Looking for really fine cables at really low price

Thanks Grannyring.

Jet, look at the barrel that fits over the cable on the Switchcraft connector. The far end, end opposite the RCA, this will show you how wide you can go on the shield. You would never slide this barrel over 1/2 inch braiding. It was hard for me to slide, but I got it done even with a layer of heat shrink over the braid. I was an effort!

You could skip the barrels and just use a nice and thick heavy duty glue lined heat shrink for a collar. I did that on my digital cable as they were made with two runs per pole and the barrel would not fit over it. Once the glue sets and dries you have a very strong and safe cable! No,I won't mod these ever again after this.

Volleyguy1,

I have liked this stuff from the start and I have made cables from the 16, 14 and 10 awg WE wire. I have sort of stocked up and still have some of each gauge here for future projects.

In my system, all the sizes retain the same sonic characteristics, as I would expect since they are all made from the same tinned 30awg strands with thermoplastic dielectric and a cloth covering.

I like a star-quad configuration for speaker cables so I have a bi-wired set with 4@14awg to the LF and 4@16awg to the MF/HF. These sound very good. On my Class D amp, I am currently running a twisted pair of the 10 awg directly from the amp board, with no binding posts. These also sound very good.

Grannyring and Jetrexpro, I have had good luck ordering tinned copper braid shield and other common parts from McMaster-Carr. BTW, did you notice Take Five Audio is selling Cryo'ed Belden 8402?

Thanks Gannyring and Mitch2. I just ordered 1/4 braided shield.

Mitch2, yes I saw those Cryo 8402's and I want to buy some, but......oh my!

Thanks Mitch

That is kind of what I expected.

When you bulked up on amount of strands did you notice a difference? Particularly bass?

Belden IC assembly help request. I recently saw some photos online of how the Belden 8402 is soldered to the RCA plugs but I cannot find them now that I'm ready to assemble mine. Can anyone kindly help? I recall that the shield was twisted but don't remember the place on the RCA to which it was soldered. Also, does it matter which wire goes to the center and which to the outside?
Thanks very much- I'm a relative newbie at this sort of thing.

Ps, The center pin on the RCA is Positive (hot). The longer outside shaft is Negative (Ground). Your shield and negative wires can both be soldered to that longer shaft. Positive goes to the center pin. I don't have my Belden IC's in front of me so I don't know the color coding, but Red is usually the positive (hot) wire. Jet

Jet: Thanks very much for your helpful response. I recall that the shielding should be twisted on the ends to make it thin- similar to the other wires- so it can be readily soldered. I will need to be careful and patient when stripping the ends of the Belden to allow enough length for the shield.

Best wishes,
Ps

Ps,

You may be recalling a comment I made on Jeff Day's blog with tips on assembling the Belden cables. See my comment #7 at the link below. It's dated April 18, 2015. Hard to believe it's been that long.

http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=7325#comments

In re-reading those older posts on Jeff's blog, I noticed that the RCA plugs recommended by Mr. Yazaki-san were actually Canare F-10 plugs. The Switchcraft plugs that came with Jeff's cables were recommended by Jonathan Halpern, not by Yazaki-san. See post #10 at the link.

http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=7325#comments

Salectric:
Yes, THAT is where I read the comment! Thanks.
Earlier today I found a number of photos online showing how to position and solder shielding to RCA plugs. I will report back once I've got my Belden IC's assembled and installed in my system.

Best wishes,
Ps

After listening to the Belden 8402 for over a week, and then putting my former cables back in the system, the comparison unfortunately was not even close. My other cables have similar warmth and tonal density but much better extension, definition and smoothness throughout the entire frequency range. The Beldens are midrange-centric and, in comparison, sound somewhat veiled, with a rough top end, less definition in the bass, and less smoothness overall.

The comparison included two sets of ICs, one from my DAC to preamp and the other from preamp to power amp(s). My other cables are made with multiple strands of woven, small diameter (28awg), high quality copper (22awg aggregate per leg) in cotton and use high quality Furutech FP-601/602 connectors. I tried both sets with two different power amps, an Ncore NC1200 Class D amp and a high quality McCormack/SMc Signature Class A/B amp. I heard the same result with both amps, with the Belden cables sounding particularly bad with the Class D Ncore amps, which are a bit dark sounding to begin with.

The Belden construction included two sets of balanced cables using moderately high quality Vampire XLR connectors, and the braid shield connected to ground at both ends. The Belden cables were conditioned for about two days on an Audiodharma Cable Cooker, played for hours in my system with the Ayre frequency sweep burn-in track on repeat, and then played with music for over a week. They should have been burned in enough to show their characteristic sound.

When I make balanced IC cables, I typically only connect the shield at the source end but I space it away from the conductors and spiral a separate wire outside the shield connected to ground at both ends. I believe that is a superior construction method and I suppose I could have tried a separate ground wire outside the Belden jacket with the shield connected only at the source end, but I didn't.

I know some of you guys really like the Belden 8402 and will disagree with what I hear, so maybe the difference is in the balanced construction or in my system using high powered amp(s) with moderate efficiency speakers, compared to the lower powered amps and higher efficiency speakers many of you have. Maybe I am just fortunate to have really good ICs for comparison. I cannot explain, but what I have described is what I hear.

Mitch2 that's what makes this thread so intersting is all the differing listening impressions.

Salectric thanks for the update. I just ordered four Canare F10 RCAs. :)))

Thanks Jetrexpro, it was tough to report that since so many here like the Belden 8402 wire. I will burn them in a bit more on the cooker and try them again once more to make sure of what I am hearing.

In the meantime, I still like the WE speaker cables in all three gauges I have here, 16, 14 and 10 awg. Maybe I should make some ICs from the extra 16awg I have. I think I would try two wires per leg wrapped around a core with a shield connected only at the source end and a separate ground wire spiraled outside the shield. Unfortunately, because I am so happy with the ICs I have, making WE16 ICs is pretty far down on my project list.

Mitch

Not to worry on what you hear.

I have not heard Belden IC.

I am trying the WE wire in two systems. Oddly to me it sounds as you describe the Belden IC's?

In my main system all Duelund parts and Duelund wire the WE is clear, ragged and my guess is high resonance part with a midrange centric sound.

The upside to the WE wire if you midrange is not quite right this wire brings life to a system.

I hope I can use it for the office system?

Hours are piling on and the gap is closing with the Duelund 2.0.

WE is an interesting product.

Rob,
Have you formed any listening impressions with your modified Dynamo amplifier as of yet? How much of a difference have you heard with the Arizona capacitors?
Charles,

Has anyone compared the WE 16 ga wire with the Belden 9497 wire as speaker cable? Apparently the Belden is used by Shindo as internal speaker wire. Like Western Electric wire it has a cult following in Japan. The Belden is a tightly twisted 16 ga stranded (19x29) tinned copper conductors with PVC insulation. Curious as there are similarities regarding wire gauge, stranded tinned copper, etc. with the difference being the insulation and twist construction.

Rbrowne,

I'm also interested in WE16GA vs Belden 9497.

Dr. John at CheapTubeAudio has some short articles about the Belden speaker wire:

http://cheaptubeaudio.blogspot.com/2009/08/review-belden-9497.html
http://cheaptubeaudio.blogspot.com/2012/02/pic-from-second-japanese-article.html
http://cheaptubeaudio.blogspot.com/2014/04/l-497mkii-r-9497-click-pic-to-enlarge.html

I gotta agree with Steakster, I like the WE speaker cables but I am not thrilled with the Belden 8402 ICs so will be trying to sell mine. I found the Belden ICs to be a bit raggedy in the upper frequencies and dark/dull overall.

The WE speaker cables are a different story. I am currently running two pairs of 10awg WE speaker cables (1M long) directly from the amplifier board of each of my Acoustic Imagery Atsah monoblocks (so, no binding posts at the amp end) and they sound outstanding. There is clarity overall, smooth highs, and a perfect balance of depth, drive, fullness and control in the bass. The wire has excellent tonal qualities and the midrange has a nice touch of projection and warmth. There don't seem to be any issues that detract from the musicality of these cables but, if pressed, I would say the high frequencies are slightly less excellent than the remaining aspects of the WE wire...and that's the worst I can say. Overall, they come closer to my ideal than anything I have tried.

After trying the 16, 14 and 10 gauge WE wires, it is my opinion they are cut from the same sonic cloth, as I would expect since they are made from the very same 30awg tinned copper strands encased in thermoplastic then covered with cloth. The only difference is the number of strands used to make the various gauge wires. I suspect the 16awg is plenty big when used with low-powered tube amplifiers while my 400 wpc SS amps really benefit from 2-runs of 10awg wire (7 awg aggregate per amp). I am glad to have stocked up on this wire so I can try some future projects.

Built my second pair of WE16ga interconnects tonight with Canare F10 RCA plugs. The braided shield I ordered has not come in yet so these are burning unshielded for now. My first set naked WE ICs have well over 400 hours and I am still liking how open and free they sound. They are brightly lit so it will be very interesting to install the shield and see what changes it brings. Regards-Jet

Waiting on your comparison Jet. I like the WE IC's and the Belden is now back up. I use a nude set with a shielded set also. Perfect combo!

The Belden ICs have been turfed here as well..just too closed in and really rough up top.

I've gone back to Jeff Day's DIY ICs made from Cardas 33Ga Shielded Tonearm wire and the synergy with the WE speaker wire is outstanding.

I did use WBT NextGen plugs instead of the Switchcraft ones Jeff went with though.

Jeff's Cardas ICs can be found here:

http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=1490

Salectric - Looking forward to your findings re: the V-Twist/Switchcraft 3502AAU RCA's and the 8402/WBT 0102 Ag RCA's.

Leggoslave, The Cardas 33Ga IC's look very interesting. Thanks for posting. A project for later on this year when the weather gets cooooold here in NYC.

Grannyring I'll update once the braided shield arrives - Jet

Maxima95, the V-Twist only has 60 hours so it's too early to draw conclusions, but so far I like it. A lot! I will report back in another week or two.

Salectric - Thank you for the information.

Jetrexpro
Leggoslave, The Cardas 33Ga IC's look very interesting. Thanks for posting. A project for later on this year when the weather gets cooooold here in NYC.

Jet, you're welcome. Yeah the 'Dark Matter' Cardas ICs are a worthwhile project especially considering their compatibility with the WE Speaker wire.

They've got an open, warm sound with a slightly recessed mid-range and nice extension both ends.

With the Dark Matter Cardas ICs, is the shield in each individual cable jacket not connected to anything at either end?

09-24-15: Mitch2
With the Dark Matter Cardas ICs, is the shield in each individual cable jacket not connected to anything at either end?

I've shielded them source end Mitch. I haven't tried them unshielded.

They've also been left loose,ie.untwisted.

An update on Western Electric 22Ga solid core interconnects. After 300-400hrs I ended up not liking them. They sound monochromatic. They lack texture and color. I built them with Switchcraft RCA plugs and two runs each for the positive and negative poles. Regards jet

Salectric - You can't say that I'm not persistent. I am looking forward to your findings on the V-Twist/Switchcraft 3502AAU RCA's and the 8402/WBT 0102 Ag RCA's (or whatever combination you care to post on).

Maxima, I haven't forgotten! I was away for a while so the V-Twist cables are still a way from being fully broken in. I now have a little over 250 hours on them but Chris VH says they need 400 to 500 hours before settling down. Apparently this is due to the Teflon spacer tubes in the cable. I now have them running 24/7 and I plan to continue this until they are at least over 400.

For now I will say they certainly have a lot of potential. They have excellent speed, detail and soundstaging. I had some quibbles about the midrange but I am optimistic that will fall in line especially in light of how things have improved over the lsst 100 hours or so.

I am still using the Switchcraft RCA plugs so I can do a fair apples-to-apples comparison to my Beldens. Assuming that comparison works out in favor of the V-Twist (which I am pretty sure will be the case), I will then try the WBT 0102 copper plugs recommended by Chris VH.

I will report back in another 10 days or so. I promise!

Thanks for responding. Better to realize their full potential.

Grannyring, Jetrexpro, all
I noticed on the Jeff Day Blog and elsewhere that a bunch of fellas are building Power Cables out of the Western Electric WE16ga. It seems like most are having good success. It appears that Day will be installing the WE16ga PC on his McIntosh MC30s.

Have any of you done this? Results? Best, Rob

Not yet, but I suspect TWL may be using the WE10 ga in their Seven Plus and 10 Plus — American Series power cables. They advertise 525 conductors in the Seven Plus and 315 conductors in the Ten Plus. If they are using WE10ga wire, that has about 104-105 conductors per wire (30ga per conductor like the other gauges of WE wire), so one wire each for neutral and hot, plus one for ground, would be three wires with 105 conductors each or 315 conductors. Likewise, if they are using four runs of the 10ga in a star-quad configuration for the Seven Plus, and one additional run of 10ga for ground, that would be 5 wires at 105 conductors per wire or 525 conductors. Coincidence?

Mojo Audio had good success using some type of WE wire for PCs early on but I believe they ran out of the WE stuff and are using different wire now.

I quit using the WE wire for speaker cable so I purchased several Furutech copper plugs/iecs and plan to start by making a pair of unshielded star-quad 10ga (7ga per pole) PCs for my monoblocks. If that goes well, I will try using the 14 or 16 ga wire I have here with a shield for front end gear. I have a bunch of the wire here that I bought before deciding to use other speaker cables so I need to do something with it.

Thanks Mitch2,
I suspected TWL was using WE. Best, Rob

This is a progress report on the V-Twist wire. The V-Twist is a new DIY interconnect cable designed and distributed by Chris VenHaus of VH Audio. It is a twin lead cable where each conductor is a high purity 24 gauge solid copper wire with Teflon insulation. There is no shielding. A full description is at the link below. The cable presently sells for $15 per foot or $30 per foot for a stereo pair.

http://www.vhaudio.com/v-twist-cu24.html

The V-Twist and Belden 8402 share the same basic cable geometry in that they are both twin lead designs, but whereas the Belden uses old school materials the V-Twist is modern all the way. One consequence of this is an extremely long break in time. Chris says 400 to 600 hours is required---the cable reaches about 90% of its potential in 400 hours and the remaining finishing touches fall into place during the next couple hundred.

I initially wired the V-Twist with Switchcraft 3502AAU RCA plugs so I could do a fair comparison with my Belden 8402 cables that use the same plugs. Chris recommends WBT 0102 Cu plugs for best performance.

My V-Twist cables now have 440 hours so they are over the 90% mark. I will spare you the details of how the sound changed during this time. Suffice it to say the sound changes rather significantly so hold off on making any judgments until they have at least the 400 minimum.

I compared my 1M V-Twist cables to several other interconnects as the link between my phono preamp and linestage. The other cables on hand for a direct comparison were: Belden with Switchcraft plugs, Belden with WBT 0102Ag plugs, Ocellia Silver Reference and Wireworld Eclipse II.

In a nutshell, the V-Twist wire has excellent inner detail, a smooth extended tonal balance, excellent dynamics, and a neutral perspective in terms of soundstaging. The specific qualities are affected quite a bit by the RCA plugs used. For example, the Switchcraft 3502AAU plugs have an inherently warm tonal balance, slightly rolled off treble, soft leading edges on transients, pretty good detail, and a somewhat upfront perspective. With the Switchcraft plugs, that is how the V-Twist sounds. Unfortunately the softness annoys me so I moved the WBT 0102Ag plugs from one pair of my Belden cables to the V-Twist. This made for some very interesting changes. Basically the V-Twist with silver WBTs is fast, clean and detailed, with full extension in the treble, and the softness is gone, but the V-Twist now sounds somewhat lightweight; the bass is not as weighty as it was with the Switchcrafts and there is a hint of "plastic" colorations in the midrange especially. Perhaps I need to use the copper WBT plugs as Chris recommends, or perhaps both the V-Twist and WBT plugs need more hours. (The WBTs have about 150 hours on them.) I plan to run the V-Twist/WBTs for another week or so with signal 24/7 and see how it sounds then. If it still has some issues, I will consider getting a set of copper WBTs.

From what I have heard so far, the V-Twist clearly has much potential. To my ears it is in a very different league than the Belden 8402.

Salectric
Terrific report. I'll be staying with the Belden. In my set-up fabulous top to bottom and not soft. I'm going to go ahead and make the WE16ga power cords. I'm going to experiment a little, terminate with Furutech on one pair, Marinco on another pair. Then I'm going to do a pair with WE10ga. Maybe WE14ga as well. Best, Rob

I am using WE10 gauge stranded cable now for speaker cable. I like it a tad more than the WE16. I use the WE16 for ICs, but for best results they should be shielded. I liked the shielded WE16 quite a bit more than the Belden. The Belden is very good in my system however.

Grannyring can you describe the difference from WE16 and WE10?

Volley, very slight difference in my rig. Not a big difference. Just a tad more scale and increased stage size. Tad more fullness in the bass. That's really it.

My rig is very resolving and a little more weight or bass body was good for my system.

I am waiting to receive 14 gage WE cable, and I read that cable burn-in really changes sound for the better. I do not have any cable cooker, but was thinking of running 12v DC through the cable for as long as it needs (I am thinking of cutting an older laptop battery charger and connecting this wire(s) in between and let it run with some 12v load on the other end). Is that any different than $1,000 cable cooker? Thanks.

Signature8, the short answer to your question is, yes it is.

If you want to learn more,
1.go to the audioexcellenceaz website or Google search under "audiodharma Cable Cooker"
2. go to Audio Asylum and search for "Cable Cooker" then add the additional parameters,
a. Authored by: alan m. kafton
b. from Forum: All Forums

Signature8. I say break them in on music. Even better, your favorite music! I just have a cheapo second system in my work room that I use to run in cables. $20 set of speakers from Goodwill, $25 Sony CD player, and an old receiver!

Anyone interested in a group buy from Alan (Audiodharma Cable Cooker)?

And has anyone tried the single core WE 16ga? 

+1 curious about the journey of the V-Twist. Chris is usually right. 

I might be interested in the cable cooker. Is there another thread for that?

I bought another set of Canare F10 rca plugs and am going to put them on my Belden cable and see how they sound