KEF, ProAc, Monitor Audio and others
A 3D stage is only one single part of sound. Sound consists of many other parts. There are enough people who also can create a 3D stage. The difference is that we stopped selling and creating 2d sound. This is our personal choice. When you want to understand why the sound and stage of your system is what you hear. There is only one option to understand it. This is that you understand exactly all the different properties of each individual part in your system, the acoustics and the other parts who influence the sound and stage negatively. Because each different way in trial and error will not make you able to guide and control your system. This is needed to create the sound and stage you would like to own. |
Dave is talking from his world in audio. So his ideas are based on his insight and knowledge. We have met many people at home who spend a lot of money on acoustic panels and they still had many issues. With our Statement Audio Pro-measurement the results are so much more effective. You always will need amps, sources and speakers who can create a holographic 3D stage well. Most products do not own the right techniques and properties to create it. And a person who want to sell Isoacoustics footers to create a 3D stage is insane. We are Stillpoints dealer and we love them. And they can make a 3D stage even better. But it will not create a 3D stage when the system has not the right properties. |
Sfoth, I have over 30 years professional system setup experience, while working at two of the biggest A/V stores in NYC Sound by Singer and Innovative Audio, and then 14 years at my own shop. Bo is just plain crazy, any good system when setup properly can recreate a three dimensional sound stage. Height has more to do with the physical size of a loudspeaker. The keys to createing a 3d system is to make sure your speakers are positioned correctly, reflections are addressed, power conditioning, power cables and vibration isolation is used. To help create a 3d image, Acoustic System Resonators work wonders so do Shakti Hologpraphs. Make sure the speakers are three to five feet from the back wall if possible. A new trick is the Isoacoustics footers which help in image focus and bass tightness. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
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Also, bo1972, what electronics do you need to get your 3D? I have an Audio Research VT 130SE amp and LS22 pre amp. Do you have any idea whether the Monitor Audio PL300ii produce that effect with my equipment (or does the room and speaker placement make the difference)? As Schubert said, what other speakers would you suggest? My price range is up to around $15,000 (although I'm going to hear the Paradigm Persona 5 this week and that's a little more). |
bo1972 , As a audiopile for 50 years I agree with all you say . Can you mention a few brands(if there are any) that get 3d’ish at no more than $6000 new or used besides Monitor ? Not that I won’t buy Monitor, I had a MA5 I loved back in the 70’s when they came into USA . I live in a condo where near-field is all that is possible and listen to Classical Music . Heavy on symphonic . And have been to thousands of concerts, a local dealer uses me for a "ear" on classical music and I did sell it for 3 years . |
In Munic the Paradigm showed
a full flatt 2D stage.
Stage depth is a difficult part which should
be there to listen to a realistic stage. You only can understand audio when you understand both sound and music. The sound you hear at home of your own system is being created by all the different properties of each individual part in your system and the acoustics and all other parts who have a negative influence on the sound and stage. When you cannot think in properties your system will be created bt trial and error. This is the same as russian roulette. There is no foundation on why you made the combination you choose. Audio by using the right properties is superior in endresult compared to any audio system created by trial and error. The facts proof over and over again that trial and error systems are incomplete. Each single audio system whai is incomplete will create a much lower level in emotion and intensity. Because all the different properties of sound can influence our emotion. Each system what can reveal more information and emotion will be chosen by each single person. Because this is how our emotion works. |
I am working in sound&vision almost 20 years. And I have done thousands of tests. In real you can hear in a 3D spectrum. This means you can hear sound in depth and even in height. Most audio products onlu are able to create a lot less than 1 metre of stage depth. This means it will make the stage less deep and wide. It is as voices and instruments are crushed togheter. The best audio products are able to create a stunning level in a 3D holographic stage. And this also comes a lot closer than how in real we experience music and sound. I brought many people since 2009 from 2D to 3D sound. It had a hude influence on how often they use their systems. The most used words we hear is that people experience their systems as addictive. And 3D system does a lot with your human emotion. Sound becomes a lot more intimate and intense when you audition it in a 3D spectrum. You are pulled into the music. It brings you closer to the music Words are use a lot of our clienst who listen first to a 2D system are; it creates more distance between you and the music. And it is a lot less tangible and apparant. All Kef demoes we auditioned in shops and shows all proved to create a 2D stage. Beside that many Blade and Reference demoes showed a too much distortion in the middel freq. It created a more harsh sound even at a modest volume level. When you connect a 2D source or amp to a 3D loudspeaker the endresults still gives you a 2D stage. When you audition a high level in 3D stage, all instrumentd and voices become so much more tabgible and stand more free in space. In real volices and instruments are very direct and apparant. When I did shootouts bewteen 2D audio vs 3D audio all people choose for the 3D sound. That is why I stopped selling any kind of 2D audio in 2009. Even women get excited when you demo music in a 3D stage. But most men come home with a 2D system where voices and instruments are not played tangible and apparant from eachother. The emotion is inside the music. You only can reveal all the details and emotion when a loudspeaker can reveal all the information of the recording. Most products and brands miss essential parts on which sound is founded. It depends which amp your dealer will bring you. Because when it is a 2D amp and you also use a 2D source you will listen to a dissabled audio system. You need the right properties so you can reach all the different talents and properties the Monitor Audio possesses. |
Sorry but I don't understand the comments about 2D vs. 3D. I am not a techie--just a music lover who is trying to decide which speakers to buy for my two channel system. I don't even know what 3D audio is and I'm not planning to change my system other than the speakers. I just want natural sounding speakers with a realistic sound stage, great imaging, decent bass,the ability to hear and pinpoint solo instruments in classical music and to hear the breadth and width and depth of an entire orchestra as if you are in the concert hall. My current short list is the KEF Reference 3, Monitor Audio PL300ii, and Paradigm Persona 3 and 5. Haven't yet heard the 5 but will do so later this week. There are so many others and I appreciate the suggestions but I've ruled some out either because I didn't like them as well or because they're not available for audition in my area. I've reached the point where I have 3 or 4 good choices, I don't want to drag this on forever and it's a matter of deciding which I like the best. I'll see how I like the Paradigm Persona 5 and whether it's really worth 70% more than the 3. I may take the Monitor Audio dealer up on his offer to deliver the floor model to my house and let me listen for a week but I don't think it's fair to do this if I am more interested in another speaker. Also, I may take another listen to the KEFS. It will depend on whether I like the Paradigms enough to make a decision or whether it's still a tough call and I need to revisit the others. I'm also wondering whether, with the CES a month away, I should wait to see if there are any new announcements. Thanks everyone for your help! |
We sell Monitor Audio Platinum II as well. It is really funny to see how limited most people in audio are. You need to understand first the full potential of a loudspeaker. You have to know all the properties before you can choose the right stuff and cables. The facts proof over and over again that most Monitor Audio Platinum speakers are demoed with 2D audio. It is the same as when you put a Ford engine in a Ferrari. I will be a totally different experience. People hear in real in a 3D spectrum. So it not even more than normal when an audiosystem delivers a 3D spectrum. The AMT tweeter needs the right cables and equipment. Many pictures proof that people have no idea how to adapt a system to any loudspeaker. For AMT tweeters you need a different approach as well. But when you use it the right way it is so much better than a ribbontweeter. But....you need to understand how they work the best way. |
Does 4d involve eating something? 4th dimension universes? I've been around pro studio stuff since the late 60s (my guitar licks in an airline commercial haunted me for years) and I'm amazed at how talented engineers got great sound from Heils and NS10s and the like. Whew...For my own home recording studio needs I've used more pleasant sounding monitors but I get it…Auratones anybody? Whew again... |
Dekay you miss my point, the NS 10M were everywhere because of one partiuclar engineer who endorsed them. I am not saying they are good, just the contrary, the reason they were used was an endorsement deal between Bob Clearmountain who was one of the biggest and most prominant mastering engineers in the 70's with the thinking that if your mix sounded good on NS 10M then they would sound good on car stereos and other devices. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Interesting comment "much of the music we listen to was mastered on them." well actually no, there was a time in the early ninties that some studios were using Proacs. Most of the popular recordings rock and jazz were and are mastered on ATC, and if you look at ATC's website you will see just how many people are using ATC professionally and they have been the dominant force in studio's for the last 40 years, sure there are others competiting in this market, ADAM, Myer and many others. The Yamaha NS 10M was the dominant monitor in the 1970's thanks to Bob Clearmountain's endorsement and by today's standards the NS 10M was a horribily colored speaker/ As per Proac vs Monitor vs KEF these are all great speakers and differ in tems of how they present the infomation. As per Proac's playing the music and sound effortless doing it all three of these speakers will do the same thing. It will come down to Ribbon tweeter, Proac, which tend to be extremely detailed, vs AMT, Monitor Audio's, which have a slightly more laid back top end compared to a true Ribbon vs the seemless quality of having all drivers made out of the same material in the KEF, plus the soundstaging capabilites and imaging that come from a true point source. We would say this is a hard choice all these speakers are excellent comes doesn to presentation, price, styling. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
"The KEF’s are more precise with a more well defined sound stage then the Monitors, the Monitors are a bit softer sounding with the new AMT drivers, also the KEF’s are a more slender cabinet also with the KEF’s you have a bit of room control with the different ports. This proofs that you don’t know all the properties of sound. I will lend a pair of Kef Ref 3 for a shootout against the Platinum II series. And I will video it with Sony professional. And I also will make an english version of it. When you use the right amps, cables, sources, conditioners and cables it is very easy to outperform any Kef Reference and Blade speaker. I will proof it on facts. I dare each single person or company for a shootout with Kef. We can create a stage depth of far over 5 metres with Monitor Audio Platinum. Beside this we can create a stunning level in diversity in height of all voices and instruments. All the demoes (many) we auditioned with the Kef Reference and Blade proved that the stage height of voices and instruments were almost on the same height. The sage depth was always less than 1 metre. We can proof this by using many different songs. And we can proof it over and over again. The great thing about audio is that the most convincing and realistic sound and stage will always win. Because the sound and stage what you can hear will always speak the truth! |
When you would be aware of all the different properties sound is being formed at, you would have a totally different opinion about the speakers you would like and even would want to buy. I have done thousands of test in almost 20 years. This is where I earn my money with. I do not see it as work or hobby. It goes so much further than that. Most products and even brands are not capable of creating all the different properties sound is being formed at. The great thing about music and sound is that all the different properties of it can influence our emotion. And that is why people will always prefer that sound and stage what owns the most different properties. When you want to reveal all the information of the recording you need an audio system what is able to reveal all the information of the recording. But........most products and brands in audio are incomplete in properties and this is even based on facts. This means you cannot add what is missing. When a property or different properties are missing the sound and stage will always be incomplete. When you listen to most systems the facts proof again that in almost all situations they are incomplete. Even when you listen to loudspeakers and brands in loudspeakers you will hear that most are incomplete. I test each individual product first on DNA. Because I need to know which properties are there. When you create audio based on properties you come so much closer to how music sounds in real. Beside this it also proofs that the level in emotion and intensity is so much higher when a systems can reveal all the different properties of sound. When you test both the Kef Referende and even Blade on stage depth, you will hear that the stage is rather flat and undeep. It even misses more properties on which sound is being formed at. I did many shootouts between a 2D and a 3D system. All people prefered a 3D stage. This is very easy to explain. Our hearing can hear sound in a 3D spectrum. That is why it is insane that over 99% of all sold audio systems are still 2D. In our world 2D is when a system or speaker can build up less than 1 metre of stage depth. First you need to know all the properties of the speaker you are interested at. You need the right amps, sources, conditioners and cables to create all the different properties sound exist of. But each single person on this planet will always choose that system what can reveal all the different properties of which sound and music are formed at. They always use the words that it is more intense, emotional and attractive to listen to. Most even call it addictive and you can see this back in the level in use of an audio system. Many say often; we can’t stop listening. This is being created by the fact that when music influences our emotion more, it creates also a different demand. That is why we will give demoes in 2018 with real conservatorium students to explain how instruments and voices sounds in real. And what real 3D sound is and how it influecnes our emotion. We also want to show people how small and direct both voices and instruments sounds in dimension. We call it intimate focus of voices and instruments. So we can proof that working by Tru-Fi is superior in realism and most of all that the emotion compared to any audio system what has been created by trial and error is so much more intense. |
I have the ProAc D48R on order. I liked the ProAc sound when I auditioned various loudspeakers. The Spendors D7/D9s are also beautiful sounding loudspeakers. I liked the KEF Ref 3 at AXPONA 2015, but was not moved by the sound. I believe it was very neutral. I blame the very large room they were in, for that. If you choose Dynaudio, make sure you have a powerful (and high quality) amp. |
Brownsf, Great to see you took our original advice to go out and listen and seek out some of the best modern loudspeakers. We are a KEF dealer and the Ref 3 are superb and are often overlooked by many audiophiles who feel that the larger speaker companies don't build as good a product as the smaller more boutique companies. The KEF's are more precise with a more well defined sound stage then the Monitors, the Monitors are a bit softer sounding with the new AMT drivers, also the KEF's are a more slender cabinet also with the KEF's you have a bit of room control with the different ports. Other great loudspeakers to look at are the Legacy's if you can find them. Personally I think the KEF's are a better overall design then the Proacs. The new Paradigm Persona's are also quite amazing and do some things better then the Kef Ref 3 they are a bit more expensive for a comparable model which would be the Persona 5F, they are stunning looking and have an incredibly holographic sound stage with very deep tight bass, the other issue is that with the high tech Beryilium drivers they have great resolution than other similar systems. You should try to determine what kind of sound you like more warm and rich sounding, the Vandersteen, Legacy camp, or the higher resolution camp, KEF, Proac, Vivid, Rahido. Good luck and happy listening. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
I can't consider the Quatro CT for two reasons-- no place to hear then within 400 miles and the power cords present a problem. As you say, I still have some great options. Still can't find a place to hear the KEF Reference 5 but I may call KEF for help. Liking the KEF Reference 3, Proacs and possibly the Montor Audio PL300II at this point. |
I've auditioned The KEF Ref 3, the Proac D48R, the Vandersteen Treo CT and the Vandersteen Quatro CT. It is difficult to imagine you wouldn't be happy with any of these choices. I chose the Vandersteen Quatro CT. If you like the Treo CT you will probably love the Quatro as it is essentially a Treo with built in subwoofers with a very flexible ability to tune them to your room. The Quatro is the only Vandersteen above the Treo that is still within your price range. Both the KEF and the Proacs are great as well...just slightly different flavors. |
I have Revels Performas and they are very good, their Studio line are excellent in that range, but honestly I listened to the KEF Reference 5 at same dealer and if I had the money that's what I'd buy, they sounded incredible even at very high volumes the sound didn't change. Ive also heard Dynaudio and they sounded very good, very smooth and natural, great midrange and tweeter. I thought the KEF sounded best of all of them, even Revel Ultimate Studio which are rated Class A+ and one of the best all time speakers. |
Thanks for for the advice. I haven't heard the Wilson Benesch but there is a local dealer so I may go there. Spendor and Harbeth are hard to find in my area. The Audio Vector SR6 also was suggested but I haven't heard it. Would like to hear the KEF Reference 5 but also unable to find it at a dealer, even though there are several KEF dealers in my area. With the Liszts, it seemed more like I was hearing two speakers rather than a live performance. Hearing them right after the KEF Reference 3 really increased my appreciation of the KEFS. My wife also commented that she could hear individual instruments in an orchestral piece much better with the KEF. I've heard the Dynaudio and it was good but the KEF is still at the top of my list. I will listen to the Monitor Audio PL300ii again, try to locate the KEF 5 and possibly go hear the Wilson Benesch. I may have to pass on Harbeth and Spendor because of unavailability. |
Wilson Benesch Vector will fit in your price range will a small discount or used. This or the Proac D-48r would be my choices from your list. http://wilson-benesch.com/vector-floor-standing-loudspeaker/ |
After you do some tire kickin’ give Harbeth a listen! http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/harbeth-monitor-402-loudspeaker/ |
