Table, arm, cart, phono stage/preamp, power amp, speakers, cables, listening room.
Looking for the best moving coil cart that is around $5K used
I currently have a Dynavector drt xvs1 and am looking to upgrade. In my experience, the TT has little to do with the sound. I have a $400 Pioneer PL 71, and It gives me just as good of sound a my VPI-Scoutmaster . I’m looking for a used moving coil cart around $5K. I like clear sound, not too bright, but very articulate and good tight bottom end. Please give your suggestions and why. BTW my phono preamp is a Rhea Signature with new low noise tubes. Sounds great, just looking for the elusive unicorn
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The above post written by itsjustme is spot on. I have a real world example that illustrates his point. The turntable involved in this anecdote is a VPI Prime and when I first bought it, I was having trouble dialing it in. Part of the problem was that I was comparing it with a Technics SL12OO. Direct drive vs. belt and all that. I bought a Phoenix Engineering Eagle PSU and Roadrunner Tachometer, which solved the speed difference between the two TTs. One of my favorite records is Time Further Out by the Dave Brubeck Quartet, with Joe Morello on drums. I am a drummer, Joe and I both studied with George Stone, and I worshipped Joe the way kids will. So much so that I bought and still own a set of Ludwigs just like Joe used. Well on Time Further Out, the recording of the drums is magnificent, so much so that on certain tracks I can hear the air passing through the air port on the top of the bass drum. That is I can hear it with the Prime plugged into the Eagle PSU, or using the SL1200GAE. That is because the speed is held consistent, which can be seen with the Roadrunner tach. At the same time, the speed can be deliberately changed up or down on either TT without losing the ability to hear the air port. But, if I remove the Eagle and the Prime is plugged directly into the wall, even though the bass drum tone does not change, the air port vanishes. With tight control of the power supply flutter goes down and this can definitely be heard on a good TT. |
handymann At $5000 used, you have many wonderful phono cartridge options. Nothing is perfect in high end, so chose something which best suits your preferences. Try a used stone body Koetsu for sheer tonal character or perhaps VDH Colibri African Blackwood Mk.2 series if you cherish speed and dynamics. See if you can borrow something first, if possible. |
I read recently that the most important part of a phonograph system is the turntable, followed by the tonearm, folled lastly by the cart. It doesn't make any sense putting a $5K cart on a $400 TT/Arm. I would recommend selling your two tt setups and buying one new one of the best quality TT and Arm possible and run it with the cart you have now. |
I don't want to write a treatise on analog v. digital. I have a Nantise/Lenco turntable with an Ikeda Kai cartridge, a 407 long tonearm, a Star Sound Platter Ground, and a H-Cat X12 current phono stage for analog. For digital I have a Surface touch screen control unit, and for digital, an AMS music server from Archiving Vinyl, an Avarii dac with JFET amplification. My digital sources are all double DSD initially on SACD. There are many differences. For one their sound stages differ. Digital is what the mikes receive and analog is what the recording engineer seeks and is more of what an audience hears. Second, there is more detail in digital, of instrument noises such as more harmonic as well as fingers sliding on strings. Finally, digital has highly defined locations of the sound stage and better high end. But analog is smoother, has more music hall or studio decay, and has more familiar instrument sounds with brass and drums not accurately reproduced. These observations come fro about ten instances where I have both analog and digital versions of recordings. There is no question that digital captures more detail and precise location of musicians and signers and that some of this is not music but it contributes to realism. Vinyl, however, gives more hall decay and sounds familiar. |
Papafrgog, I wouldn't worry so much about what others here say regarding your Linn. First, I got to hear needledrops on PinkFish Media that, to me, showed me that a Linn Lp12 was the best of the bunch, which included an SME and the old Technics direct drive(with mods), among others. The thing is, with music, it's not all an intellectual exercise. In other words, you can get enjoyment from the actual music, unlike some other hobbies, where you worry if you really have the best. Number 2: I heard the Technics SP10 from a well-known audio company, and they also do mods to this turntable. It was not in the same league as a well set up Linn, at least by my standards, which includes enjoying the music, and getting off on it(maybe affecting you emotionally?). |
I agree with tooblue. Although the rewards might not come immediately, and it may require work on your part, I believe $5,000 is too much to spend on a cartridge, when your turntable seems to be a limiting factor(I have to admit to not being a fan of the one Scout[or Scoutmaster], although modified, I heard at a show. It was not very dynamic, or emotion-inducing to me, but may have been limited due to the modifications.). |
Handyman, it’s your money, your ears and your equipment. Do WTF you want. Their are a lot of experienced audiophiles here with the ego to match. Trust me, they make mistakes too. I love my TT and I get gut punched every time I tell someone here it’s a Linn. What I can say is that changes in the TT really can make a noticeable difference in SQ. For me, it was the power supply upgrade. Hugenificant difference. Changing to audioquest leopard TA cable improved SQ to me. And all these smaller changes to my TT have (I think) magnified the difference that my TA upgrade (EkosSE) and cartridge upgrade ( Lyra Etna) made. You have a good cartridge assuming stylus and cantilever are in good shape. There’s never 1 fix and I believe in the synergies of components so make it a process to enjoy and learn from as you search for that SQ that YOU want. |
Handyman, it’s your money, your ears and your equipment. Do WTF you want. Their are a lot of experienced audiophiles here with the ego to match. Trust me, they make mistakes too. I love my TT and I get gut punched every time I tell someone here it’s a Linn. What I can say is that changes in the TT really can make a noticeable difference in SQ. For me, it was the power supply upgrade. Hugenificant difference. Changing to audioquest leopard TA cable improved SQ to me. And all these smaller changes to my TT have (I think) magnified the difference that my TA upgrade (EkosSE) and cartridge upgrade ( Lyra Etna) made. You have a good cartridge assuming stylus and cantilever are in good shape. There’s never 1 fix and I believe in the synergies of components so make it a process to enjoy and learn from as you search for that SQ that YOU want. |
@handymann I would read @chakster and @atmasphere posts very carefully if I were you. Other than that, you already have a top notch MC cart, meaning that any change at this level is more a matter of taste and/or system matching. I'm guessing that you've never heard the XV1s performing at its best in your rig. |
handymann Nothing could be further from the truth that a TT has little to do with the sound. The analog chain is much more complex than you are currently appreciating. Do yourself a favor and do some reading provided on this link: http://hifigem.com/ Mr. Merrill will debunk some misinformation which will potentially help you and most any other reader. Lastly, don't purchase a used phono cartridge unless your goal is to own a cartridge that is no longer in production. Why would you do that anyway??? |
Handyman- I want to comment on the speed/DD/strobe thing. I don't know how much technical knowledge you have about turntables and analog sound playback, but a strobe tells you very, very little. Its not speed accuracy that we need, it is consistency and absence of noise. Its the small, maybe tiny, higher frequency changes to rotation speed that create distortion, combined with all sorts of vibrations. Think about this: the vibrations mix with tiny groove wall ridges. How does your cartridge tell one from another? Answer: it cannot. It reproduces the music plus the vibrations = distortion. Similarly a small difference from the proper 33 1/3 rpm speed is generally inaudible except to those with perfect pitch. Since we can tune to any note we like, even with perfect pitch speed accuracy is largely over rated. But CHANGES in speed create wow and flutter. I doubt your table wows (low frequency changes), but since it is a direct drive, with nothing to absorb the imperfect drive of the AC motor, it WILL flutter. This creates distortions that are easily audible and generally not harmonically correlated - they are generally multiples of 60 hz. A suspended table filters out vibrations. A belt filters out motor vibrations> a heavy latter is a flywheel - used n pretty much everything that demands true speed consistency (not accuracy, consistency - its OK if it is consistently off by 0.1%) Maybe the Pioneer sounds great. I cannot say. They may have the worlds quietest motor and the worlds deadest plinth - really, they may. But your technical argument is worse than weak, its just dead wrong. Remember - the $5000 cart you are willing to buy still, debate aside, tell the difference between a groove and a vibration from a motor or the room. Filter them out. And for heavens sake match the cartridge compliance to the tonearm mass, and get VTA right - those are free! G |
tooblue: I appreciate your response and will experiment with what you have mentioned. I think I will mount the Urushi to my VPI and hear what happens. As of now, both the DRT XV1s and the Koetsu sound very similar. I just posted a thread about a record clamp. I'm going to start using the clamp all the time. Maybe that's where I'm going off the rails. All I want to do is learn and appreciate all the invaluable info I get from all of you. Thanks for your patience and indulgence. |
Handymann you are wrong on this account, I am 65 been to at least 20 ZZ Top concerts as well as others and still have a very good ear, just had that all checked out with a professional 4 years ago as I started to build my retirement system. I find the sound much more revealing on a really good table with a cheap cart or budget cart as to a high end cart on a cheap table/arm. I have to say though when you get it all right, wow there is no looking back. My current table is a VPI Prime/outer ring clamp/BDR racing clamp and SDS and set up well, with this combo the differences between things are always very noticeable, I run a ZYX Universe, a Dynavector DRT XV1s, a Mayabies Standard and a Grace F9R rebuilt by soundsmith with great results and the table allows me to enjoy the differences. With this said, if you don't hear a difference I would just keep the Pioneer and enjoy the music as you receive it, there isn't much you can do and that isn't a bad thing it's just a real thing. Good luck and happy listening, I wish you well. Tooblue |
Handyman-if your have a top notch digital setup, you would think digital is equal or better than vinyl. Not all vinyl sounds good, actually, if I was to play a Beatles album, it would be the mono version, the stereo versions sucked compared to the mono’s. I have around $15k retail of a vinyl setup and there are times that vinyl sounds better and there are many times that a DSD or especially a new MQA cut would sound better than vinyl. I’m just saying don’t discount a good digital setup. You would have to spend at least $10-$15k on a good vinyl setup to compete with a digital setup costing 1/2 that. IMO |
tooblue: I know you and others, think I've lost my mind, what little of it is left-too much "60's." I invite u to try setting up an inexpensive TT and strap a primo cart on it. If your set up is correct and the TT is good, I really don't think you will hear that much difference. I've read all the responses of how I need to pack it in and concentrate on "the flavor of the month", but I stand by what I have said. I have top notch hardware, as well as vinyl. After I altered my Pioneer tone arm, to give it greater mass, to me, there's very little difference in the final sound. There have been many kind recommendations, and I will contemplate these suggestions.. |
Handymaan, I know of an Ikeda 9TT cartridge for sale. It costs new $4400. He has had it for about three years, but I seldom hear him using it. He has not advertised it He wants $2000. I had better check to see if it is still available,if you want it. You can call: eight hundred plus 820 and thirteen and fourteen. |
@drew_k, From all carts that I own or used to own, all except for one are MC cartridges (Lyra Etna, Dynavector TE Kaitora Rua, Madrigal Carnegie One (by Mark Levinson), Linn Troika, etc., and only $99 Shure M97XE Phono Cartridge is MM and sounds excellent for the price on my TTs. HOWEVER, I do believe that a cartridge makes a huge difference and I agree with you that the sound can be maid or ruined, but for a different reason. The biggest disadvantage with a great and expensive cart might be that you can hear all flaws of the original recording. IMHO, it has nothing to do with a cart, but a master record. |
I've been all over the place on this topic over the past ten years or so. I started with your opinion - that as long as you had a steady, well set-up turntable as a foundation, the cartridge would be all that really mattered. I've since come around to realizing that it all matters - the cartridge, the turntable, the set-up, and the phono amplifier (and perhaps the SUT, if needed). I've heard a VPI Prime at an audio show with a bone stock Denon 103 cartridge - that's a sub $400 MC which, by all estimation, should be like nails on the chalkboard. It was wonderful, and the turntable brought out it's very best. Now, that same TT can rise to the occasion if you decide to strap a $4,000 Lyra on its 3D tonearm, too. Both the TT and cartridge can be made or ruined by the phono amplifier. Much of the time, those traits that people are really looking for when upgrading their rig - sparkle without harshness up top, a tight, controlled bottom end, and silence in the grooves - are actually achieved through the right phono amplification. With LOMC, an SUT is really important, too, and they aren't all that expensive in the scheme of things. For your Pioneer, I'd be tempted to stay in the under $1,000 segments just because there are so many good choices nowadays from the likes of Ortofon, Hana, and the venerable Denon D103 and D103R. Of course, they'll all sing on your scoutmaster, too. Consider upgrading the VPI with the upgraded tonearm base and a 3D arm, and maybe a VAS Nova Cartridge (Steve Leung from VAS can probably hook you up with all of the above). |
I truly love this forum. About the time I start thinking I know a little concerning high fidelity, I find out how little I actually know. I will admit, sometimes my opinion is clouded by an adult beverage or two, but still think I have a discerning ear. Although it's unlikely, I will get any takers, I live in the Nashville Tn area and am sending out a standing invitation to anyone wanting to stop by to explain to me, what I'm not hearing. Maybe I spent too many years at ZZ Top concerts, where even if u were on the last row, the sound was literally ear splitting. Yes-I'm an older guy and as I have mentioned, can't hear much above 12Khz. Perhaps what I'm missing, is in this higher range?? I've been into sound since I was four and went to my uncles and. saw where he had disassembled my grandparents hi-fi and placed the two speakers in different parts of the room. I went home and took my small tubed record player apart and took out the 4" speaker and have been intrigued by sound ever since. No such thing as stereo back then, or it was a fairly new thing. Anyway, guess my ears are old-maybe too old to hear the difference. According to my RTA, I have a pretty good room response. I'm not ready for the old folks home just yet🙂 |
You are limited by the tt arms you have since I’m guessing the vpi has the jmw9 tonearm. If you go with an upgraded cartridge up to $5k, you need to upgrade the tonearm, maybe using the vpi tt with a new vpi 3D arm, 10” or 12” if they would fit. I would also disagree with you on the comment that your tt’s sound the same or not the weak link. |
Ditch the Pioneer and get the VPI tuned up and listen to it with your Koetsu. If you still can't tell the difference, I'd give up on analogue as you aren't getting your money's worth. I say that as an Urushi (not 'Urishi') owner. It deserves a well set up deck and an excellent phono stage like you have - but not on an inappropriate arm on a far less than stellar player.. |
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To Whart and Invictus005: probably there is dust onto the diamond, when then diamond is not clean you can roll the dice with any cart when you can't heat differences between Tonearms and Tables you can close the book and save a lot of money. Buy your flavor of the week and enjoy it. |
There is no "best moving coil cartridge" and the higher price on the used market does not mean that 5k is better than 1k cartridge. The used marked is the platform where everyone could find a great cartridge for very good price. Not every auction ending at the high price. Some of the brands are overlooked, some are overpriced. And some brand (or the models) from the 70s/80s are unknown to the most of the buyers. I’ve never had an issues with used cartridges, but i’ve had an issues with new cartridges. Started from the very expensive MC carts (up to 4,5k) i slowly realized that the price is not so important when you’re looking for the cartridge that sounds the best for yourself in your own system. Practically those expensive MC carts are terrible, my broken new ZYX Premium 4D was a good lesson. Finding the good preamp for LOMC is a pain in the ass (just an extra expenses). Your Pioneer turntable with its tonearm is perfect for MM cartridges, under 1k you can find extremely good (and rare) Moving Magnet carts. Recently i sold my spare AT-ML170, it’s hard to find any better cartridge, the price was under $800, easily compete with 4k MC cartridges! Another one has been shipped last month to Florida, it was NOS (never used) Victor X-1 with box and docs, the price was $1490 for a brand new cart from the late 70s. That Victor is also hard to beat by any overpriced MCs. They are all from the same era as your Pioneer. Personally i use Pioneer own top of the line MM cartridge (Pioneer PC-1000mkII) and i love it! I have MC cartridges as well, but i’m sure that for your Pioneer you’d better buy MM cartridge of the highest caliber! It will kill the LOMC! Forget about Koetsu and other low compliance MC cartridges, it’s a waste of money, you don’t even have the right heavy tonearm to use them. P.S. I really like the design of the Pioneer PL-70 mkII turntable along with their exclussive p-3. Sadly new turntables of today does not looks so good, something wrong with the designers. |
Maybe I missed it, but did the Ortofon Winfeld Ti get mentioned? That is the one I would spend my $5K on without a second thought. In fact it is the one I will spend my $5K on when my current Per Winfeld is up for renewal. I love the sound of this cartridge. In fact I prefer it over any other I have heard including the vaunted Atlas. |
The ability of the arm to track the cartridge correctly is far more important than what cartridge! So the answer to your question will be the cartridge that works best in your arm. The thing that would worry me about an inexpensive arm is the bearings. If there is any slop in them the arm simply will not be able to do its job. Quite often the reason there is slop is that the bearings are damaged, if they use points. If they don't (using ball bearings), they might have a lot of sticktion... For this an other reasons there is a good argument for going with something other than the stock arm. I don't remember all the Pioneer tables, although I've working on many, but what I do recall is that none of them were offered without an arm. So that might be the tricky bit... |
I've been lucky buying most of my used cartridges, but yes it does involve some luck. I've bought a couple of used Koetsu stones that sounded just like a new one (now that I've had a new one to compare, and Koetsu rebuilds too) and have lasted a long time. I'm long done buying used cartridges, but a bit of a gamble helped get me into Koetsu at I time I would't have otherwise ($3K vs. $9K new). You just need to "luck" out on a seller who cleans their stylus frequently, plays clean vinyl, runs proper alignment & VTF, avoids traumatic stylus incidents, reports hours honestly, doesn't hide issues like a skewed cantilever, low-rider, channel imbalance, etc :P The high-rollers that run a rotation of multiple high-end cartridges are good candidates. And unfortunately the audiogon market isn't what it once was for carts on offer (I rarely see Koetsu stones that look any good for a reasonable price). But like others said -- at this point look at your table/arm first, and don't forget phono stage either! |
If you are looking for somewhere to improve it is your turntable and/or tonearm. Just because your Pioneer sounds as good as your VPI doesn't mean that either of them are letting you get the best from your cartridge. Try using a great tonearm like Graham, Basis, EMT, etc and you will see what I mean. Good luck and have fun |
Thanks to all of you for your responses. I will consider your recommendations. One thing I agree with-my $$ is better spent on a new cart, rather than a used one. Interestingly enough-I had no offers to buy anyone's used cart. :) As I said, my sound is good, maybe even great. Just looking for somewhere to improve. I'm satisfied with all of my main components. Thought I might try a new cartridge, Not that the cart isn't a main component. I think it's one of the most important ones. Garbage in-garbage out. Steve |
I should also have noted that in the real world of physical measurements, speed is always an average. So speed can be spot in when measured over a few seconds, but nevertheless have huge variation when the average is taken over a few milliseconds. The ear hears clearly to 20KHz, so a 50 microsecond average is clearly audible, let alone the problems with beats, which push the threshold further yet. This is the old statistical problem of measuring with one number, the mean. It says nothing about the standard deviation or higher moments. |
Well handyman, you say the speed is spot on because the TT is direct drive. I don’t think so. TT generate lots of noise, which means vibration, and speed variation. It is only a question of the spectrum and amplitude of noise. For example, there is an inherent noise from the motor: cogging. Its frequency is some multiple of 1.8 seconds / number of poles. Then there is bearing noise, whose frequency is some fraction of 1.8 seconds. Then there is noise from the power supply, at idiosyncratic frequencies. All of this noise is attenuated by the moment of inertia (rotational "mass") of the platter. Noise is nevertheless there, and it presents as artificial brightness, sibilance, high frequency edge. Its reduction is one of the main goals of high end. If you don’t agree with my analysis, fine. But this is wholly objective: can your tonearm support fine azimuth adjustment, to a few minutes of arc? If not, your Urushi deserves better. |
To itsjustme. I know most of u think I've lost my mind, my saying I can't hear the difference between my two TT. When first mounting my Urishi, I did find I had to increase the tone arms mass to make the cart come alive. I thought I had bought a piece of junk. However, once the mass was increased, at the suggestion of Koetsu, everything was great. The Pioneer is direct drive, which means the speed is spot on. The plinth also is quiet-maybe more than the VPI. I'm enjoying great reproduction from both. I love dropping the tone arm and hearing that imaging that only vinyl can give. U know-the sound of the stylus leading into the song? It comes at u from both sides and u anticipate that truly wonderful sound you're about to hear. Guess I'm just looking for a change. What's better than two of the best? In case you're suspecting my set up is skewed, it isn't. And I've experimented with different base supports. I worked for months getting a base support than was almost totally immune to acoustic feedback and vibrations. I can now play records that have heavy bass and high volume levels, with no negative repercussions. I'll ask again-did anyone else miss the forum email Friday? I've contacted Audiogon and they're going to try to resend it Monday. If you're willing, pls try forwarding the email to me at steve.hege@att. net. Hope they let this go through. If not, I'll post again without my contact info. 👌 |
I'll weigh in with a few terse comments: 1. Setup is the weak link in the vast majority of turntables/Tonearms/cart. 2. As used cartridge is an unknown, and at best has only a portion of its life left - not just the tip, the suspension 3. I have not had that Pioneer, bu if its up to the challenge that you must pose with a $5k cart, its a bloody miracle. See setup above. 4. Note that TTs are primarily about reducing motor noise and speed variation; tonearms however are more than good/bad - the mass-to-cartridge compliance matching becomes critical - just liek springs and dampers on a race car. |