@rauliruegas I have no idea what your saying...my mind went blank half way through 😳 Anyway, the Cornwall’s look stunning in person...like better than unwrapping Wilson Watt/Puppy 8’s or anything else I’ve had (a lot)! As I said, the Bozak’s I grew up with were soooo much better than anything I’ve spent silly money on....and they were purchased from a department store in 1963. Yeah....audio has taken a wrong turn. Good sound was had decades ago and the high end has been collectively driving the audiophile community off of the cliff!
Looking for my Final Pair!!
Been through the high end maelstrom for over 30 years and although I have enjoyed the ride, I desperately want to find speakers that exude dynamics, tone and presence. I want to be transported to the Village Vanguard where The John Coltrane Quartet are performing any night I desire. I want to feel the timbre of his sax 🎷. When I close my eyes I want to be enveloped by the atmosphere of the space and awash with the impact and emotion being expressed by the musicians. I don’t want to hear what the engineers hear after they mix a recording...I want to be in the studio when the tracks are being laid down! So far, Tannoy Heritage Arden have come to my attention, Klipsch Cornwall IV’s, JBL S4700’s or perhaps Spatial Audio X3’s? Help
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Dear @roxy54 : "
the measurements of those speakers are far from being without fault, but that's ok, because you like the way they sound, right? And THAT is the whole point. " You are rigth because there is no perfect speaker but only can hope to approach that " perfect " but we have to remember the room intrinsecal realtionship with any speaker quality level performance. Now my " new " and vintage ADS L2030 is not only a normal speaker and the whole point is not precisely: " you like the way it sound ", there are several issues behind it and we have to understand those issues. Look, if you make the things rigth that " like " with any audio item will comes per sé. In the past Telarc asked to ADS to design and build a speakers to monitor its recording LPs and ADS made it a dedicated truly full range speakers that were mated with Threshold electronics. The success of this design was for Telarc and ADS so outstanding than ADS decided to design a new monitors and then born the L2030 and L1530 that were used for Telarc in all its recording LPs. These speakers are true monitors and what this word means. Here you can read and look about: http://sportsbil.com/ads/l-2030-brochure.pdf @ditusa posted to Dave: " they sound "great" that, is your measurement. " that statement seems rigth but in reality it's not. I'm not talking of what we like but what is rigth that's different approach. Next statement came from Roxy: "" measurements that YOU consider to be important are in practice NOT important. "" who told you? that in the past almost no body cares about THD/IMD speaker distortions does not means today no body cares yet. Both measures of that kind of speaker distortions are way important and manufacturers know it but the levels are so high that they decided not to disclose it. At the end they take advantage of that low knowledge audiophile level with that " like " as the " measurements ". Next link try to explain something about and proves the necessity/urgency to put at minimum the IMD/THD levels specially at speakers bass range that's the name of the audiophile game: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/wilson-alexx-v/post?postid=2126914#2126914 http://www.laassoluta.com/intro.htm https://legacyaudio.com/images/uploads/reviews/Legacy_Aeris_Axpona_2014_Positive_Feedback_Robert_You... https://www.sonusfaber.com/en/products/aida/ this Aida passive speaker design is a great one because its bass range crossover are at 55hz and 150hz. Please any one of you ask the designer why he choosed those crossover points. Just do it if you want to learn and grow up about. In that thread I gave my advise to the OP gentleman as an alternative to those Wilson Alexx V: https://www.kerracoustic.com/k300 with this Xover: https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/electronic-crossovers/fm-330-series/ these could be the subs: https://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/mini-series/minisub/?doing_wp_cron=1615566000.556648... We audiophiles are accustomed to like several wrong " things " and it's not our culprit but culprit coming from the teach ( bad and corrupted teaching. ) of the AHEE where all we belongs. One way or the other almost all of you are " against " my posts about but please let me know which Cornwall IV owner has its set up using subwoofers not as bass range reinforcement but crossing at 80hz-90hz where the main speakers are handled from there and up? If no one of you, even with other kind of speakers , have not that first hand experiences how could have a credible opinion. From where can comes that " certainty " that you think you have? Try to be objective about the whole issue because at the end is only COMMON SENSE and nothing more. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@dave_b, ’’Did I mention my system needs to kick arse...like “When the Levee Breaks” at 110db kinda arse!’’ This, is what you want/need. Little two way monitors. lol http://www.thevintageknob.org/jbl-4435.html... https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/jbl-4435-finally-in-the-house.584523/ Also, the JBL 4435 monitor adds a second woofer below 100 Hz to address the IMD and THD that @rauliruegas is talking about. And so does the JBL Everest II. See the JBL tech manual in the link below. btw, Also, see, in the last page of the manual that sensitivity and efficiency is two different specifications. http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1984-4430-35.htm I think you will like your new Cornwall IV’s speakers. No speakers are without fault. Mike |
rauliruegas, All that is proven by all of your measurement hocus pocus is that in many cases, like this one, measurements that YOU consider to be important are in practice NOT important. It looks like you’re measuring the wrong things in this case. I looked at your posted system, and I'm certain that the measurements of those speakers are far from being without fault, but that's ok, because you like the way they sound, right? And THAT is the whole point. Period. |
Dear @ozzy62 : Again, that you like it it does not means is rigth because facts is that’s wrong about those characteristics I posted. I see that you own two subs and according what you posted you are using those subs only as bass reinforcement and not to lower those high Cornwall kind of distortions. Facts are facts and you can’t change it and I’m talking of those facts/objective and you are talking of subjectivity and when any one post in a dialogue something subjective that dialogue is just finished because no one can refute a subjective opinion. Obviously for you my opinion is: folly unfortunatelly you can’t prove it and I can prove the other way around. As a fact I already did it. R. |
That several audiophiles like the Cornwall says that they like those high distortion levels, that's all. I've had speakers from Von Schweikert, Magnepan, Piega, Wilson Audio, Montana, Reference 3a, just to name a (VERY) few. All have been special in their own way. So I guess I just woke up one morning and decided I crave the type of high distortion levels that only a Cornwall can produce. Do you see the folly of your statement? |
Dear @roxy54 : ""
What the heck are you talking about? "" The IMD and THD Cornwall developed distortions mainly belongs to that woofer that crossover 700hz what means that even intrudes at around 800hz. Those IMD/THD distortions are incremented in any passive speaker where the woofer crossover is to high as in that speaker because at the same time that the woofer is handling extremely critical frequencies that goes between the 100hz-800hz where performs several instruments including voice that woofer has high excursion to reproduce frequencies as low as 30hz those high movements in the woofer always interfere with the other frequency es range adding high InterModulationDistortions and at the same the TotalHarmonicDistortions goes higher. That several audiophiles like the Cornwall says that they like those high distortion levels, that's all. Please read again or read it for first time the link in my last post to Dave that explains very easy why in a passive speakers we need subs and the Cornwall really " cry " for subs, its woofer crossover is really high. Even if you like it you can't change those facts and that's what I'm talking about. R. |
We were speaking primarily to a live acoustic concert...Symphony! But for amplified concerts there is still a strong dynamic crispness or aliveness that we all can identify instantly! I speak to that energy and vitality in music...this is what often gets lost or intentionally tamped down in some designs. |
As far as a live concert in a large hall. I think it could be argued that the live concert is not actually "live" ..... huh. Guitars, drums, vocals, keyboards, all hooked up to mics and speakers. Even in a live concert you are listening to 100% speakers in a lot of cases. 100% speakers playing in a massive room. If you could record from each mic separately and then sync and playback in that same venue, would it sound essentially the same? (of course in real life the ambient sounds of the reflected hall would also be in the recording but if you could eliminate that, would it sound the same. I think for the most part, yes |
I, for one, love my Cornwall IVs. Most people in this thread that say how disappointed you will be have never heard them. It is likely they heard a klipsch speaker 30 years ago on a cheap receiver, poorly set up and established an “informed” opinion that they carry around to this day. Please discount these “opinions” with extreme impunity. I look forward to hearing your personal account of how these speakers perform for you. Oz |
@dave_b, All the best with your new Cornwall IV's speakers. Check the link below. The Boston Audiophile. Mike https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDMBQl5jfOs |
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@rauliruegas I’ve frequented many venues, such as the BSO(Gold Standard) and PSO, but the exact placement of instruments and to the larger extent, 3D soundstaging is an artifact of your mind. It doesn’t exist! If you have a visual to go along with the music, then your brain will make the connection. Now if you are sitting extremely close to a smal ensemble, then yes...placement is discernable. I love soundstaging myself, but it shouldn’t be laser etched to the degree that it predominantly attracts attention away from the tone, dynamics and atmosphere. |
Dear @dave_b : "" Listen to a live concert, any concert, with your eyes closed. You cannot pick out the exact placement of any instrument. "" I respect your statement by disagree totally with. Not now by the pandemic but normally I attended each single week at least one time to live event to enjoy live MUSIC and normally I choosed a seat at around the center of the hall and not far away from the scenario from the orchestra and with open eyes or closed eyes I can tell you always where the instruments/source are. If you can’t do it that’s only unique for you and nto for every one, at least not to me. """ What you can hear, is the venue, the presence and the dynamics of the instruments, along with their respective tone colors as heard in that particular space. Hi Fi is mostly a joke! """ I almost agree with these statements, yes what we listen in a live MUSIC event is the presence/power/transients and fast harmonics developed and dynamics. obviously with those characteristics comes the natural " color " MUSIC has and yes HI FI is a with out doubt a joke a big joke against live MUSIC. But that " joke " is not because Hi Fi per sé but because one main critical difference between live MUSIC and what we listen at our room/system and that difference is that in live MUSIC even between the MUSIC source and you exist almost only AIR and nothing else and in Hi Fi exist 100+ signal degradation steps before the sound be reproduced through the speakers. But that reality does not means we don’t have to take some kind of care how to improve what we are listened trhough that room/syste: "" We need to stop supporting the overpriced analytical instruments of disappointment. Music should be fun and enjoyable, emotional and deeply moving...it should not be analyzed. """ I agree that MUSIC shouild be and always is emotional and deeply moving and if we take care over our system we can help to that " emotional and deeply moving " MUSIC main characteristics at our place. If we are true MUSIC lovers we can enjoy it in almost any room/system that’s the intrinsical " power " of MUSIC. You want to change your speakers and any of the speaker advises by other gentlemans could works to enjoy MUSIC but exist some characteristics that could impedes that those speakers you buy will be your last pair, a good example are those touted here Cornwalls that no matters what has a weak characteristic in its design that promotes high IMD and THD distortion levels and that weak characteristic is that the woofer crossover 700hz. Even if you like it when you have testing in your home your 802D3 are better if you do what was my advise in what I posted. All is up to you and your understanding in that critical issue. Live MUSIC almost has not distortions and between other things what makes the Hi Fi a true joke are all those developed distortions added from the recording process and followed by the whole play process in our room/system. I think that as any thing exist different enjoyment levels and in my case I want it the top one. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058 The issue is not how the Cornwall performs ( I like the immediacy of horns sound reproduction but as any speaker drivvers not perfect. Latest horn speakers I listened were the Avantgarde Duo and Acapella and in the past the Klipshorn. ) or like it but the added Cornwall heavy distortions that develops ( other issue is that that woofer goes down only at 34hz that means that can performs in good condition at no lower than 40hz, not enough for MUSIC reproduction. ). Yes, you can live with or with the distortions developed for other speakers because as a fact all speakers develops distortion levels. Common sense is truly important for music lovers/audiophiles. R. |
I can have 60 days to try the Cornwall IV’s...that’s key! I will no longer buy speakers without an in home trial or a return option. High end audio has gone down the path of dissection and analysis... which inevitably causes paralysis. Listen to a live concert, any concert, with your eyes closed. You cannot pick out the exact placement of any instrument. In fact, soundstaging is mostly non existent as well. What you can hear, is the venue, the presence and the dynamics of the instruments, along with their respective tone colors as heard in that particular space. Hi Fi is mostly a joke! We need to stop supporting the overpriced analytical instruments of disappointment. Music should be fun and enjoyable, emotional and deeply moving...it should not be analyzed. Let the music wash over you and reach into your soul. That is what our goal should be and can be again, by supporting companies that allow music to engage our senses in a realistic manner....not in an analytical or sterile way. |
If you are of the type that can have set of cabinets made, I would suggest the audio nirvana super 15 alnico drivers. I have a par of those in a set of bass loaded ported cabinets and they sound awesome. I've owned b&w, altec, etc.... and these sound better than any that I have heard including wilson audio. Just an opinion, but its worth it to check out. |
This would be by end game choice. Haven't heard them in person but would certainly love to.... https://analogdomain.eu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=33Itemid=33 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKYbRtkH6gY https://www.facebook.com/MoizNoize/videos/analog-domain-argus-loudspeakers/10156541147754712/ |
Ok, so here is my suggestion and they are all good suggestions by the way but each suggestion comes without having heard most or any of the others including mine so here goes. I just sold my B and W 702 s2 speakers and as others have mentioned, B and W are very detailed speakers; they spoiled me, and I had a hard time giving them up, but one of my dream speakers came up at an insane price from a dealer and I could not resist. Four weeks ago I took delivery of the Legacy Focus XD. Price range is just over 10K to 14K depending on the version and finish. The XD Version includes a 750 watt amp tp power the woofers leaving the rest for a bi-amp configuration (that is what I did) or to run the entire speaker. With 2, 12 inch woofers down to 18hz, 2 midrange drivers and 2 ribbon tweeters......Now, repeat all of that for the second speaker. I mean when I first turned them on and listened to the maiden voyage recording it was like OMG, we were actually laughing; the difference between a really good speaker and moving up to the next level is quite dramatic. I suggest reading the "over the top" and I do mean "over the top" reviews of this speaker and company. One of the reviews did mention the magnepan speakers and talked about how the surface area of all these drivers in the legacy made the focus xd a very comparative speaker to that experience; which I thought to be very interesting. As to making you feel like you were in the room or hall..... I agree with the earlier comment on that...... nothing is going to TRULY give you that sensation but for the first time ever I was questioning that aspect a bit with these speakers and on one recording in particular, I was saying this exact thing; that I was in the hall. It took a pipe organ piece by e.power biggs to do it but holy crap, I am f’ing amazed. So there you have it. Is this my final forever speaker? Could be but the next step up in the legacy family is about 20K. Lets see what happens in about 5 years |
If you like Tannoy you can also check out Fyne, very similar. I've liked all models I've heard. Another fun brand is Boenicke. The W11 should be in your price range. Unless you upgrade to W11 SE or SE+. http://hifiknights.com/reviews/speakers/boenicke-audio-w11-se/ |
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I will try again. Pedestrian version of engineers' frequent choice... ATC SCM-100ASL | Speakers | Audiogon Disclaimer: I have never heard them and am just going after "I want to be in the studio when the tracks are being laid down!" assuming that company sound may trickle horizontally. |
