@daveyf
There’s just one more thing in relation to what you say above.
It’s not a straight choice between upgrading a Klimax LP12 to Bedrok or selling it to buy another brand of turntable. I would suggest that a far more likely option for most owners is merely to stick with the Klimax LP12.
Anyone who’s actually heard the current Klimax LP12, particularly with the synergy it has in an appropriate Linn Exakt system, would be aware that this is bound to be the default position.
Whatever the competition may be, this is still an amazing sounding turntable. Miles better than it was even a few years ago before Karousel, etc.
People don’t just became dissatisfied with their turntables overnight because a new upgrade has become available.
In any case, selling it to buy another brand of turntable is unlikely to be a cost effective option.
|
Linn do machining of Klimax cases out of solid blocks of aluminium. So I guess the machining of the Bedrok is not beyond them, it must just suit them to outsource it.
The Bedrok has been sculpted out to the extent necessary to accommodate the sub chassis, Urika, etc. It comes with a top plate already attached.
Here’s what Linn say on their website. Make of it what hou will.
Bedrok™ for LP12 is the first-ever, plinth performance upgrade from Linn. Formed of orthogonal layers of beech placed under extreme pressure and heat to create an entirely new, solid and massive material, this engineered, ultra-dense wood has negligible resonance and superior acoustic isolation.
Rock solid
The LP12 plinth affects everything. Everything is mounted to it, and every component depends on its stability, mass, and resonance characteristics. With more than double the density of a standard LP12 plinth, Bedrok™ is uniformly solid, heavy, and ultra-low resonance.
Reach beneath the surface
Bedrok™ technology makes each component the plinth houses perform better. It’s an holistic upgrade which improves every aspect of your LP12 – more pace, tighter bass, greater insight, and greater enjoyment!
|
Yes, I guess I was thinking of the Booplinth, when I referred to bamboo, not the Bedrock. But my subsequent wondering about this and that applies to both. Why no cross-bracing? And why no attempt to create a plinth that fills in the void under the platform that supports everything else with sculpted wood or other material, sculpted to accommodate the workings that hang down, so as to eliminate the potentially resonant air chamber? That approach has been successful with idler drives (Garrard and Lenco aftermarket plinths) and with direct drive (see PBN Audio plinth for DP80). Since I approach the question from a position of complete naivete’, I wonder whether it has been done and was not so successful. No devoted Lenco-ite would be caught listening with the OEM Lenco plinth, which was hollow inside.
|
@lewm Presumably you are talking about the Booplinth? You ask some great questions, why no bracing etc.,
There have been a number of aftermarket plinth makers, some involving all metal plinths, various wood combo’s etc., none of these have been that successful from a SQ perspective.
Also, there is certainly a premium attached to a plinth that comes from Linn themselves, even if they are re-badging the product. I suspect that Linn did not want a bamboo plinth, as they would be in direct competition with the Booplinth, and they knew that they needed to exceed the ability of that product. Apparently, this has been accomplished with the new Bedrok...at a price!
|
If I were a Linn aficionado, the Bedrock would stimulate me to think up other ways to make a plinth that would probably cost less but also further improve upon the bedrock. I think the one piece bamboo idea is terrific but why no internal cross bracing if rigidity is a goal and why no attempt to fill the hollow space below the works with a contoured structure of the same composition? Has that been tried and found wanting?
|
@daveyf Even if Linn have the cnc machinery, it probably isn't worth their while tying up a machine making those plinths given the volumes involved. More generally, very few audiophile hi fi manufacturers are vertically integrated - i.e make everything in house. But there's no easy rule about make / buy, decisions as they are called. SME is an example of a company with very high levels of vertical integration and it doesn't result in their turntables being particularly affordable.
|
@yoyoyaya That aspect makes it even worse! I have to question how many folks will pony up for the Bedrok, vs. simply going in another direction with another table, at a price like you brought our attention to.
Interesting thing, and I’m not sure if this is totally correct, on a Linn forum, there is a well informed member who informed the group that Linn do not actually manufacture the Bedrok plinth themselves! Instead it is farmed out to a secondary vendor, who specializes in woodwork. Apparently, Linn do no woodwork themselves. This might explain some of the price attributable to the Bedrok..maybe?
|
@daveyf - btw, that price I quoted includes 20 percent EU sales tax!
|
@newton_john No worries mate, it’s just a hobby. Now back to discussing the many attributes of the Linn LP12 table.
|
@daveyf
Humble apologies. I got that totally wrong. I should have realised it would have been out of character for you to say something like that. Sorry, I’ll read more carefully next time.
I look forward to a company such as Tangerine Audio bringing out a cheaper version of the Bedrok.
|
@newton_john I think you misread a lot into my posts. I did not state that all Bedrok buyers are 'blind and besotted'. I did say that I am not 'blind and besotted' when it comes to the various Linn products. There certainly are, at least IMO, a lot of Linn consumers who this applies to ( blind and besotted when it comes to the line). Not necessarily all of the Bedrok consumers, like you assumed I stated.
Also, notice what @yoyoyaya posted above. The price of the table he references equates to JUST the price of the Bedrok plinth in the US!
|
In Europe, a Clearaudio Innovation is under €11,000. That gets you two panzerholz/alu chassis, plus ceramic magnetic bearing, stainless/POM platter etc.
|
@daveyf
In that case, we are in agreement.
I have already said that the new Bedrock version of LP12 enters a new segment of the market, different from where the current Select and Klimax configurations are positioned. No one can know for sure how successful this venture will be.
As I am not currently considering any turntable purchases, the number of competitors the LP12 has is neither to my liking or disliking. These are not football teams to support, merely products that some people may chose between. It’s not a matter of being a fan of anything.
We’ve already been through the various reasons why a Klimax LP12 owner might chose to upgrade to the Bedrok. I don’t subscribe to your somewhat jaundiced view that those who follow this route are blind and besotted.
|
@newton_john I am not saying that the entry level price of the LP12 Majik is any less competitive than it was before, nor the other variations up to the Klimax. But I do think that when you add the cost of the new Bedrok to the Klimax, or probably for that matter even the Akurate model, you now encounter, as a consumer, a larger range of competitors that may or may not be more to your liking. Obviously, no one has to opt for the Bedrok plinth, but the question becomes if they do, have these very same buyers done their homework?
|
@daveyf
Of course, you and other sophisticated consumers will make decisions about turntables as you see fit. That is as it should be,
Where you are completely wrong is to claim that the game has changed because the price of the LP12 has increased. It hasn’t increased at all. The Majik, Select and Klimax versions and all other permutations of the LP12 available up to now are as competitive with other turntables as they have ever been.
The fact that we now have a new Bedrok version of the LP12 doesn’t change that. You are talking as if the Bedrok has become compulsory. Clearly it isn’t.
Yes, the Bedrok version of the LP12 will be competing in a higher price bracket, but with a higher level of performance. I don’t know how well it will sell. Or even if Linn care about that. They may be relying on upgrade sales to existing Klimax LP12 owners.
For all we know, it might give Linn access to a new market segment. I can’t say. The only indication we have is that they appeared to have done very well out of the considerably more expensive LP12-50, despite the chorus of naysayers online. So it is a fair presumption that they know what they are doing here.
|
@newton_john you seem to fail to comprehend that as the LP12 increases in price that it now encounters more able competition. To the more sophisticated consumer, that now leads them away from the Linn turntable. Remember that the table still has several issues that are, at least to the advanced hobbyists, problematic. One is the fact that the table cannot utilize multiple tonearms, two, the fact that the current arm is not competitive at the highest level, and three, the table will always be susceptible to issues with set up, requiring a ‘fettler’ ( many of whom in the US are becoming extinct). I can go on and on. But don’t get me wrong, I am still a big Linn fan, just not a blind and besotted fan…the type that Linn are hoping to sell their plinth to.
Also,your second sentence is complete nonsense, why because by adding over $11k to the table for the cost of just the plinth, Linn have now absolutely changed the ratio of cost/value to their competitors.
|
Is there any truth to the rumour that a family in Scotland Klimaxed when they heard the upcoming price of the Bedrok. Or was that a Ekos in his pocket?
|
@daveyf
Your second paragraph is complete nonsense.
The price of the LP12 relative to other turntables hasn’t changed at all.
What has happened is that Linn, not for the first time, have launched a additional level of the turntable above the current Klimax LP12.
This is not going to make any difference to the sales of the existing LP12 range of products. Why should the existence of an additional option put people off the LP12 and push them to other brands anymore than they are already inclined?
It is actually a positive as LP12 owners now have another level to aspire to, even if they don’t want it or can’t afford it at the present time. How on earth can that make the LP12 less competitive as you imply?
As always, any development in the LP12 orbit brings out all the Linn bashers and those who are jealous of people with greater spending power. Why give them any more encouragement with that spurious argument?
|
@daveyf Yup. There are so many wealthy folks nowadays with open checkbooks and not a care in the world willing to pay for high-priced toys.
|
@newton_john No question, you are correct that Linn’s target market for the new Bedrok plinth are existing Klimax owners. I know of one such owner who has ordered the new plinth.
My point is that as the price asked increases to the sky, personally I would be becoming more discerning and make sure that the table I am considering will perform at the highest level. I would not, and will not, just keep jumping on the Linn upgrade band wagon without at least educating myself as to what the competition offers at similar price points.It does surprise me that the person whom I know who has ordered the Bedrok has not done this, but he falls into the category of high end consumer that shops by price, assuming the higher, the better.
|
@noromance while I agree with you, the price of the new Bedrok plinth seems excessive, I also know that unless a very high price is asked for high end anything, potential buyers assume it is less worthy.
Looking at the latest issue of The Absolute Sound, we see numerous pieces of gear that are priced at or above the price of a brand new car! The complexity of just about any new vehicle, never mind the number of parts and engineering prowess that has come into play, makes all high end audio gear look ludicrous on its face.
|
It's the value of materials over the obvious extortion that bugs me. I've been quoted $800 to have a one-off block of Panzerholz, a CAD and a CNC waterjet plinth built for a Garrard 401.
|
@daveyf
Linn’s target market for the Bedrok is existing owners of the Klimax LP12.
Their choice is whether to stick with what they’ve got or upgrade to a Bedrok.
No doubt, they will be some who go for the upgrade.
The mere existence of the upgrade is not going to cause those who don’t upgrade to suddenly do an about turn and sell their turntables so they can buy Regas instead.
I am not at all sure why you think the typical consumer like Dover’s opinions on the LP12 have any bearing on this.
It’s not a matter of luck that you’re not an Exakt user. It was the result of choices that you’ve made.
|
@newton_john You make some good points, but to the typical consumer, like Dover above, the idea of a high priced table that may or may not compete with the competition, and one that needs a specific set up, is an issue.
i’m more in the middle of these two positions, personally, I like the table enough to consider it a keeper, but as the price for the upgrades sky rockets,I’m more open to looking at the competition. Plus, I think weiserb correctly pointed out, there are alternatives at certain price points that might be superior.
Your point about the Exact users and others who need the Urika phono stages is valid, luckily that does not apply to me, and I would suspect the majority of folks.
|
For the US price of the Linn Bedrock you can get a brand new Rega Naia, flog off your Linn and buy a truckload of records.
No more weekly visits to the Linn Doctor, no migraines because the suspension has gone off, no more waiting for next weeks must have upgrade.
You get a TT that's commensurate with the Linn, and a truckload of money left over for records, other toys etc.
Like an old Bentley past its sell buy date, the Linn is a money pit.
More importantly do you want to spend your golden years fiddling with a Rube Goldberg TT , or would you rather spend them listening to music by buying a TT that does not require constant fettling, maintenance, prayers ( to the Linn gods ) and extreme patience.
|
@daveyf there’s potential reasons why Linn are confident of that:
- Better the devil you know - Linn have never let them down before
- Many customers have Exakt systems and want to keep their Urika IIs
- They like the LP12 sound
- Linn know that Bedrok improves sound considerably and will bear comparison with the competition
- Despite the price tag, it’s less expensive to upgrade than to change deck, phono stage and probably cartridge
- Long established customer relationships with Linn dealers
|
@weiserb There you have it…as the LP12 price increases, the options do as well.
I would certainly be looking at what the competition offers at the price of just a new plinth, never mind the full cost of the LP12 Klimax with Bedrok!
Linn must believe that their customers are so loyal that what the competition offers is irrelevant.
|
Formed of orthogonal layers of beech placed under extreme pressure and heat to create... beech PLYWOOD.
I love my LP 12's but for this amount of money I would upgrade to an used SME Model 20.
|
|
@olskool
I am pleased to hear the BooPlinth was a success for you.
I did see one at an audio show. Unfortunately, it wasn’t in use at the time so I can’t comment on its sound.
My turntable is now back in action after a few weeks with a fault. It’s fantastic to have vinyl again. I just don’t get the same pleasure out of streaming Qobuz or local files on a DSM.
|
Thanks for the note newton_john. I realize the sharing of the comment from another who had heard both was offered as one more twig of opinion in the campfire discussion of new gear for Linn and the price that accompanies it. I also agree with daveyf and lewm that certainly there is a lot more needed to empirically state that one is better than the other. Now that we’re talking about it I’m not so sure that there could actually be a definitive means of claiming that (same old argument for us I think), considering all the variances involved; hearing acuity, personal taste, room, gear (solid state vs. tube) etc. I’m just glad someone chimed in a while back about what they heard in reading about the BooPlinth followed by a fair amount of someones who heard the BooPlinth to cause me to take the risk to spend $2,400 US and buy it for my system. I think one of the downfalls of our hobby is there’s a lot that can’t easily be demonstrated, especially in your own home system. I guess I got lucky in that purchase that it all lined up for me as a great decision. Who knows, the Bedrok might blow me away too, just not sure that it’s value proposition is enough for me to take the risk.
Olskool
|
@daveyf
As I said, it’s only one guy’s opinion.
Linn do have a very clear idea of what better means.
However, I’m a little surprised that one or two people appear to be spending £8,750, without first listening. I guess they just have to have the latest thing.
It’s not just a matter of it being better. It’s also a question if whether it is enough of an improvement to justify spending that much money. As we have discussed before, everybody has to make their own call on that.
Although I’m not surprised that some people do have faith in Linn’s upgrades. Their reputation is built on past performance. I can’t think of one supposed upgrade that wasn’t an improvement.
|
What davey said, especially if considering an opinion from "some guy".
|
@newton_john The term ’better’ is extremely subjective in our hobby. To one person, ’better’ means the system sounds louder without strain, to another ’better’ might mean the system plays softer with more realism. IMO, in order to truly determine if the ’Bedrok’ plinth suits one’s taste in reproduction more than another upgrade, one has to actually hear a Linn LP12 with Bedrok in one’s own system..and room. Then determine for oneself if the cost of said improvement ( if any) is worth it to the particular persons pocket book.
I am aware that some folk order the upgrades without first hearing what their $$’s will buy them...personally I fail to see the wisdom in that approach.
|
@olskool
I saw some comments by a guy who had heard a direct comparison between the BooPlinth and Bedrok. I think it was in one of the Linn Facebook groups. He said that he preferred the BooPlitnth.
Ok, it’s only one person’s opinion, but at least it suggests it’s not a slam dunk that the Bedrok is better. That’d be pretty amazing considering the £6,000 price difference.
|
It is odd that the plinth would have such an impact on a spring suspended turntable. I can easily understand the power supply, bearing, sub chassis, but plinth?
The fettlers I have talked to in the past all assured me that the plinth was the last area to gain any SQ…which did make some sense. Certainly when I swapped out my original Afro plinth for a new Oak plinth, there was a step up in SQ, but not comparable to the bearing swap out.
|
Hi daveyf, long time no talk! Great to see you active here. Since I’ve never heard the Bedrok I can’t speculate how much of a percentage the two play in comparison. As far as Cirkus to Karousel it was a surprisingly large improvement. I will say however the BooPlinth was absolutely the largest single performance improvement to come through my LP12 and it would be quite a feat to outpace that by another plinth. It seems Linn is confident in it based on list price. Have we had a listening review of the actual table and plinth from someone who knows the sound with and without?
Olskool
|
@noromance Agree. The banana junk was actually sold for $6.2M to a crypto genius. All of this could be considered as a spit in the eye to the waged, as you pointed out.
|
@olskool Nice to see you here again. Question, do you rank the Booplinth improvement in the same area as the bearing..ie. Cirkus to Karousel? For me, that was one of the best upgrades regarding SQ, and also value wise.
Personally, I have a feeling that a Booplinth gets one at least 90% of the way to the Bedrok plinth, but at a far lower price. The aspect of diminishing returns for money spent will be very evident with the various plinths, IMO.
|
There’s a scene in the TV series, Making Anna where a Russian oligarch pours a coke into a glass of ($3000/bottle) wine. His point was to shove his unflinching wealth into the face of the proletariat waiter. That is what that banana junk was–a spit in the eye of the waged. Same with the BadRock.
Remember, someone paid $1M for a banana attached to a wall with a piece of tape...everything is all relevant to your income.
|
Hi fellow LP12 fans! Interesting reading posted by the group! I too am a dyed in the wool Linn LP12 fan! My table is “full spec” Klimax level that I’m pleased to say began at base Majic level and was brought up step by step together with my dealer over time to include every latest upgrade, including the spindle only with exception of the latest Ekos SE (with longer head shell area and the latest Bedrock Plinth. I can only reply about the Bedrock by saying Wowww! and that’s about the price only. I have no comment on value or performance. I’m responding because I feel so fortunate to have spent a meager $2,500 US to get a Bamboo CNC’d BooPlinth installed a handful of years back (4+ years ago). It was such a profound boost in performance that I was dumbfounded by it (and remain so today)! To the point that I can’t believe it never gained more market footing and respect. Other than the price, if the Bedrock brings half the audio performance increase achieved by the BooPlinth you may hear greatly improved stuff! As far as value relates to money, Your Mileage may vary! I’m glad I invested in bringing my plinth up in performance! It was a serious dollars to performance value gain for me!
Olskool
|
I just replaced my original Afro fluted plinth with a new Linn Oak plinth. Looks amazing and sounds better. Personally, i think the Oak plinth looks far better than the new Bedrok...maybe not as great an increase in SQ, but the price difference is major.
|
@daveyf it’s hurting my eyes. Stack audio made 2 prototypes of an LP12 plinth made of aluminium with black wood veneer to die for.
|
@ricco275 +1. I was thinking the same thing, but also thought that maybe that was just my dislike of the aesthetics.
|
The only issue with that plinth is that it doesn’t look good. Spending good money on such an upgrade should reward the eye and not only the ear. Especially if you want to resonate with Linn clients.
|
I just knew this thread would not disappoint! On another note, I'm feeling fortunate that my floor is a concrete slab, so I don't have to worry about dreaded "footfalls." After reading about this on Audiogon, I went over to my turntable while it was playing and jumped up and down; my eyes and ears did not detect any change in the music.
|
Elliot, The spring suspension isolates the chassis, motor, platter, bearing, etc, from the plinth, at least that is my understanding without having owned an LP12. So I would think of the plinth as being outside the suspension system. One would have to be careful adding further isolation that affects the plinth, since any additional external suspension might spuriously interact with the springs, producing oscillation in the worst case scenario.
Incidentally, I own a Denon DP80 that came to me with the DK300 plinth and a Victor TT101 that came to me with its OEM plinth. I ditched the DK300 in favor of slate, and I heavily modified the TT101 plinth by (1) replaced the armboard with a solid aluminum copy to which I added mass and further rigidity from below, and (2) added about 20 lbs of mass and constrained layer damping to the plinth by bolting to it some large pieces of solid aluminum, from below. The OEM TT101 armboard was a joke in the light of our current understanding of the need for rigidity, mass, and coupling to the bearing. I can't swear to it now, but I think the DK300 is made from MDF, which to my ear adds an obvious cardboardy coloration.
|
I had assumed, (like the Denon, JVC and Sony Plinths) that it was solid with only cutouts as needed for more substance. Seems it’s mostly Hollow within.
Does it come with adjustable isolating feet? From 'footfall' comments, it seems all these years they should have been researching proper options
|
I have not heard a Bedrok plinth...as such, I cannot state whether or not the impact on the SQ is worth it to me. But I can state that I will not denigrate or venerate the upgrade until I have had some experience with it...
The price asked obviously makes it a target for folks who cannot budget it, but that in no way means it is not worthy.
|
not my proudest moment, but you two should accept some blame for taking me or Bedrok seriously.
|
