobe Audition. The track is just over 16 minutes long. The dynamic range is quite amazing -- you don't see many recordings like this. 

 -- Over the entire track, the =average= level is -30 dB
 -- The first seven minutes has an average level of -35 dB
 -- The last five minutes has an average level of -42 dB
 -- However, the average level of the range from just past 9 minutes to about 10.5 minutes has an increase in the average level to about -20 dB
 -- The drum strike peaks jump all the way to 0 db, so you are talking about a 30 dB peak over the average level of the whole piece, and still 20 dB peaks over the middle section.

I also looked at a frequency analysis, and the vast majority of those big drum peaks are in the low frequency range with the highest point well below 100 Hz. Audition doesn't give a lot of graphic resolution under 100 Hz, but it seemed pretty clear that it wasn't rolling off in the subsonic range.

The thing you need to look at is how your are listening to the soft parts. What is the listening level for the first seven minutes? If you are listening to this section at 90 dB, you are asking the speakers (and amp) to reproduce a 120 dB kettle drum strike with a ton of bass energy.  That's a challenge for most any system. Interesting, in terms of dBs, all of the drum strike sections peaked right at 0 dB, but the bass energy differed slightly between them, with the third one having a slightly higher bass profile. 

I wouldn’t expect speakers in that price range to have trouble handling 95 db peaks. Most mid fi gear can coast through that.

@misstl I misspoke at the onset.  It is Shostakovich's 8th (The Stalingrad) not Mahler's 8th.  The 2016 DG recording with Andris Nelsons conducting the Boston Symphony.  It is approximately 2/3 of the way through the final movement, Allegretto. There are a succession of drum rolls followed by crescendoing strings, winds and horns.  It is on the third crescendo that I get the snap.  Be interested to know how your speaker handles it at 95db!

Just out of curiosity, what is the specific Mahler 8th recording that does this? It'd be interesting to look at what's in the recording at that point.

@erik_squires I tried plugging the ports with dense foam, did not influence the "snap".

@onhwy61 I downloaded Decibel X on my iPhone and the crescendo where the peak appears spiked to 95db.

@mijostyn My program source is Qobuz streamed through an 432 Evo Aeon MkII playing in bit perfect to a Playback Designs MPD 8 Dream DAC.  And, yes, the snap happens in the same place.

So playing around with the Decibel X made me realize a few things.  When I drop the volume so that the peak is 90db or less I do not get the snap.  And at this level it is just as "live" sounding and of course no doubt better for my hearing.  The system will play at a sustained 95db (ear plugs in) with no problem.  It's just when there is a sustained build up to that level or above that brings a snap and in some cases a complete drop out of the speakers before they come back on.  Which means some protection circuitry is kicking in.  Not good and certainly not enjoyable to play at that sustained level.

My conclusion is it's the tweeter making this noise when pushed.  Since it happens equally in both tweeters I doubt it is a faulty tweeter, rather the limit of the design.  The tricky part is that the volume control on the DAG, rather than a number, is where the needles are pointing on the gauge while you have your finger on the up or down button.  Meaning it is difficult to pick an exact volume level as you might with electronics that give you a number.  Since the system is so dynamic, picking the right listening level that gives you room for a peak at 90db or so is tricky.  I think in fact that I have to use the Decibel+ to do this, i.e. set the initial level in the low 80's.  But of course it depends on the recording and it's dynamic range.

Maybe this tweeter snap--if that's where it's coming from--is a blessing in disguise, making me be more careful of the peaks I subject my hearing to.

@8th-note Don't know which Borresen speakers you were listening to but the Z2's are supposed to have the same tweeters as the other models up to their large 05 array.  I do plan on speaking with the dealer.  Be interesting to see if they've ever heard the tweeters react like this. 

As an beginner at the actual mechanics behind amplification "snapping" would scare me that it would be voltage discharge from amp capacitors or something else in the output stage, rather than something inside the speaker. I may be missing something, though :)

I heard Borreson speakers at an audio show that were playing at ear splitting levels. I loved the sound and went back to the room a few times. On the afternoon of the last day when it was slow they played a hard core cut at concert volume which was fun to hear (I used to record hard core bands). My point is that there is no way that your speakers should be making any sort of snap at something like 90 dB. I would suggest contacting Borreson and ask if they have any experience with this. It will also be interesting to see if their customer service is commensurate with the price of their speakers.

I once had an "Ace of Base" album with the song "All that she wants".

At a certain, and repeatable, point, my speakers made the sound of a sliding patio door being forcefully slammed shut (kudos to my system). I disposed of the CD.

Your problem sounds like a driver bottoming out.

Voice coils bottoming out make a "clunk" with a little ring in it. They do not "snap."

@stephendunn What are you using for a program source? Does the snap happen at the very same place in the music every time or only when the volume is up?

You must be well over 90dB to cause the woofer to bottom out.  Use an SPL meter to accurately measure your listening levels.

@erik_squires  Thanks for the suggestion.  I will try that although the snap comes at high peaks not low.  Should have mentioned that.

The Borrensen web site says the tweeter crosses over at 2.5KHz.  That seems too high for the tweeter to generate a whiplash sound by itself.  However, my first guess goes with what Erik says -- a woofer bottoming out. That can make a cracking sound, particularly if the recording contains subsonic material. I heard one recording the other day where the musicians were on a wood platform. Everything sounded fine on my second system (no sub) but you could hear them stomping here and there on the main system with a subwoofer.  The sub didn't bottom out, but the noise wasn't very musical. 

If you have access to DSP or tone controls, it'd be interesting to see if the problem continues if youi back off a bit on the bass, or can cut the response below 30 or 40 Hz.

@erik_squires    Erik has got the answer. The dynamic range of classical music can be huge. Play Fanfare for the Common Man with cannons and turn the volume down until you don't hear any distortion. That will be your approximate system limit. If you want to play loud and not damage loudspeakers you might want to look at loudspeakers that can do that with ease, like big horn systems. 

It may be you are overdrivign the woofers.  Try plugging the ports on the rear and see if the problem vanishes.  Not saying you should run all the time like this, but it is possible severe low frequency signal could cause excess excursion below the port frequency.

Don't know where the ribbons are crossed over.  This is my first experience with ribbon tweeters.  Love the sound of them, but maybe they can't be pushed.  Discouraging.

If it's not clipping, my first guess is something with the ribbons, but I'll reiterate that its a guess.  Any idea how low the ribbons are crossed over?