Is there a point of diminished returns with amps and Harbeth 30.1s?

@jjss49 

I agree. 

CD318, perhaps start a new thread on blind listening test with level matched amps if you are interested? You may attract more interest from people who are keen on the subject instead of posting it here on this thread.

@whipsaw

i think we are better off not wasting our breath

published studies, measurements, ’verification’

sheesh... missing the point of what this pursuit is about it seems

enjoy the tunes, and onwards...

 A straight wire with gain as Quad's Peter Walker once said. Didn't he also claim that he didn't need to listen to his amps? The measurements alone told him everything he needed to know.

This is a view that most amplifier designers disagree with, not to mention the vast majority of audiophiles. 

Measurements do not tell the whole story.

@whipsaw,

Perhaps I should have been clearer in stating that no one has been able to consistently identify sonic differences between 2 level matched solid state (sand) amps. 

With valve amps all bets are off, though even there it's been noticed that better measuring valve amps tend to sonically converge, not diverge, with their solid state counterparts. A straight wire with gain as Quad's Peter Walker once said. Didn't he also claim that he didn't need to listen to his amps? The measurements alone told him everything he needed to know.

And then there was the infamous Bob Carver Stereophile challenge which surely anyone with any amplifier interest should be familiar with.

https://www.bobcarvercorp.com/carver-challenge



@troidelover1499,

Fair enough, but don't you think such a groundbreaking discovery is worthy of a public repitition?

Just imagine how many magazine editors and reviewers would come racing to plant laurels around the head of this much welcomed harbinger of glad tidings?

Of course no designer of any digital product, cable or amplifier has ever claimed or even attempted to demonstrate the sonic superiority of their product, let alone subject it to a blind listening test.

I wonder why?

So why not go ahead, and make their day if you can?  I think we'd all be curious as to what exactly these so called claimed differences actually amount to.

@cd318

@jjss49 ,

I was referring of course to published tests, ones that could be verified.

If you could successfully repeat your experiment I’m sure there would be an awful lot of interested parties willing to assist you in your groundbreaking demonstration.

No end of reviewers, magazines, websites would be very pleased to have just a morsel of evidence to back up their printed proclamations regarding sonic differences of amplifiers.

Heck, they might even start conducting their own.

Why not consider publicly sharing your groundbreaking research for others benefit?

I am following this thread with some interest.  It seems to me @jjss49 just did.  I am not sure if it is groundbreaking in any sense, but I think he just stated his findings from his comparison in his posting.

I too have the Orchid DAC and have tried several brand tubes in it.  Each having it's own sound signature.  Vibration isolation, cables and power conditioning would probably have a greater effect than a different amp of similar power output using all the same existing other components.
If I really had $5000 dollars to spend and being primarily a digital listener replacing the Orchid would be the biggest improvement for the dollar.

@cd318

The problem with your perspective on this issue, one that, in my view, is shared by a good percentage of the HUG members, is that it is too rigid.

Few would argue that anecdotal experiences are as broadly compelling as carefully executed, published studies, but to essentially lump them all together, and so easily dismiss them, reflects a rather closed mind.

To use just one of many examples of why I believe that to be the case, consider a poster on the Audio Science Review known as "DonH56". He is described as a "Major Contributor" and "Technical Expert", and his background, as displayed on his profile, is:

Design and now validation electrical engineer, focused on high-speed (GHz+) analog and mixed-signal circuits. Did a fair amount of audio design in my youth, including tube and SS preamps and power amps, and a servo-controlled subwoofer back when they were new and few.

I was principal trumpet of the Pikes Peak Philharmonic orchestra, have played in a few jazz and big bands around the area, led the trumpets for the Tri-Lakes Music Association for many years, done a few "pro" gigs, and sometimes play at church.

So, given that the ASR is likely the most broadly skeptical, and science/test-based audio forum in the world, it is safe to say that this member is, to put it mildly, no fool.

I noticed one of his posts on a thread related to the very topic that we are discussing, and have excerpted some bits, and linked to it below.

My assertion is usually weasel-worded as "most SS amps operated within their linear region driving most typical speakers will sound the same". Lots of ambiguity because I have not listened to, let alone measured, a large sample of amps connected to a similarly large sample of speakers any time recently. Treat all that follows as opinion.

***

I suspect few of us would have a problem distinguishing a SS amp from a tube amp. The differences, measured and heard, are large enough to be clearly audible on most speakers.

***

The gain structure and noise floor of the amp is in play as well; one of things I (many people) found years ago was, in blind testing, an amp with a higher noise floor was readily distinguished from another amp. We did a test with two tape (yes, 1/2" tape at that time) loops playing the same music selections using a couple of big SS amps (have forgotten which, Krell, Threshold, and Levinson were in the store at that time, among others). The speakers I’ve forgotten but I think were either Magnepan MG-20’s or B&W 801’s ca. 1982’ish. We might have run with both speakers, too long for me to recall. We inserted a 2 s silence between the selections on one tape, and went straight from one selection to another on the other. The selections were a mix of music but did not have very quiet (silent) passages. Gain matched the channels, natch. With the 2 s gaps, people easily picked out the "noisier" amp, and commented how it "filled in" gaps between piano notes, drum strikes, and such. Without the gaps, nobody was able to tell the two amps apart. IIRC the noisier one was class A but had fairly low SNR, like 80 - 90 dB unweighted, whilst the other amp was something like 100+ dB.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/double-blind-tests-did-show-amplifiers-to...

Note how he reports that the difference between how subjects were able to distinguish between the two amps with two seconds of silence between the selections, but not without. That alone provides a potentially important insight into why the results of "classic" blind-tests may not necessarily tell the whole story.

This person is an electrical engineer who has designed and built amplifiers, and a professional musician to top it off. Yet while he is broadly in agreement with those who claim that amps sound the same, his experiences have led him to the conclusion that it is not always the case.

Not so easily dismissed, in my view, and there are many other, similar examples of compelling anecdotes to be found.

@jjss49 ,

I was referring of course to published tests, ones that could be verified.

If you could successfully repeat your experiment I'm sure there would be an awful lot of interested parties willing to assist you in your groundbreaking demonstration.

No end of reviewers, magazines, websites would be very pleased to have just a morsel of evidence to back up their printed proclamations regarding sonic differences of amplifiers.

Heck, they might even start conducting their own.

Why not consider publicly sharing your groundbreaking research for others benefit? 

As far as I know there has not been a single example of a blind listening test where differences between cables, digital sources or even amplifiers were identified.

@cd318 can evidently type... but he can’t read... amazing how that can be... usually even rudimentary literacy works in both input and output modes

i just cited in a my earlier post that i did a rigorous a-b-c test of power amps on super 5’s, and for myself, dispelled this kool-aid/nonsense

seriously...🙈🙉🙊

@whipsaw,

As far as I know there has not been a single example of a blind listening test where differences between cables, digital sources or even amplifiers were identified.

Even in the best case scenario, subjectivists et al might want to acknowledge this rather sobering fact.

Not even one case??

Perhaps there are some good reasons why Toole, Olive and co only bothered blind testing loudspeakers at the National Research Council (NRC) of Canada in Ottawa, Ontario?

I agree that this is potentially problematic, but to be fair, such tests are not about preferences, but differences. In other words, can the listener simply and consistently distinguish between components, irrespective of which they may prefer.

@whipsaw is exactly correct

a-b tests, done correctly, first establishes that a difference can be reliably and consistently be heard, then comes an assessment of the nature of differences, and then, perhaps, a judgement about preference might be made ... one step at a time

a-b tests don’t replace longer term listening in fully assessing gear and their sonic attributes -- but is an important tool in the tool kit, so to speak

there are some who profess that all amps, all cables, all connections, sound the same... thus a proper a-b test is needed to dispel (or confirm) these notions

You have a great classic vintage british speaker that has been made in one form or another for decades any equipment upgrade will yield a great benefit with them there is no best gear with them and dollars does not mean better with them great components matter the most no matter what the type or vintage.

@cd318

This seems to be the main problem the anti blind listening test brigade have.

Whoa there, big fella. You were well off-base in your original post re: the Harbeth User Group, as I noted above, and now you're sounding even more like you have been sipping the HUG Kool-Aid.

The suggestion that those who believe that there are audible differences between amps, and/or cables, etc., are necessarily against blind testing is ludicrous.

As I mentioned in a previous post, this is not something that is easy to set up, at least properly. So, there is a rather meaningful difference between being "anti blind test" and being unable to easily set up, or take part in them.

Here is an interesting thread featuring a highly regarded member of the Audio Science Review forum. Note both how complex it can be to set up, and record all of the relevant measurements, and that he did hear a difference between the two amps.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ab-x-testing-of-power-amplifiers.20464/

I run my C7s with either a 40 watt tube amp(Aric Audio) or a 100 watt ss(Modright).The ss has a sense of ease when listening loudly but I can't choose a favorite really. The speakers respond very favorably to different footers and speaker cables. They readily show any changes upstream.A recent happy discovery is they seem to love large gauge speaker cables (10+).
Mr. Shaw seems sure that any decent 50 watt amp and 14 gauge lamp cord can't be beat.I joined HUG looking forward to discussing how to squeeze the best performance out of these boxes.Not happening on that forum:-)
And yes, they are warm and fuzzy but they can rock without getting shrill.A couple of subs and all set.

@whipsaw ,

"In other words, can the listener simply and consistently distinguish between components, irrespective of which they may prefer."


This seems to be the main problem the anti blind listening test brigade have.

No one has regularly managed to distinguish sonic differences between amps, cables and digital sources.

Therein lies their problem.

I’ve never really understand the usefulness of blind tests. Do people actually know what they prefer in a short listening A-B session? 

I agree that this is potentially problematic, but to be fair, such tests are not about preferences, but differences. In other words, can the listener simply and consistently distinguish between components, irrespective of which they may prefer.

But while the science suggests that humans have very short auditory memory, I'm with you on the value of listening to longer stretches of music in order to make confident judgments about differences in components.

I had listened to a couple of Harbeth models some time back, and my impression is that they are definitely in the warm and fuzzy camp. It is such a subjective thing, and different people have widely varying preferences for sure. They do play women singer voices very nicely.  But to me I prefer a bit more clarity and impact in the sound of my system.

The amplifier thread on HUG (!) is interesting if only for the remarkably *wide* range of amps that owners are using with Harbeths.

I think the company went over the edge in the issuing first of the Anniversary series and then the XD series, both of which entailed very large price increases, one on top of the other.  I'm just glad I snagged my (regular) 40.2's when I did.

I’ve never really understand the usefulness of blind tests. Do people actually know what they prefer in a short listening A-B session? It takes me a week of listening to determine if I like the sound of a component, unless it’s truly horrible or completely mismatched. I’ve fallen in love with many things upon first listen…. only to want to hang myself for a stupid purchase a week later. 

first i will say harbeths are excellent speakers, even great speakers

that said, the man behind the company is a first rate capitalist (no shame in that), uses many modern tools of marketing to maximize economics of his venture... including setting up a ’user group’ that effectively sings praises of his products (and quashes negative comments by and large, as well as useful discussions of ancillary gear)... he personally ’moderates’ the group, and posts actively as a participant, so it is heavy hand employed there

as for the ’offer’ of a blind a/b test, it would have been one that he controls, so grains of salt taken there

finally, a few years back, i have personally (with help from my son and a good hifi bud) done a blind a-b-c test, which took some doing, with my son doing the switching and db level match, using two sacd tracks - comparing an audio research vt-50 tube amp, audio research 100.2 solid state unit, and a w4s class d st-500, running into harbeth shl5+’s ... we could pick out which amp 6 out of 6... treble detail and imaging was different, bass tightness was different, midrange articulation was different...

bottom line, excellent speakers, pedantic and self serving owner, the user group is kool aid drinkers only (dealers, inexperienced or lazy fanboys), other discriminating, experienced, intellectually honest/curious folks usually find the b-s factor too high to stomach

Thanks @chayro! I’m plenty old and have been doing this for so long that I do know that. Also work tangential to the music business (feature film editor) and I have conversations with mixers and engineers all the time about how we all hear differently!

@dhcod - Just remember that it doesn’t matter what anyone else hears, claims to hear or claims to tell you what you should hear. All that matters is what you hear in your home, in your system. Then you can relax and listen to beautiful music while others are too fired up trying to push their views onto you. I was a conservatory-trained musician in my youth and one thing I learned is not to assume someone else cannot hear something that you can’t.

This is an interesting issue when you think about it. It’s tough to conceptualize a business creating a public forum that includes people complaining about their products. I would think somewhere in the forum rules it probably states that matters such as those should be handled directly between the customer and the company. Or at least I’d understand if those were the defacto rules.

Yes that’s rather true as most companies would want to protect their image and reputation. However, there’s less transparency with such practices especially when the complaints are genuine. The member who once posted issues with his new C7ES3 was a friend. That post he made on the forum was removed by the moderator and I am not sure if he was banned from posting on the forum for couple of days or weeks. There were others who experienced the same, and just lately another case resurfaced as the owner highlighted his plight on a British forum.

I have forgotten if some users have been banned for posting some issues they experience with their new speakers. Issues such as glue marks on the main driver and defects on cabinet etc. 

This is an interesting issue when you think about it. It’s tough to conceptualize a business creating a public forum that includes people complaining about their products. I would think somewhere in the forum rules it probably states that matters such as those should be handled directly between the customer and the company. Or at least I’d understand if those were the defacto rules.

Alan Shaw has long welcomed any debate on his opinions regarding cables and amps.

He discourages it to the extent the forum was split into two sections, one for technical discussion based on facts and science while the other section was for subjective discussion on amplifiers or all things audio not endorsed by Harbeth. Your contribution may be welcomed at first, but after a while they will be shot down by the moderator and the cohorts if they don’t coincide with the values that the clan preaches. As Whipsaw had suggested above, your opinion or post will mostly be disparaged.

If you go a step further, the post which you made will be modified by the moderators or completely removed. I have forgotten if some users have been banned for posting few issues they experience with their new speakers. Issues such as glue marks on the main driver and defects on cabinet etc.

The forum used to be a free view as a non-member can read the content of the forum. It now requires a member to log on to the forum just to enter the forum. You wouldn’t be able to gain access to the content on the Harbeth site before you become a member.

Alan Shaw has long welcomed any debate on his opinions regarding cables and amps.

This is nonsense. He largely discourages such debate, and considers his views to be facts, not opinions. And the condescension towards those who think otherwise is often palpable.

In fact he once even offered a pair of his top of the range M40s to anyone that would be willing to undergo an unsighted amplifier comparison test. 

Level matched of course.

Unsurprisingly, despite the endless online amplifier hullabaloo / advertising / promotions etc there were no takers.

I'd need to see the actual challenge, but the way that you present it is likely to be disingenuous at best. Shaw, and those who share his views, have been forced to admit that amplifiers can indeed sound different, but argue that it would only be true of those which produced a certain (unspecified) amount of distortion.

They scoff at the likes of Nelson Pass, who is fully transparent about his choice to "voice" at least some of his amps with a certain amount of Second order harmonics, because they are not as neutral as possible. 

Anyone who claims that all amplifiers sound the same is, to put it kindly, on very shaky ground.

One final point: level-matched AB-X testing is undoubtedly a very valuable tool, but in practical terms, very difficult to achieve. Two (or more) amps, using exactly the same speakers, interconnects, etc.?

Good luck with that.

I heard a comparison of two EL34 tube amps that happen to use the 30.2 speakers in the comparison.  It was fairly easy to hear the differences between the two amps that were similar in design.  That is what one would expect with any decent pair of speakers--differences in other components would be revealed by the speaker.  I don't see why anyone would want to claim that their speakers are so crude as to obscure any differences in upstream components.  

Completely agree yet this discussion is not about ‘routine’ amplifiers. 

Alan Shaw has long welcomed any debate on his opinions regarding cables and amps. 

In fact he once even offered a pair of his top of the range M40s to anyone that would be willing to undergo an unsighted amplifier comparison test.

Level matched of course. 

Unsurprisingly, despite the endless online amplifier hullabaloo / advertising / promotions etc there were no takers.

There were no takers.

I would suggest the dear reader should let that sink in to their long term memory for easy recall the next time they come across some casually penned blowhard review extolling the unique quasi mystical properties of another routine amplifier.

I would not recommend extremely unbalanced allocation of funds for any given type of component because the results will not be optimal.  But, that is not to say that there is a limitation on the ability to hear an  improvement in a source component or amplifiers because of limitations is a speaker as good as the 30.1s; they are plenty good for hearing the qualities of any amplifier.  I've heard impressive demonstrations of $50,000 amplifiers playing very modest speakers; differences between the amps being compared were very easy to hear even if the speakers were "modest."  Sometimes one does not know how good a particular speaker is until it is played with an amp that it is not commonly paired with because they components are supposedly not in the same class.

can’t pay attention to alan shaw and his blanket ’truisms’ on amps cabling stands etc for his harbeth speakers, as good speakers as they are...

Yes, that’s true. The leader has the support of his cohorts.. It’s a tight-knit clan on the Harbeth forum as anyone who doesn’t share the same ideas or philosophies will usually be cast aside like an unwanted child. Many have left the forum after they find the iron-fist style approach of moderation to be a bit intimidating.

I’m not sure if things have changed now as AS has been recommending Hegel amps for his speakers several years ago. I have not been to the HUG for 10 years now and have no desire to do so in the future.

agree 100% w @chayro

can’t pay attention to alan shaw and his blanket ’truisms’ on amps cabling stands etc for his harbeth speakers, as good speakers as they are...

he just wants you to spend as much as you can on the speakers, don’t pay much attention and just make do with the rest...

cabling and amps, stands too, to a somewhat lesser extent, matter...

All good responses here. My 2 cents worth. If you are happy with the sound quality of the system, just stick with what you have. There will always be something out there which will sound different and/or better than the current gear that you have in your system, whether it’s the amp, DAC or any other component.

Attempt to upgrade or change the amp only if there’s something bothering you ie. some aspects of the sound that you wish to address. If you have unlimited funds and/or are bored and want to have some fun, you can always choose to tinker with the system by swapping amps on the 30.1.

I’m rather familiar with Harbeth speakers and have listened to the M30.1 but do not own it. They respond well to amp, source and cable change. The 30.1s are rather inefficient and require a powerful amp to provide the current and drive.

Very logical and wise suggestion from @chayro . Little  (If any) risk involved. The Cable Company is an excellent resource for allowing the opportunity to hear and compare cables in one’s audio system. In some systems and with certain audio components, cables can provide very notable sonic improvement. If not, return them.
Charles

Very interesting perspective! Thanks. I will check out cable co and see what they have to loan. Certainly worth a try!

@dhcod - I absolutely hear what your are saying, but after trying some better cables with several Harbeth speakers and hearing the dramatic results, I think you are closing yourself off from a possible big upgrade. Your system is very nice and I’m sure well-tuned to your tastes. IMO, you should at least borrow a set of cables from the Cable Company and try them. This way you will know if the Ohno is the bottleneck. No other way. I think you might try the Purist Poseidons or the AU24s, as I have heard them both and they sound amazing with Harbeths. I have had systems where 10 gauge Beldens worked fine,, but others in which they left a lot to be desired. So that’s my opinion and the rest is up to you. Who knows, you may luck out and say the Ohnos are just as good and move on. Or you may find that the new cables brought sonic upgrades beyond what you thought.  

Thanks for the suggestion re: AU24s. I use the Audience Ohno already. While there may be a big difference, it would cost an arm and a leg because I need 5M runs. Seems like the best money is still to be spent on an amp.

I would see if the Cable Company has any more Audience AU24 show demos at 1/2 price. Excellent sound and very easy to work with.

FWIW I have used AU24E with my 30.1 all along, and have been quite happy.

I know you are asking about amps, but IMO, contrary to Alan Shaw's opinion, speaker cables make a big difference.  I've owned the M30s, SHL5s and P3s and I've found the right speaker cables to improve the sonics significantly.  I don't know what you're using now, but if you have to move the speakers often, I would see if the Cable Company has any more Audience AU24 show demos at 1/2 price.  Excellent sound and very easy to work with.  I also love Purist, but they are not the cables to be moving around on a regular basis.  Not that you can't, but they are kind of bulky compared to Audience. 

Had one. Hated it. Exactly the opposite of the sound I enjoy but that’s just my ears.

+1 for a new cartidge.  An Audio Technica AT ART9 XI for example.  

Suncoast audio has a new YouTube video up of the M30s being driven by Luxman’s new limited edition Integrated, and it sounds fabulous.  I understand the new integrated amp is similar to the 590.  Luxman and Harbeth are a great match.  I have the M40s with Luxman separates and love the combo.  But I’ve never heard Herron, so I couldn’t say if it would be an upgrade.

@dhcod  I have owned the M30.1s for a few months now, and I can certainly relate to why people fall in love with them. I have them set up in my home office driven by Raven Audio Blackhawk. A few weeks ago, I temporarily moved them to my media room (20x15) and hooked them up to the Luxman 590AXII to see how they perform. Let me tell you, it was a revelation! They actually sounded better than Sonus Faber Olympica 2 (now sold) driven by the same Luxman. They had a blacker background, even better midrange, and that 'singer in your room' feeling was more enhanced. The SF sounded thin by comparison, although it had more bass slam to be fair.

So based on my experience, the 30.1s will most definitely scale with amplification up to $10k. Anything north of 10k, I'm not sure ... yet :)

There is always a point of diminishing return on spending more for pretty much anything. For those speakers.you probably hit it for most once you get past $5k for an amp I would estimate.

i would agree with @mapman on his comment above, in particular for normal sized listening rooms

There is always a point of diminishing return on spending more for pretty much anything. For those speakers.you probably hit it for most once you get past $5k for an amp I would estimate.

You can get meaningful improvement by getting a better amp regardless of the speakers you are using.  The question is whether the improvement is worth the price.  With speakers as good as the 30.1, I think that it would be worthwhile to spend a significant amount on an amp of your liking.  I know many Harbeth fans like high power, but, I’ve heard, and liked these speakers with 50 or so watts of tube power.  I think they sound good with less power than that, so I would look for quality, not necessarily quantity (I.e., watts).

I don’t know what $5,000 buys on the used market.  I particularly liked these speakers with the Synthesis A100 amp and their A40 amp (both tube amps).

I worship the ML1.1s but our 700 sq ft loft is just too small!

My suggestion save more money and get that LAMM ML1.1 .
with same manufacturer you got better synergy and full tube amp Lush .
but is hot though, But worth it .