New company with a new product. There are several "professional" reviews out there, but not much consumer input here or elsewhere. Those that have been using now for over a month, what are your thoughts? What were you using previously and how does it compare?
knock on wood. Stand by what I said, hope you are right and I am wrong. Not sure where you are getting your data on ownership and failures. Couple of forums is not a valid comparison. Enjoy your DAC and keep a fire extinguisher close by.
@tkrtrb125Modern electronic devices have a very low probability of starting fires as the failure modes are designed to be rather uneventful. You have a far higher probability starting a fire with tube gear (just from the tubes producing heat alone) than a device based on modern surface mount components failing. I’ve repaired my share of PCBs following failures to have zero cares about this...
If you’re kept up at night about a DAC causing a fire, might as well remove the stove, furnace and electrical wiring in your home as those are listed as the top causes of residential fires by the National Fire Protection Association.
What do you expect for $2700, Harmony build quality looks okay at the price. Certainly its not full size enclosure, so everything compressed to some extent.
So, there are a few instances of input board issues, I'd like to know what percentage of Harmony are having this issue. And should we expect more failures over time? Issue may be heat related, compressed physical size of unit is a consideration. Now to the good, input board looks to be pretty easy to replace, modular design, I'd have no issues diy, but then I'm seasoned in modding,
No doubt reliability a factor in determining ultimate quality of any component, these failures may or may not turn out to be a major issue. I assume Laiv did their due diligence in evaluating reliability, but manufacturer can only test so many units. Also interested to know if it is one particular input causing the issue.
What lots of guys greatly overlook is the build quality , from my experiences and through audio clubs I have gone to that take the cover off and look under the hood
the New Denafrips gear from what others that own it the New Engineering team
at Denafrips is really good I heard the new Terminator 15 it sounded great in a Big audio system their best dac to date and was like 45lbs and 2 sections with mu metal separating the power supplies , the little guy 18 lb Pontus 15 also have dual transformers ,they call it a Baby terminator was very good ,at $2100 nothing was close in its price class and proffered it to the Harmony which is not even close on build quality the pontus had 2 floors ,bottom for the huge power supplies and big transformers and a ton of high quality capacitors from Japan .up top dual precision clocks and FPGA buffers and a few other things I didnot understand .they are discontinuing the Venus 12, because the pontus is that close ,now a new more expensive Venus 15 coming out soon , that good news for the buyer ,competition.
I have heard the Harmony dac several times with Holo springs 3 and Lampi Amber 4 .I can say without reservation the New Denafrips 15 punched way above its $2100:price point it was not only musical but had great dynamics and bass control
more so then the dacs heard above for less monies. ,the Lampi Amber4 was the meatiest having tubes but lacked slam and a bit of inner detail , heard with the Iris12 Ddc using I2S gave it a added bit of image depth and detail , we tried the older Hermes ddc on the harmony , Holo springs and Pontus 15 I felt naturalness was only better as-well as every aspect of the music, the new Hermes 12 is much better one guy said That has one but didnot want to take his out of his system which was not cool. I may buy one now, just make sure the pin out on the I2S - hdmi cable matches, wireworld I2S cables seem to be popular and match the pS audio protocol.
A Farrari is a great car but if it has design,reliabity issues what good is that ?
remember Microsoft , great new operating system was great but have to work the bugs out ,That is why is why you run proto types ! if they went with a larger
case and dual transformers power supplies and regulators better stability
but at a higher build cost . I owned a Audio store for over a decade
and saw everything including digital from the mid 80s to today it has come a long way , nothing is perfect ,but some issues are preventable.
My favorite dac Best Buy under$12k is still the T+A 200 dac,preamp, which I Donot own . I have decades in audio and mod loudspeakers ,and have had many things upgraded, parts quality I know well, just look compare Apples to Apples in other brands and build quality,many people forget this very important aspect. the harmony dac should have used separate transformers and power supplies, that is for example for the Digital to Analog conversion ,then to try to squeeze transformer taps all in one like a integrated amp.vs separates ,this is why monoblocks have much better isolation and Sonic purity and ,better bass punch for 1 example.
@pynkfloydd knock on wood. Stand by what I said, hope you are right and I am wrong. Not sure where you are getting your data on ownership and failures. Couple of forums is not a valid comparison. Enjoy your DAC and keep a fire extinguisher close by.
@tkrtrb125What data are you using to back this claim? So far, I've only seen 2 failures out of an estimated few hundred owners (including myself) reporting overwhelmingly positive experiences across various forums. I've owned the Harmony since launch and hadn't had a single hiccup, despite using it almost daily.
That's an extremely low failure rate. Check out a new product launch from a major company like Samsung or even Nvidia to compare. I actually went through 3 returns on a Samsung TV a few years ago that had the same defects before giving up. Nvidia literally had meltdowns and fires due to their connector design. I've since bought another Samsung and they no longer have the issue, but the point is that failures (especially with electronics) are common and expected regardless of the manufacturer or product, which is why warranties exist.
Laiv gives a 3 year warranty and is very responsive. My credit card doubles that and the DAC itself sounds wonderful.
Your argument is that a ~1% failure rate makes it a bad product that should be avoided? That's insane.
I just purchased Harmony, based on reviews, usb implementation in this dac and R2R dacs in general, I2S input is necessary for best performance. To this end I'll implement either Musician Phoenix or Denafrips Gaia DDC with high quality HDMI cable in order to maximize performance.
I'll be comparing to my Musetec 005, new Musetec 006 coming in same time as Harmony. I'm interested in how these Sabre chip dacs compare to R2R. Some claim Sabre chip dacs not 'natural' sound, I've had many Sabre chip dacs, lack of natural timbre, tonality is not a universal trait of these dacs in my experience.
With the DDC I'll also have chance to compare I2S vs. USB inputs on the Musetec dacs, Sabre dacs reportedly not as sensitive to clocking as R2R.
My long held assumption is R2R dacs in general not as resolving, transparent as Sabre chip.
@soixI am not being harsh, QC is not optimized if they are getting faulty boards . As @jayctoy said they may sound good but not reliable. Being responsive is their cooperate responsibility and nothing less should be expected. I maybe throwing the baby out with the bath water but heck the L1011 was a great airplane and Lockheed was responsive after a few crashed due to quality and serviceability issues. This is my opinion and we will see how it comes out in the wash, regardless of the reviews, and I have had the opportunity to hear one, and based on reliability issues it is not a good DAC in my book.
with the issues LAiV is having it cannot be a very good DAC.
@tkrtrb125 That’s not a fair conclusion at all. This is a new product, and it’s not at all unheard of that any new product can have an unforeseen issue. The key is how the company handles it, and in this case LAiV seems to be very responsive in fixing the problem quickly if it arises. Almost all owners/reviewers have been very impressed with its performance especially for the price, which strongly indicates it is indeed “a very good DAC.”
I was purchaser number nine of the LAiV Harmony. My input board has died. I’m not the first with this problem. It appears there has been a quality problem of some sort. Response from LAiV was within hours with a promise for a new board. I’ll follow up with my experience.
Until it expired, I have been very impressed with the DAC.
According to Hans’ rating scale, the Cyan 2 seems like a sweet deal but a no-frills, barebones product. With no buttons or remote control, I consider it the poor man’s May. More relevantly, it offers true NOS but lacks an OS option. However, you can still do oversampling using software like HQPlayer if that’s something you’re craving.
The LAIV is a very good dac but in several respects I feel the Denafrips New 15
is a bit better in several areas especially low, midBass for it has Large Dual power supplies and much higher end Evos capacitors ,he power supplies not just shared ,and depth of image a bit better this too maybe do to the power supplies ,leading edge the LAIV is a hair better in imaging ,but the 15 th has 2 modes non oversampling and nos, your tweeters character would determine which mode to use .the LAIV being $800 more ,if you throw in another $400 you can have the Hermes 12 Reclocker which then makes nothing in its price class this good .this reclocker I find once you put it in your system your dac just is not as clear and defined without it . The Denafrips Hermes is a bargain at $1200, at our audio gatherings ithe Pontus 15 and Hermes combo beat every dac in its price class and easilly beat the Venus 12 pretty soundly,as well as Holo springs 3. if you have $3200 to spend and use the preferred I2S -hdmi connection .
@campo007 Thanks - the Aries S1 with ext PS looks pretty sweet indeed - probably the streamer to beat at that price level and above methinks, had been aware of the highly rated G2.2 and G1.1 but hadn’t caught up on the newer S1.. just watched Hans’ review. The ability to act as a DDC for other digital inputs is further - and rare - value add.
@campo007cheers for sharing your impressions. Suspect a few more more hours would have narrowed the gap a bit but how much, fair enough acting swiftly. What source were/are you feeding em both with? Btw not surprised to hear re the macro dynamics delta especially, more expensive DAC with separately housed multiple linear PS, this came across a little in the Virtualhifi comparison vid.
@soixwhile the Harmony and the May share a beautiful natural timbre, the May is more micro and macro dynamic. The soundstage is much wider and the sound is more robust.
I wish I had the disposable money for the May. Plus, once I upgrade to the May, I might need to upgrade all my other gears to fully reveal what it’s capable of. Another dilemma...
These days you could not judge the SQ based on the price. For example, Chord Dave that costs $14k, 2.5 times higher than May KTE, does it mean 2.5 times better. Definitely nay. Google it and you could see the reviews mixed...
@campo007unfortunately for the group - no. But for me yes.
No, this is all about you. You made an informed decision by going through the trouble of procuring and comparing. That was a smart move. I’m just surprised by how quickly you acted—it suggests that the disparity between Harmony and May is so obvious that it swayed your decision. Nevertheless, the outcome aligns with what I had researched before. Congratulation.
I’m not saying the Harmony was bad. I think for the price it’s great. It was much better than my R26. But it falls short compared to what the May offers in my system.
@campo007 Congrats on finding an even more satisfying DAC. What aspects of the May’s performance made you choose it over the Harmony?
I had the opportunity to buy a Holo May 3 KTE and I jumped at it. And if I can be completely honest, it’s an amazing DAC. I have since sold the Harmony.
I sold the Harmony with only 40 odd hours on it. I know will be not looked upon favourably for that, with people saying I still haven’t heard the Laiv at its best. They may be right. But I can tell you, the May is many steps ahead of the Harmony. That’s me being polite.
I’m not saying the Harmony was bad. I think for the price it’s great. It was much better than my R26. But it falls short compared to what the May offers in my system.
@kereruThanks for clarifying "scales". Also, good to know about UIP USB as I have only been targeting Streamers with I2S capabilities for future purchase.
@audiostick Scales a lot.. upwards in performance… = improves or benefits prorportionately from, is quite sensitive to… a high quality source - is all I meant. Experimentation with the quality of power and signal cables for and between the UIP and another USB isolator upstream of the UIP, along with vibrafion damping and better chassis grounding of the UIP, is all very audible in improvements to the Harmony’s sound. So it is far from being source agnostic/indifferent for USB at least, feed it the highest quality USB source you can and it’ll reward you. My use of I2S has been more limited as the DDCs I tried to date didn’t sound as good as USB from the UIP, but same seems to be true from what experimentation I’ve done there.
Back to the Harmony, the LAiV scales a lot with a high quality source in my case an LHY UIP USB regenerator. By way of reference, a guy over at Headfi compared it to the Iris and found it outperformed it in his setup, preferred UIP USB direct to DAC to even UIP USB > IRIS > I2S > DAC. This corresponds to my experience vs the Gustard U18 and SU6 where I found the same. Lots of different paths to a great sound.
A Pontus with an Iris DDC is a killer combination. I'm still running a 3 year old Pontus II with I2S to an Iris DDC.....total cost just a tad over $2,100 invested. Not the last word in detail, but really really good in most areas. Enjoyable, fun, easy to listen too, great soundstage and imaging.....just no flaws.
I've been really surprised that I've upgraded most everything else (speakers, preamp, solid state amp, tube amp, cables), and I have not felt the need to rush out to replace the Pontus/Iris combo. I of course know that I will, but the Pontus has performed admirably even while moving up into the solid "Mid fi" category....and I still enjoy listening to it daily
Wig the pontus 2 my wife has and Iris ddc , my audio buddy 2 towns over has the pontus 12th the 15th on all their gear is now a generation better with these new engineers ,when Alvin left he took one of Denafrips engineers ,for the harmony which is a good dac , the pontus has non oversampling,and over sampling
which is good it gives you solid choices this new dac much better resolution ,then the 12th anniversary which was a bit better, this 15 model is a big jump up with the Iris 12 ddc added,now
best inner detail I have heard under $3k instruments have much more depth and dimension ,a drum head you can hear more of the interplay and Macro details
buying a reclocker is s no brainer it cleans the signal before it goes into the dac ,the Hermes better still but $1300. for $550: for the Newer Iris 12 it is clearly better then my wife’s gen 2 model. I2S is built into the newer Iris 12 .Wireworld Hdmi uses the same pin out as PS audio does . Just look inside on these 15 series dacs vs the previous 12 th. Pretty apparent , my unit still needs breakin ,but my friends has 400 hours ,I bought a older terminator 2 from my brother that is a solid dac , the new one in another league yet to hear it though Very good technologies in digital are progressing rapidly.
What I can say is 2 of their new engineers Cal poly tech , anything going forwards from 15 on dual bigger transformers 80vac dual higher precision clocks As well as low noise regulators smoothing capacitors much higher quality Evox capacitors from Japan the big white ones ,used in the Terminator , If you want warmer you go with the nos but Tom if you want a bit more leading edge precision and still slightly warm the oversampling , Buch better depth of image, vs the harmony I feel better balanced especially with nos or no nos , with the Big silver gold transformers
better bass control, asa bonus , what I found is my wife’s Iris 12th DDC reclocker
is much better then the previous gen and cleans the signal up very nicely runn8ng a hdmi -I2S cable to the dac , for less monies then the harmony ,it is now I feel as good as the Venus 12, now Denafrips had no choice but to design a new Venus 15 coming out in a month. In a Ca. Audio group my brother met one of the new engineers born in China and great at what he does in digital.
Can you provide a little more detail on the Pontus II 15th Anniversary verses the other Dac comparisons? Richer sounding can be bad if it's closed in and dark sounding...
@campo007That means you'll need to put on 7-8 hours of music every day within the 30-day window if you're considering a return. Thanks for sharing your feedback. I believe Harmony will be an amazing DAC once it fully opens up.
@lanx0003right now with just 10 hours on it, I’d say the Harmony has the same width as the R26. The depth is still a little flat, but it is showing signs of opening up.
The unit still sounds new and constrained. The top end still needs to open up. Dynamics are also a little flat.
It’s showing some signs of being amazing. The bass is deep and impactful. The midrange is sweet and beautiful, much sweeter than a fully run in R26. Acoustic instruments sound spot on, very natural.
I’ll report back once it’s has 100-200 hours on it.
These are my first impressions 10 hours in. Early days yet.
Just received the Harmony. Wow! Fresh out of the box it's certainly better than my Gustard R26. Bass goes deeper with more impact. The midrange is glorious.
Can't wait to see where this thing goes.
I have ve 2-3 audio systems at any given time , my wife is finally on board I go to all the events and audio clubs and let’s me buy Audio on her behalf since I have 40 years + as an Audiophile .
Being semi retired I am going to be settling down soon
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