Hello all. Making a good two way system for a 20 x 40x 12 high room budget 12k to 16 k. Powered by a bryston 14b cubed amp. Have a surround system with Golden ear ref and surrounds powered by parasound a21 for mains and Carver cinema grand for surrounds. Like the GEs The speakers I'm looking for will be for music only lots of jazz (female vocalist a fav), classical, classic rock and roll (70's and up). I have heard good things about proac k6, Joseph audio, and a few others but am not within 4 hours of audition range. Real interested in people in the know about the proac or suggestions. Thanks in advance.
It is not a sales issue it should be noted as a concern with any small company that is run by a single designer that was the point, had nothing to do with the designer of Green Mountain audio.
There was no joke made about Merlin either, the fact that anyone with access to a good cabinet shop can build copies of these loudseakers, buying drivers is not the same thing as designing both the driverj and the entire loudspeaker from scratch.
For this reason the worlds top loudspeaker companies show a commitment to the capital expenditures to push driver technology which is the reason why Magico, Rockport, Focal, Kef, B&W, Paradigm, ATC, Harbeth ect are the companies which dominate an industry.
That is not to say any of the small independents dont make a good sounding product.
Again points of discussion.
Mofojo coating a cone is not the same thing as building a complete driver nor tweeking a design no matter how many years it took.
We had a client trade in a set of Vsm for a set of Vivids there was no comparison we dont mean to disrespect his memory but the facts are the facts.
Uhh no. Anyone couldn't build a Merlin. He had special coatings on the driver's and worked on the crossovers for 20 years to perfect. What you are saying is kinda disrespectful.
I hate to get off on a tangent to this thread, but I'm curios as what you don't like about your GE TRs for 2channel listening, how you have them placed in your room, and where is your 2CHL listening spot in the room? Is it just the audiophile quest for more? I have GE T1s in a HT/2chl system and was wondering about upgrading to TRs when I could get a larger room like yours.
Good question. I am happy with the golden ears but have to give too much information for you all to understand. I am 61 and my wife is 63. We are blessed (and cursed) with two adult children and two grand children living with us. The home theater has the two main a GE center xxl, a GE supersub xxl, and four Ge main 3's for surrounds. Mains powered by a parasound a21 and surrounds powered by a sunfire cinema grand. Anthem AVM 60 preamp. It does the job well and if it was just me I would be content. However cartoons and dr pimple popper seem to crowd out my and my wife's use. When I play music the cries and caterwauling ruin my bliss and defeat the purpose. Hence the need for an oasis for us to enjoy life. Wow TMI for sure. Now, purely selfish on my part but if this is to be my last sound system I want it to to be something I can grow old with. I am happy with the golden ears but did not know if I could do better. I choose bryston as my electronics because they also have a professional background, great warranty, and several a list or editors choice ratings from respected trades. I listen to jazz , blues, classic vinyl, some classical etc. Also good salesman. Now I'm interested in everything out there but was interested in the proac because many of the British producers and engineers master with them or so I'm told. So much of my music is British, cream, floyd, Clapton and female vocalist which are very midrange friendly. However I am listening to everybody's suggestions. I am from a small town with no shops which is why I look to you, my fellow hobbyist for opinions and info. I will audition as much as i can but i appreciate all your input.
As I suggested on the 1st page of this thread I recommend the Proac D48R. I have owned 4 pairs of Proac’s and have really enjoyed them. I recently sold my pair of D30R’s (little brother to the D48R) and bought a pair of YG Carmel 2’s. The D30R’s played deep and were nicely balanced. Proac’s are known for their midrange magic and with the ribbon tweeter, sound very natural and detailed. The D48R’s would be similar but would play much louder with deeper bass. I see TMR has a pair in black ash for $6792.00. I bought my YG’s through TMR around 6 months ago. They are great to deal with and offer a return policy. See below: from TMR’s website.
"Every product we offer carries a 14-day, satisfaction-guaranteed return policy unless stated otherwise in the product description.** Additionally, every pre-owned product purchased directly at www.tmraudio.com carries a 45-day warranty. During the 14-day return period, a return or exchange can be requested for any reason."
As you can see, after an in home demo if not completely satisfied you can return them.
Ron the Proac is most likely an excellent speaker but will be woefully inadequate for this size room.
In fact we think they make excellent loudspeakers, sound wise they are very good and they have wonderful cabinetry however for such a large room these are really not the right loudspeakers because:
Point one: the power handling is only 250 watts, the OP's amp is 600 watts
Point two: although the bass spec is 20hz no db down point means that realistic bass response is 24-28hz which is not really enough low bass for this size room,.
Point three: the speakers are 90db efficient which means greater heat on the voice coil compared to a much greater efficiency loudspeaker.
All of the above points mean that the speakers won't work well in that huge volume of air.
Ron if the room was smaller they would be an excellent choice.
Again what we have found for a big room this is what you need:
1: High efficiency 95 db 1w 1M or greater 2: High power handling 500-1000 watts 3: High SPL output 4: Rugged Drivers especially large bass drivers to handle the excursion required, this means larger 12-15 inch woofers with big voice coils
Tekton will do it Legacy will do it. Possibly the Salk Exotica 3 with self amplifiers woofers might do it.
Food for thought
One last point the OP likes the sound of the Golden Ears the Legacy sound is like a better version of the Golden Ears. Both speakers use Heil tweeters both have prodigious low end, both speakers are efficient with the Legacy's handling more power.
I thought the D48R's with maybe a couple of JL Audio subs would be great for your large room. The D48R's would be excellent for the music you listen to and if you could cross them over @ 60-80Hz, it would fill your room with quality sound and still be within your budget. I mentioned them because I saw a used pair and thought you could try them (in your room) and if you didn't like them you could return them. I'm sure the K6's would be better, but a new pair would be out of your price range.
I'm not a dealer, just a satisfied Proac user giving my unbiased 2 cents.
Again good luck and keep us updated on your search.
Ron we are not going to sell this gentleman anything but see our points as listed before we agree with you that they are good speakers, however, the sound of a ribbon tweeter with a Bryston amp in a live room might be a bit bright.
Subwoofer issues:
1: Not everyone wants two large subwoofer in the room 2: They can be tricky to integrate sonically 3: They may not look integrated visually with the main speakers 4: They may be difficult to wire with the main gear
Other issues:
1: 600 watt amplifier which may damage a 250 watt maximum power handling loudspeaker
2: 90 db efficient loudspeakers are not that efficient for such a large room even though he has lots of power, the voice coils may heat up excessively when trying to dissipate heat if the gentleman wants to turn it up or plays for a long time at a spirited volume,
Therefore, the greater the efficiency the less input power hence lower heat dissipation required for the same volume.
@audiotroy ,Just curious - have you heard the ProAc D48 in a setting similar to OP's room?
@paliden,I had sent you a PM about my dealer for ProAc. Talk to him about the ProAc D48R, K3 and K6.
Millipi we don’t have to the specs for the job are wrong.
This is not our first Rodeo remember the fact that we design Movie Theaters, as well as professional design experience for over 30 years, and the specs for loudspeakers, amplifiers, and room size are all part of the design methodology required for Home Theater.
Many Home Theaters are modeled on paper long before the room is built, acoustical panels go in and the calibration is done.
We have covered the points all before of why the Proac loudspeaker is not the right model for this very large room’s volume, in all of our posts, and by the way we could also supply a set of Proacs to this gentleman as we work with Proac’s US importer.
One glaring obvious point is the Bryston’s 600 watt power output with a speaker whose maximum power handling is 250 watts.
One large peak with the volume turned up a bit, and boom fried woofers.
As we have stated before the chance of us selling the OP is low, he may be half way across the country.
As per the Proacs they are excellent loudspeakers, they are well made, use supeb drivers and do many things really well, Proac is not known howerver, for their ability to play loud and fill up giant rooms.
It is totally possible that the Proac D48 might sound as good or even better than the Leagacy Focus we were recommening however Bill Dudleston designs speakers that can be used as a PA, there was a set of Focus used at one show actually as a PA loudspeaker.
Bill lDuddleston the lead designer of Legacy, ikes displacement, big woofers, 12-15 inch bass drivers, his speakers play loud, handle lots of power, and are electrically efficient, also many models have built in amplifier or passive woofers, add in a sweet sounding Heil tweeter and the option of electronic room control it adds up why we recommend these speakers for this application, they also remind us of the Golden Ear Trition References which we sell and this gentleman also likes.
Do we personally feel that the Legacy are the world's best speakers, that is a much harder question, personally if I won the lottery, a pair of Focal Grande Utopia EVO III or a set of the 400k Kharma references with the four Acuton Diamond midranges would be in the Living Room way faster than almost any loudspeaker.
Our recommendation are sound and any loudspeaker that fits the criteria we have listed several times in this thread would work.
We also mentioned D2 Girls JBLs would work well, a large set of Avante Gardes, a set of big Klipsch horns, a giant set of Willsons, Maxxs, a giant set of Focals would also be canidates.
Unless the OP has a preamp that can effectively roll off the bass frequencies to the main louspeakers and then integrate a set of subwoofers any similar loudspeaker with limited efficiency, smaller woofers, that can not handle gobs of power is not going to work.
We have repaired many loudspeakers that were damaged in this kind of enviornment, you must remember that a very large room has totally different requirements than a room that is 20 by 20 or 20 by 30, and the size of the ceiling makes a huge difference in room volume.
Dave a Bryston cubed amp with a Proac ribbon tweeter in a live room is not bright. I've had this exact set-up and it was fantastic. The new cubed amps have a smoother top end than the older SST2 models.
1 (2) JL Audio Fathom f112 subs @ 15"x18.5"x17.75" in size would completely disappear in a 20'x40'x12' room. 2 Using JL Audio's Digital Automatic Room Optimization EQ system makes for a seamless integration. The auto-EQ measures your room, attenuates the bass peaks and smooths out the bottom end. Stereo subs actually make for a smoother bass response. 3 Placing 2 small black subs in or near the corner of the front wall would visually disappear. 4 Bryston makes 2 Electronic crossover units. The 10B-STD and the 10B-SUB. Since the OP has a Bryston 17b3 preamp and a 14b3 amp, I'm sure would be an ideal match.
Other Issues:
1 Having a 600 watt amp doesn't necessarily mean you use all of the power to drive the speakers. A 600 watt amp has the ability to damage just about any loudspeaker. 2 Using two Proac D48R's crossed over @ say 80Hz into two JL subs would have no problem moving massive amounts of air in a large room.
I've heard the D48R's in a large room (with no sub) play very very loud.
As everyone knows this is just one of many ways the OP could go.
Actually having a really large room may be easier to achieve good sound. Small rooms tend to have bass problems that are difficult to control.
Thanks for your input and again good luck to the OP.
Check out a few ads for the Pioneer S-1ex’s . My friend has just sold his S-1ex’s and bought TAD CR -1’s fo r20g’s, and said close to 90% of the S-1ex’s
Sandy wouldn’t do it, to deal with a long discontinued loudspeaker with proprietary parts without the possiblity of having spares no matter how cheap they are is a dangerous gamble.
Not to mention that if you ever want to sell them finding a buyer again might not be so easy, then consider the limited efficiency, lack of deep bass, and limited power handling especially for this man’s large volume room, not going to be good.
Rbach this is why we post, because so many people don’t get that system matching is coupling the loudspeaker to the room and matching the loudspeaker to the the matching gear, sonic qualities, power handling, etc.
You think its all about making sales, as we stated the likley hood of selling this gentleman a set of speakers is low, however, we are hoping that the OP will make a good decision and get a great set of louspeakers that will work for his room, electronics and musical tastes.
Ron not everyone wants two large subwoofers and the price of the Proacs + 2 jl Audio Sub, and the JL Crossover will far exceed his budget, also we did agree with you on this point, howerver, the point about having 600 watts and not blowing a speaker we would not agree with, the livelyhood of playing loud hitting a peak and killing woofers even using a crossover may not protect the speakers as per a large room and the Bryston's that we would diagree with you on that one, everyone's idea of a large room is different and the other part of this equation is, total contigious volume if this large room is open to any other rooms, than the room goes from very large to titanic
When I was in high school, I had a job in a tobacco shop. One day, the owners asked me.. “what is the best cigar?”. I rattled off the names of some high end makes. Cohiba. Montecristo. he shook his head. After I had named about a dozen and he’s still shaking his head, i got annoyed. “OK. what IS the best cigar then???”
He smiled and said “The one you like...”
At first, I thought he was being a smartass, but he was trying to teach me something. We had people who would come in to buy $20 cigars and people who liked $2 cigars. In the end, the only thing that matters is that people found something they liked.
One of the things I despise about the audiophile community is their willingness to dismiss anything that is not esoteric or expensive AF as patently inferior. Many expensive hobbies do the same thing, but music is so subjective and sound is so personal...that it has to boil down to what makes you smile.
The joy of listening to and being moved by music is really the goal. The hardware is merely a means to an end. When the vehicle becomes more important than the destination, everything goes to hell.
My only advice to the OP is this. Experts are fine, but their ears won’t be listening to your system, you will. Trust your ears and try to find someone who is willing to float the idea that the “best” thing for you might be something different than the “best” thing for them.
Dtrandall, you are missing the point we believe in what you believe and we have the OP’s best interests at heart.
The issue is that the OP doesn’t have a standard sized audio room, he has a big volume of air to fill and that requires different thinking.
Your Cigar store analogy is a good one, but here the customer is saying I need a cigar I can smoke for 20 mins and the client is looking at a giant cigar which will burn for 1 hour, unless the customer wants to smoke for 20 mins and then smoke the rest later, which won’t taste very good, the large cigar isn’t the right selection.
The shop owner can do 1 of 2 things, either recommend a smaller equally tasty cigar or allow the customer to purchase the larger cigar and learn the hard way that what he wanted ultimately wasn’t the best choice for his requirements.
Mr. Randall, you totally miss the point, the reason why we post on threads like this is to assist people with the knowledge obtained over many years of doing this work as a profession.
As stated the likelyhood that the OP is even on the same part of the US or the World is rather remote, so we really don’t have anything financial to gain from this it is not a matter of "what is best for us" vs what is best for the OP."
We have seen too many people with blown speakers because the salesguy wanted to make a sale and didn’t look at what was right for the customer or the customer came to us and had us repair his speakers because he blew them out and the speakers were not purchased from us.
We have repaired Genesis 2.2 speakers and tweeters in a pair of Rockport Arrakis because the client liked to play very loud and had massive power and the issue with the Genesis is that the BG ribbon is now longer being made he has one spare and if he blows that one he has a giant set of boat anchors.
The OP has a unique set of circumstances and for that reason, it is unlikely that he can and will be able to just go to a store or even a show and hear a set of speakers that will meet all of those criteria.
If the OP had a room 1/3 or 1/2 the size it would be an easy task to hear many different products that would sound great.
Mr. Randall you really don’t understand what we are about at all.
With clarification from the OP as to wether subwoofers are a viable choice it is hard to go further here are the full questions:
Speaker Selection:
1: Does a set of large subwoofer work for you visually? 2: Can you get them to integrate do you have any experience or trepidation going with separate subwoofers? 3: Can you preamp handle subs? 4: Do you care that the subwoofers may not look the same as the main speakers? 5: Would you prefer a single large main speakers? 6: Do you have any constraints with the look of the main speakers? 7: Tonal palete does the OP prefer a warmer or clear sounding speaker?
Room:
1: We know the dimensions is the room sealed or open to any other rooms? 2: Is the room very live? 3: Is there an area rug or wall to wall carpeting? 4: Does the room have a lot of slap echo? 5: If the room does have a lot of slap echo is he open to adding some room panels?
Usage:
1: What kinds of music will be played? 2: How loud? 3: How long would the system be played? 4: Does he ever want to have a party and have the system play to fill up the space?
Speaker Buying:
1: Is new or used desirable? 2: Would an appropriate older or used model be an issue? 3: How oes the OP want to get service and support? 4: Would he travel to audition? 5: If a speaker is big and heavy does he have someone to assist him with the setup of the speakers?
As I noted, my space is similar to that of the OP: 45x24x16 - and it is very live with no carpets or other soft surfaces, but it does have various partitions that break up the waves - such as a free standing fireplace. If one of the OP's goals is to fill the space with music, the only option is trial and error. I auditioned several speakers that I really liked in a dealer's store or at a show, but that died in my home. It found that it easier to fill one end of the space with good sound than to fill the entire volume. I also did not want a huge monolith that would visually dominate the space. In general, I found that more sensitive speakers seemed to be a better fit.
Thank you for your observatiions GSM, if you note, they mirror our suggestions and observations.
We recommended a compact floor stander with prodigious bass and high efficiency and high power handling, with the opption of room correction which was what we were recommending, not that these were the only speakers nor that these are the "best" loudspeakers in the world it was just that their designer likes to build speakers that will fill large rooms and play loud without fear of blowing up.
It was for this very reason we brought in the iine in the first place.
We also gave examples of a few other systems that might work as well that were from other companies.
We have found even if you are somewhat close to a speaker in a large room it helps but doesnt take away the feeling that the sound is not filling the room.
We mentioned that at both the Cap and Axpona shows the huge systems by Vac and Von Schweikert were in a titantically large room probably 80 feet wide and 40 foot deep, big high ceiling and even those mammouth loudspeakrs failed to sound really big enough to sound convincing in that space, if the room was half the size, the sound would have been extraordinary.
In a big room you have a multitude of problems, which do not occur in a much smaller room.
"
We have found even if you are somewhat close to a speaker in a large room it helps but doesnt take away the feeling that the sound is not filling the room."
Agreed. And cranking up the volume does not alleviate the issue entirely.
Fortunately, there have been more than enough contributions to this thread for the OP to judge for himself who is trying to give disinterested suggestions and advice, and who approaches the whole thing with a bunch of biases.
It is not a "bias" to know what works in such a space, that is called experience.
When you build movie theaters some fo the same issues come to bear, such as filling of a room, durability of the speakers, power handling, dispersion qualities etc.
You can put a pair of Kef LS 50 in a giant room with a compact subwoofer and it will make sound, it is not pressurizing the room and creating a sense of presence.
We have never talked to GSM before but funny how he mirrors our comments almost word for word, he has experienced first hand that what works in a store, doesn't sound the same in a very large room.
Too many of you guys think we have an alterior motive, on some postings sure we do want to get people to check out certain products that we have found to be excellent that many people are not aware of like the Micromega M100/M150 and others.
However, nobody has purchased a single Micromega piece from us and time to time we will post pairings that sound really excellent that we have found.
We also give advice and opinions on other threads that are instructional in nature only.
... there have been more than enough contributions to this thread for the
OP to judge for himself who is trying to give disinterested suggestions
and advice, and who approaches the whole thing with a bunch of biases.
Pretty much everyone here is biased. Those that claim no bias are among those with the greatest biases.
I am fortunate to live in an urban area - Washington, DC - with several B&M stores and distributors who are willing to cooperate with in-home auditions. Nothing is as good as an in-home experience, especially when the room is challenging. I know that the OP does not have this luxury. But it is true nonetheless.
Twoleftears, recommending products we don’t sell isn’t in our vested interests now is it?
If we were just in it as you put it in it for our vested interests we wouldn’t have commented that Tekton, Salk Exotica 3 with the amplified bass, or a set of Jbls’s would also work now would we?
... Great speaker: footprint 12" x 12", 36" tall, pyramidial-shaped, full range 28hz - up, biwire-able; sometimes/rarely available on the vintage market and well worth searching out: late 1990s Gershman Avant Garde RX-20 (the earliest model), Avant Garde interations including newer models, up to the current model of the Avant Garde and the upscale version called the Grande Avant Garde (which is several inches taller due to a change in the base).
Heard both proac k3 and yg carmel 2 back to back. no contest yg is a lot better but everything has to be on par with this speakers; your equipment, cables even your source recording.
Proac on the other hand plays bad recording better making it more listenable. It is coloured in an enjoyable way.
If you dont have the equipment for revealing speakers like yg, magico, wilson etc, proac will do and its very good!
I have a wilson sasha 2 and hope to own proac k3 and harbeth 40.2 to alternate with my wilson. Proac is a fantastic speaker, they have better or more resolving mids than my wilson, but they have cabinet colouration that may bother others.
An almost 10,000 cubic foot room and people are recommending speakers with 5 inch woofers for a 600 wpc amplifier? I know everyone means well and it depends entirely on the desires of the OP but if I had a room like that I would deeply appreciate that a dealer took the time and offered advice. Furthermore, how is it biased to recommend products in equal measure alongside products said dealer does not carry?
The Maggies mentioned at the beginning should be 20.7, pair with a couple of subs and you could be there. The new 30.7 would definitely do the job but run about $30k and arr to nrw to find on the used market.
There are people here on audiogon that are FAR worse and much more obnoxious than audiotroy. We all have opinions, and it doesn’t bother me as long as there aren’t any personal attacks or "I’m smarter than you" attitudes. They sell audio components for a living, so yes, they’re going to have strong opinions one way or the other.
How much money do you have? I bought a pair of speakers from a gent that had a really big room that he put revel salon 2’s in with a pair of krell 550’s I think and a couple big name subs crossed over at 70hz that was happy with the sound. Another buddy has a pair of klipschhorns with a nackamichi 55wpc receiver that probably goes just as loud and he’s happy. I got a deal on a pair of dsp 8000’s that suit my room and taste and I don’t think I’ve ever heard better.
The usher be20-dmd can go loud and still sound good without too much power if you like the look. I loved mine but found them just a bit too big for my 17x27 room. There's a pair of dsp 8000's on ag that will do the job with room to upgrade later. These speakers are my favorite at used prices.
I have a set of proac D48r which I love. They replaced a set of Magnepan 1.6. The Maggie’s were amazing in there own right, but the d48r seem more musical to me, and they run extremely well with a smaller amplifier, in my case an ARC REF75se. The proac have amazing detail without sounding analytical and are just an amazing speaker to listen to all types of genres. I’m extremely happy with them. Only thing I wish is that I had more free time to enjoy them.
<<We tend to favor the bigger companies for one reason which is not price
but ultimate performance tends to be with these companies, which have
the raw engineering talent and budget to push the boundaries of sound.>> There you have it - from the horse's mouth.
I reread and you are shopping in the $12-16k range. My first listen would be the Vienna acoustics ‘the music’ your rooms big enough to handle the bass from the 3 9” woofers per box.
Dear paliden, Good morning / afternoon / evening. I have owned a pair of ProAC K6s for nearly a year and have been consistently delighted with them. No matter what the genre or era of music, these speakers deliver. They're well-balanced from head to foot, dynamic and accurate, but also highly engaging and musical. Yes, I too listen to some Cream, Clapton, Pink Floyd and a few pleasant-sounding ladies, all of which the K6s handle with utter aplomb.
However, my room is nothing as large as yours - it's only about 25' long, 13' wide and 13' high. As has been brought up several times in this thread, therefore, I am not at all sure whether the K6s will work as well for you as they have for me. The K8s may well do the trick, but at list price they are beyond your stated budget.
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