No, this is all about you. You made an informed decision by going through the trouble of procuring and comparing. That was a smart move. I’m just surprised by how quickly you acted—it suggests that the disparity between Harmony and May is so obvious that it swayed your decision. Nevertheless, the outcome aligns with what I had researched before. Congratulation. |
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@soix while the Harmony and the May share a beautiful natural timbre, the May is more micro and macro dynamic. The soundstage is much wider and the sound is more robust. |
@campo007 cheers for sharing your impressions. Suspect a few more more hours would have narrowed the gap a bit but how much, fair enough acting swiftly. What source were/are you feeding em both with? Btw not surprised to hear re the macro dynamics delta especially, more expensive DAC with separately housed multiple linear PS, this came across a little in the Virtualhifi comparison vid.
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@kereru I’m feeding the DACs with an Auralic Aries S1 with external PSU, and a Shanling ET-3 CD transport. |
@campo007 Thanks - the Aries S1 with ext PS looks pretty sweet indeed - probably the streamer to beat at that price level and above methinks, had been aware of the highly rated G2.2 and G1.1 but hadn’t caught up on the newer S1.. just watched Hans’ review. The ability to act as a DDC for other digital inputs is further - and rare - value add. |
The LAIV is a very good dac but in several respects I feel the Denafrips New 15 is a bit better in several areas especially low, midBass for it has Large Dual power supplies and much higher end Evos capacitors ,he power supplies not just shared ,and depth of image a bit better this too maybe do to the power supplies ,leading edge the LAIV is a hair better in imaging ,but the 15 th has 2 modes non oversampling and nos, your tweeters character would determine which mode to use .the LAIV being $800 more ,if you throw in another $400 you can have the Hermes 12 Reclocker which then makes nothing in its price class this good .this reclocker I find once you put it in your system your dac just is not as clear and defined without it . The Denafrips Hermes is a bargain at $1200, at our audio gatherings ithe Pontus 15 and Hermes combo beat every dac in its price class and easilly beat the Venus 12 pretty soundly,as well as Holo springs 3. if you have $3200 to spend and use the preferred I2S -hdmi connection . |
According to Hans’ rating scale, the Cyan 2 seems like a sweet deal but a no-frills, barebones product. With no buttons or remote control, I consider it the poor man’s May. More relevantly, it offers true NOS but lacks an OS option. However, you can still do oversampling using software like HQPlayer if that’s something you’re craving.
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I was purchaser number nine of the LAiV Harmony. My input board has died. I’m not the first with this problem. It appears there has been a quality problem of some sort. Response from LAiV was within hours with a promise for a new board. I’ll follow up with my experience. Until it expired, I have been very impressed with the DAC. |
@audioman58 with the issues LAiV is having it cannot be a very good DAC. |
@tkrtrb125 That’s not a fair conclusion at all. This is a new product, and it’s not at all unheard of that any new product can have an unforeseen issue. The key is how the company handles it, and in this case LAiV seems to be very responsive in fixing the problem quickly if it arises. Almost all owners/reviewers have been very impressed with its performance especially for the price, which strongly indicates it is indeed “a very good DAC.” |
@soix I am not being harsh, QC is not optimized if they are getting faulty boards . As @jayctoy said they may sound good but not reliable. Being responsive is their cooperate responsibility and nothing less should be expected. I maybe throwing the baby out with the bath water but heck the L1011 was a great airplane and Lockheed was responsive after a few crashed due to quality and serviceability issues. This is my opinion and we will see how it comes out in the wash, regardless of the reviews, and I have had the opportunity to hear one, and based on reliability issues it is not a good DAC in my book. |
I just purchased Harmony, based on reviews, usb implementation in this dac and R2R dacs in general, I2S input is necessary for best performance. To this end I'll implement either Musician Phoenix or Denafrips Gaia DDC with high quality HDMI cable in order to maximize performance.
I'll be comparing to my Musetec 005, new Musetec 006 coming in same time as Harmony. I'm interested in how these Sabre chip dacs compare to R2R. Some claim Sabre chip dacs not 'natural' sound, I've had many Sabre chip dacs, lack of natural timbre, tonality is not a universal trait of these dacs in my experience.
With the DDC I'll also have chance to compare I2S vs. USB inputs on the Musetec dacs, Sabre dacs reportedly not as sensitive to clocking as R2R. My long held assumption is R2R dacs in general not as resolving, transparent as Sabre chip. |
@tkrtrb125 What data are you using to back this claim? So far, I've only seen 2 failures out of an estimated few hundred owners (including myself) reporting overwhelmingly positive experiences across various forums. I've owned the Harmony since launch and hadn't had a single hiccup, despite using it almost daily. That's an extremely low failure rate. Check out a new product launch from a major company like Samsung or even Nvidia to compare. I actually went through 3 returns on a Samsung TV a few years ago that had the same defects before giving up. Nvidia literally had meltdowns and fires due to their connector design. I've since bought another Samsung and they no longer have the issue, but the point is that failures (especially with electronics) are common and expected regardless of the manufacturer or product, which is why warranties exist. Laiv gives a 3 year warranty and is very responsive. My credit card doubles that and the DAC itself sounds wonderful. Your argument is that a ~1% failure rate makes it a bad product that should be avoided? That's insane. |
@pynkfloydd knock on wood. Stand by what I said, hope you are right and I am wrong. Not sure where you are getting your data on ownership and failures. Couple of forums is not a valid comparison. Enjoy your DAC and keep a fire extinguisher close by. |
My favorite dac Best Buy under$12k is still the T+A 200 dac,preamp, which I Donot own . I have decades in audio and mod loudspeakers ,and have had many things upgraded, parts quality I know well, just look compare Apples to Apples in other brands and build quality,many people forget this very important aspect. the harmony dac should have used separate transformers and power supplies, that is for example for the Digital to Analog conversion ,then to try to squeeze transformer taps all in one like a integrated amp.vs separates ,this is why monoblocks have much better isolation and Sonic purity and ,better bass punch for 1 example.
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@audioman58 so you have listened to every DAC under 12K to date? Bet not, sure glad I never sought advice from you ever! |
A Farrari is a great car but if it has design,reliabity issues what good is that ? case and dual transformers power supplies and regulators better stability but at a higher build cost . I owned a Audio store for over a decade and saw everything including digital from the mid 80s to today it has come a long way , nothing is perfect ,but some issues are preventable. |
I have heard the Harmony dac several times with Holo springs 3 and Lampi Amber 4 .I can say without reservation the New Denafrips 15 punched way above its $2100:price point it was not only musical but had great dynamics and bass control more so then the dacs heard above for less monies. ,the Lampi Amber4 was the meatiest having tubes but lacked slam and a bit of inner detail , heard with the Iris12 Ddc using I2S gave it a added bit of image depth and detail , we tried the older Hermes ddc on the harmony , Holo springs and Pontus 15 I felt naturalness was only better as-well as every aspect of the music, the new Hermes 12 is much better one guy said That has one but didnot want to take his out of his system which was not cool. I may buy one now, just make sure the pin out on the I2S - hdmi cable matches, wireworld I2S cables seem to be popular and match the pS audio protocol. |
@audioman58 the Ferrari comparisons are very old. The Lavi is a Vega at best. Not a Cosworth either. |
What lots of guys greatly overlook is the build quality , from my experiences and through audio clubs I have gone to that take the cover off and look under the hood the New Denafrips gear from what others that own it the New Engineering team at Denafrips is really good I heard the new Terminator 15 it sounded great in a Big audio system their best dac to date and was like 45lbs and 2 sections with mu metal separating the power supplies , the little guy 18 lb Pontus 15 also have dual transformers ,they call it a Baby terminator was very good ,at $2100 nothing was close in its price class and proffered it to the Harmony which is not even close on build quality the pontus had 2 floors ,bottom for the huge power supplies and big transformers and a ton of high quality capacitors from Japan .up top dual precision clocks and FPGA buffers and a few other things I didnot understand .they are discontinuing the Venus 12, because the pontus is that close ,now a new more expensive Venus 15 coming out soon , that good news for the buyer ,competition. |
What do you expect for $2700, Harmony build quality looks okay at the price. Certainly its not full size enclosure, so everything compressed to some extent.
So, there are a few instances of input board issues, I'd like to know what percentage of Harmony are having this issue. And should we expect more failures over time? Issue may be heat related, compressed physical size of unit is a consideration. Now to the good, input board looks to be pretty easy to replace, modular design, I'd have no issues diy, but then I'm seasoned in modding, No doubt reliability a factor in determining ultimate quality of any component, these failures may or may not turn out to be a major issue. I assume Laiv did their due diligence in evaluating reliability, but manufacturer can only test so many units. Also interested to know if it is one particular input causing the issue. |
@tkrtrb125 Modern electronic devices have a very low probability of starting fires as the failure modes are designed to be rather uneventful. You have a far higher probability starting a fire with tube gear (just from the tubes producing heat alone) than a device based on modern surface mount components failing. I’ve repaired my share of PCBs following failures to have zero cares about this... If you’re kept up at night about a DAC causing a fire, might as well remove the stove, furnace and electrical wiring in your home as those are listed as the top causes of residential fires by the National Fire Protection Association.
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@audioman58 Why didn't you disclose that you're an authorized Denafrips dealer? |
@happybuyer thanks.😊 |
I've had the Harmony for about a month and it's not going back. I know nothing about USB interfaces and currently using an OCC based cable and it sounds fantastic. I may look at some DDCs with I2S, but anticipate that Weng will release their streamer w/ I2S. Hermes is on my list along with Halo Red, Singxer and maybe Musician. |
@standardmodel Have you received your new Input Board yet? How did the installation go? |
I have no dog in this fight, as I own a Denafrips Pontus II with I2S from a Denafrips Iris DDC. I know quality seems to be an issue right now for the Laiv, but if anyone will help get it corrected; it is Alvin Chee at Vinshine Audio (importer for Laiv, Jay's Audio, LHY, Kinki Studio....and formerly Denafrips). He is still bar none, the best and most involved importer I've ever dealt with. Secondly, if anyone is still looking at the Laiv, Vinshine is offering at 10% discount on the Harmony for any of his previous customers. That's $3,300 Singapore dollars, which is $2,540 in US dollars |
First listening sessions with Laiv. Preliminaries: Spent the last few years obsessing over entire steaming chain, all T's crossed and I's dotted, most everything custom and/or off the shelf and modified to some extent. If interested in particulars, on my virtual system page.
In any case, Musetec MH-DA005 has been my reference for the past few years, Delta Sigma using Sabre 9038pro chips, virtually unknown dac without a single professional or youtube video I'm aware of.
My setup employees optimized usb setup, used to have Singxer SU6 for I2S, no longer have provision for this, thus, usb input to Harmony used.
So here we have the Harmony, seems like dac of the month or year or what have you. Not expecting much with these type dacs, flavor of the month and all. On top of that, R2R/ladder dac which I've been biased against as relatively low resolving, overly forgiving topology. So I started off in OS mode, meh, not interesting in the least, over processed, analytical sound, not musical in the least, and the Musetec easily bests it on any analytical scale while being far more musical, natural. So switch to NOS, so ok, this more like it. Like an instant blooming of sound stage and imaging, something like when burning in tubes and they suddenly come on song. Speaking of sound stage, I heard both deep depth and a wide stage, width is one criticism I've seen in some reviews, this not the case here, pretty equal to Musetec here. As for depth, I heard more layering vs Musetec, something that seems to be a specialty of ladder dacs in general. Imaging, very dimensional, each performer individualized on this large sound stage. And size, life size, full bodied, just as they are with Musetec. No doubt modded Klipschorns have something to do with this, large speakers play large in my experience.
Keeping in mind sound stage and imaging are part and parcel of the resolving abilities of our equipment, the Harmony no slouch here, it dug deep and brought out lower level information, much like the Musetec, Transparency up there as well, easily brought performers into room, typical of Musetec and my system in general. Overall, the Laiv presentation very involving.
Speaking of presentation, Harmony vs Musetec. Really hard to get a grasp on this, both very involving in different ways, and most interesting some recordings sound superior on one dac vs the other and vice versa. Very strange how I can't predict which recordings will favor one or the other, sometimes I'd think certain audiophile recordings, lesser recordings, or recordings based on genre or complexity would favor one or the other and I'd be completely wrong! Speaking of particulars, Harmony has this holistic feel, or sense of natural flow that comes closer to replicating vinyl. Musetec presentation highlights inner detail, greater individualization of performers, yet still in a highly cohesive presentation. I find both compelling!
Now for the nits of Harmony, bass easily more prominent, rounder and less articulate than Musetec. Sometimes bass overwhelmed, bringing excessive attention to bass register, could even color certain recording a shade dark.Overall, I prefer Musetec here, bass presentation neutral, simply presents what's on the recording. Still, I wouldn't call the bass problematic, as on some recordings I actually preferred the Laiv, my sense is if the bass on recording is proportional to rest of freq. spectrum Laiv ok, also fine with more natural sounding recordings, Natural resonances of bass instruments fine with Laiv.
The other nit with Laiv concerns a certain loss of composure, organization or ability to individualize performers during complex passages. Mustec retains an even keel with complex passages or recordings with large number of performers. I suspect timing issues at play here, R2R dacs reportedly play better with I2S inputs. This makes sense from a technical viewpoint, large banks of resistors rely on accurate and precise clocking in order to perform best.
Another enigma heard with Laiv, can't get a handle on dynamics just yet, especially the micro kind, just when I think I'm hearing lacking here, suddenly springs to life. I find my attention focused on this certain flat, sameness at times, the breath of life the Musetec does far more consistently seems hit or miss proposition. Could be burn in, believe Harmony may have as little as 50 hours of so on it.
Bottom line, I believe this dac is the real deal, certainly I can hear nits but with some more burn in and/or I2S input I can take up a notch. So, yes, I'd say the nearly universal praise of this dac warranted. With the exception of Hans' pan and Michael Lavorgnia's positive evaluation of OS mode I concur with this being a nice dac regardless of price, could be reference dac for many.
My only issue regarding value is, if this thing requires I2S to reach full potential this means another box, another expense required. In my case, Denafrips Gaia with Audioquest Diamond hdmi cable, $2500 plus $2700 equals $5200. If one already has I2S capability they forego this, but I'm sure many of us don't. Already in house I have the Musetec 005, $3200 retail, in process of burning in newly purchased Musetec 006, $3900, T & A 200 dac available used at around $5k, also the LTA Aero, $3900. These all dacs on my horizon as I switch focus to dacs in the coming year. |
@sns Yeah, I think a trial of the LTA DAC would be a great idea in your case and no i2S option to fret over. If I’m you I’d buy a used Denafrips Iris and a cheap HDMI cable (that’s what I did) just to see what happens — I have a feeling it’d take the Harmony to a significantly higher level, and if it doesn’t just sell it but at least you’ll know. BTW, my Iris isn’t going anywhere unless I eventually upgrade to a Hermes. Just my $0.02 FWIW. |
@soix I've considered less expensive DCC, financially speaking this may make more sense, on the other hand I'd like to give Laiv best opportunity to reach it's full potential.
Also curious LTA agnostic about inputs, doesn't even offer I2S. I've always heard and believed ladder dacs benefit from the dedicated clock leg only I2S offers. With the Laiv you can sync to either transport or dac internal clock, superior clock in Gaia another reason I'd chose Gaia over others. |
@sns - I heard similar with certain cables. I've since upgraded my power conditioner to the Audioquest 7000 and experimented with power cables, settling on a DIY AC cord consisting of Supra silver plated LoRad SPC terminated with Oyaide Armored AP-004/AC-004 (close 2nd are IeGO's 8085) and feel everything is dialed in very well. Just my experience, but it seems Laiv's power input is quite sensitive. Might be worth experimenting with cords after some additional burn-in to see if you also notice a difference. |
@pynkfloydd Extremely unlikely power cables, any cables or my modified BPT 3.5 Signature power conditioner at fault. I went through the whole cable routine borrowing cables from lending library at Cable Company, PC's, IC's and speaker at many price points and many manufacturers. I now use diy recipe designed by williewonka, the Helix Image for my PC's, I use VH Audio Airlock in various configurations. I've no doubt the congestion is combo of lack of burn in and the less than optimal usb input. Comparing usb input design on my Musetecs to Harmony leaves Harmony wanting, I2S the way to go.
By the way I use the balanced outs on Harmony to my fully balanced to modified and updated fully balanced Coincident Statement preamp. Based on a couple reviewers who've tried both balanced and SE, balanced preferred on Harmony. |
@pynkfloydd You got me to thinking about my power cables and it just came into my mind I can change bass output with my pc recipes (been a while since I had need to build one). I generally use Take Five Audio cryo'd silver plated copper on neutrals, I can change bass output by changing out number of runs and/or gauge, can also do this to some extent with number or runs on hot with the VH Audio AirLock, further adjustments also possible with gauge of ground wire.
Quite sure I can get the bass in proper tonal balance with rest of frequency spectrum with some adjustments here. Thanks for knocking on my brain door!
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No problem! I think you've hit the nail on the head... Maybe not a "fault" as much as a tweak. Interested in hearing your impressions after further experimenting! Amongst my worst combo (aside from a few bad cables) included Furutech's gold plugs and reminded me of the same negatives you've highlighted.
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I reported above that the input stage of my LAiV Harmony Dac died. After I reported the problem, I had a response in a matter of hours that a new board would be sent to me. It arrived by FedEx along with a ground strap, white gloves, new screws and a new warranty sticker in about three days. Half an hour to install following a YouTube video with installation instructions and the problem was solved. LAiV wanted the old board back. I took it to UPS and they wanted $115.00 to send the old board back (maybe six ounces). I then went to the US post office and it cost $14.00 to send it back. I asked why the failure and was told that a board supplier had sent an initial batch of boards with a latent defect and there hasn't been a problem since.
StandardModel |
@standardmodel This is how it should be done. I hope American manufacturers are taking notice. I’m still miffed about the lack of communication from a certain California/ Texas based company. I had to return not one, but two of their flagship products for the same defect. Technical Service had no response, and days later, Customer Service asked if I wanted a refund or if I wanted to try again (?!) |
Yes, should have fine backing and service with Vinshine. Also, not unheard of for runs of certain parts to be defective, mass production here. Modular design of Harmony makes repairs easy, just as @standardmodel found. Before judging reliability let the things live in field for at least a while.
So, finally inserted Musetec 006 into system, I have to say the 006 lives in different realm from my Musetec 005 and Harmony. Resolution/transparency on a scale above. Still, I'd easily choose Harmony over 005, Harmony has a more relaxed presentation in NOS mode than either of the Sabre chip dacs. 00l6 DEMANDS attention, Harmony lets you choose. Presentations are important for source components, many will choose the relaxed over the hyper detailed, in any case Harmony doesn't lack detail as it can easily draw you in. Harmony still a very nice dac in my book.
Now I saw an interesting take on youtube the other day, face off between Harmony and MSB (can't recall the model), Harmony didn't embarrass itself against this far more expensive dac. They preferred the Harmony with Aurender via USB vs Hifi Rose via I2S. |
@sns Thanks for your nice write up of your impressions of the Harmony incl vs the Musetecs. A few comments from my experience that may be of interest to you or others: I’ve found high quality USB sounds terrific, better than I2S I’ve tried, and scales further with changes to USB cables and even vibration damping. I’m using a chain of USB regens incl an externally clocked LHY UIP which I’ve previously compared to the Innuous PhoenixUSB (which is awesome BTW a different class, the UIP wasn’t embarrassed as it is very good for its price & the ext clock closed the gap a fair bit) - and and a much cheaper AliX unit both employing the latest gen ADuM USB isolator chips. With all due respect to Weng-fai who has suggested the Harmony’s internal USB isolation should limit the effect of USB regens etc I’ve found it to be very sensitive to improved USB quality which is consistent with what the YouTuber you refer recently found - the Harmony DAC sounded better via USB from a Hifi Rose 130 than I2S from same and Aurender USB better again. Handily beats my Gustard U18 via I2S even when the U18 has the benefit of the LHY feeding it. I’ve also messed with various clock options using I2S, LAiV internal, U18 internal, U18 external and even though the latter was a bit of an improvement over LAiV internal (U18 internal last) USB trumped both by a good margin. A more expansive and timbrally rich sound. Secondly, and I appreciate this may not be your or everyone’s cup of tea, nor a requirement to get the Harmony sounding great, but using the LAiV in NOS mode and oversampling externally in HQplayer (SincMx my preferred oversampling filter for the time being) produced the best sound in my system. Rich, natural but with more detail, micro-dynamics. And lastly I’ve managed to eke a good bit more dynamic and soundstage scale and decay length, as well as reducing residual glare and increasing midrange palpability a touch, from tweaks like vibration damping with good footers and an fo.q sheet on top (the aesthetics, I know!) along with chassis grounding. I’ve a bit of experience damping components with milled aluminum enclosures and have found they respond enthusiastically to this.. may be a function of their high rigidity. |
