is it possible to make digital audio sound like vintage vinyl

sam here when i made this post i was referring to a very specific sound that vinyl creates and i don’t care what kind of turntable setup you have there is an indefinable sound and that’s what i was trying to create. no i don’t think i’m there yet however i will keep trying and posting my before/after results to get feedback from the experts. i suppose if i was less nieve i would just accept the facts and move on however i can’t help but believe i will one day hit on the magic combination friends.

So really you just want to define the program that will recreate the indefinable. Magic, indeed.

Keep at it! If nothing else, it is a lot of fun, and if you come up with a formula that improves your listening enjoyment, then you have accomplished something and perhaps others will enjoy it as well.

guitarsam OP29 posts05-19-2020 6:52pmsam here when i made this post i was referring to a very specific sound that vinyl creates and i don’t care what kind of turntable setup you have there is an indefinable sound and that’s what i was trying to create. no i don’t think i’m there yet however i will keep trying and posting my before/after results to get feedback from the experts. i suppose if i was less nieve i would just accept the facts and move on however i can’t help but believe i will one day hit on the magic combination friends.

guitarsam OP
is it possible to make digital audio sound like vintage vinyl

You can get it to sound much closer to older recorded vinyl richer sound, especially with early digital that were remastered to give that shocking pseudo ping pong stereo effect.

The output of the dac or cdp you use will be more than >100db channel separation, you’ll need to "kill this down" with a left to right bleed passive/or active network to "mimic" vinyl’s best of 35db in the midrange, and best 12db at highs and almost mono at lows.

Here is the best channel separation a Lyra Dorian cartridge can do https://ibb.co/Vtm8bNx this if it’s done to a digital output will richen things up especially at the extremes as they get mono’ized for want of a better word.


Cheers George

Use a good tube preamp, plus compander like DBX-3BX

plus compander like DBX-3BX

Sorry but they sound shocking, sound goes through 2 million or was that 3 million of the worst 1970’s opamps ever made.
http://www.ka-electronics.com/images/jpg/3BX.JPG

Cheers George.

No.

sam here,something else i noticed that i believe is hampering my efforts at making digital audio sound more like vintage vinyl              https://postimg.cc/LJQZYNF2 

and even when you lower the volume on the digital file the compression remains?

for some reason when the audio has more dynamic range as with vintage vinyl the sound stage is more open with less distortion.

 i believe if i can remove the digital compression this will get me closer to the sound of vintage vinyl.

i have tried numerous denoisers and declippers however they seem to make the audio sound worse? or at best different like somethings missing?

after doing some experimenting i stumbled upon a free foobar2000 filter called IIR dsp plugin. it has a preset called allpass  and when i run the digital audio through the allpass filter the digital compression is gone.

i'm not sure what the intended purpose of this filter is? the difference in the before/after sound quality is amazing here are my settings for the filter. https://postimg.cc/jCbxQmTv

i had to use replay gain to prevent clipping due to the increase in dynamic range. to check that my results are correct i ran another test using the worst loudness war offender i could find. metallica death magnetic. https://postimg.cc/bSvSYwzY

before waveform: https://postimg.cc/VdKvL8T5

allpass filter applied: https://postimg.cc/NLYRKQNx

A few things digital generally doesn’t do nearly as well as analog. Air and squeaky sounds and applause. Oh, and raindrops.

And another thing. Digital actually doesn’t do bass very well, analog is juicy like Lucy. Harmonically a lot more realistic. Your preferences may vary.

Actually, a good hi-res digital recording of an LP does capture much of vinyl's LF juice and tonality. 

sam here again and this time i made an impulse file for processing digital audio from an 8-track tape from 1978 100% analog not sure if any of that sound was transferred to the digital album. due to the placebo effect i’m not sure if it made any difference please listen to before/after and let me know if you can hear any difference when the 8-track impulse filter i made was applied to sample (2) and if so did i make it sound worse?

original. http://u.pc.cd/wDF

impulse. http://u.pc.cd/Ag2ctalK

vinyl (2006) http://u.pc.cd/hs7otalK

Digital>vintage....

Pack up everything and lock up in a closet.

In 20 years, open closet, set up everything as before.

Compare with 2030 equipment.

Viola'.

The difference ought to be obvious.

Cheers, J

"Patience may a virtue, but it's also a PIA."

..'cuse, 2040 equipment...likely subcutaneous.

Be sure to pay the monthly installment....I fear the 'late charge' may be really unpleasant....;)

Why would you want to do that ?

If you must, add some crackle and pop and voila. 

Mentioned this in a previous post.
Weiss DAC 501 & 502.
DSP - Vinyl Emulation Mode
"Get that special sonic character of a record player based playback chain."

DSP - Vinyl Emulation Mode

No where does it say what’s done to do it, my guess is to mimic the left to right separation that vinyl does so poorly compared to digital.

What I said earlier in this thread
"Here is the best channel separation a Lyra Dorian cartridge can do https://ibb.co/Vtm8bNx this if it’s done to a dac's output will richen things up, especially at the frequency extremes as they get mono’ized for want of a better word."

Cheers George

Ah ok... You want much less dynamic and separation. You want wow and flutter and bad channel separation. Not enough, you want physical angle errors, surface noise, crackles and stylus / groove wear...

Vinyl is not that bad using premium recording / turntable / etc but for me, it can’t touch a good recording played back on a good DAC.  But that's only my taste.  For those who love vinyl, it's ok and i'm glad for you!  Not trying to start a flame war!!!

As for your "vinyl sound" question: Almost anything is possible with digital. Those who say that it’s not possible just don’t know digital, math and DSP...

You apply transfer function using DSP. You can equalize,dephase, inset crackle and whatever you want with DSP.

https://www.izotope.com/en/products/vinyl.html

I have a similar question,  is it possible to make CD sound like vinyl?

I have a similar question, is it possible to make CD sound like vinyl?

That’s what I did for the older cd’s.
It’s to "ruin" the 120db of channel separation that cd has by bleeding left and right together has from 20hz to 20khz and bring it’s channel separation down to only 30db in the mids, and 10db!!!! at each end (highs and lows) that a vinyl cartridge on a vinyl can do. https://ibb.co/Vtm8bNx

And it makes those old L/R ping pong sounding cd’s that are taken from the master (no vinyl involved) far more listenable like the vinyl does, because it’s the vinyl cartridge that ruins the channel separation that’s on the master in the first place.

Cheers George

Many do not realize. When there was only vinyl?  Not everyone was always happy with it.  Only a few records out of an entire collection may have sounded excellent. When digital came out I began hearing drums and bass like I never could on records.  Being a musician I understood how real instruments can sound. Vinyl always frustrated me in that area because it blurred the distinctions. Digital on a good system is more true to what real instruments sound like.

*...the WayBack machine settles down...J approaches Nipper....*

C'mon, boy!  We won't tell them the run-out grooves sounded like yowling cats...*scrathes behind ears*...

*Nipper rises, stretches, and happily bounds into the WB....*

I'll bet you're good and hungry...it's been way too long....

*...the WB bounds back to the future...*

Sound "like"? Yes. Sound exactly like? No

Can top top solid state sound "like" a great tube amp? Yes. Sound exactly like? No


Brian Lucey - Mastering Engineer
www.magicgardenmastering.com

Not all vinyl sounds good! Not all digital sounds good. It depends on a lot of things, namely more $$$ for analog equipment before it starts sounding really good. A good phono preamp is going to cost you thousands, cartridge thousands, tonearm thousands, turntable thousands, accessories hundreds/thousands. Digital many thousands for a good dac.
IME, it will cost you At least 2-3x more money for an analog setup than an equivalent Redbook digital setup, equal not better. Then when you can do hires/dsd/MQA, then digital surpasses analog and you will need to spend much more money on an analog setup to compare to hires digital

rbstehno, but this is not a thread of which is better, it is a thread about achieving a vinyl "like" sound which the op has a personal preference for, and which many have a personal preference for. There may even be some poorly understood underlying technical issues why vinyl (likely the channel separation issue) is more pleasing to some.

@guitarsam, yes quite easy. since storage is really inexpensive these days, I would toss FLAC and move towards compression free WAV. I have a small library of 24/96 WAV files. If you contact me off line, will be happy to snail mail you a stick full of samples.

best

Yes and no. Our DAC will out perform most analog systems but once you hear our phono, all bests are off,

It seems to me that the goal isn't to make digital sound like vinyl.The goal is to make digital sound like real instruments and human voices.

If by “real” you in the recording real then I agree. But not “real real” instruments and voices.

XM Radio tries by adding scratchy DJ sounds at the beginning of their programs.

too too much time on your hands.?

In my opinion it is possible to record the sound from your analogue set-up in order to reproduce it using a digital system. You can get a sound reproduction close to the analogue output if some equipment and software is used.
In my case, for the analogue, I like the sound resulting from the Dynavector DV505 arm + DL103R (sapphire stylus and paratrace diamond from Expert Stylus) + F-117 Nighthawk (phono pre-amp) + LINN LK85 amplifier.
For several reasons I also want to get digital copies of my vinyl's.
In order to recover the signal to do a digital copy I use the Apogee Duet2 24/96 A/D converter. For that purpose, I connect the Apogee device to my computer and record the digital signal using the Izotope RX7 software in 96 kHz, 24 bits. The resulting files can be de-noised from clicks, cracks, hum, etc, automatically (batch processing).
Izotope RX7 is the best software to perform the task. It is a professional software at a reasonable price. For this task you do not need the advanced version.
To reproduce the sound I stream the files to a LINN Sneaky streamer connected to the LK85. The sound is extremely close to the original sound. But note that I use the same analogue amplifier.
All that needs a lot of wire connections. I use the LINN KAIRN pre-amplifier as the connection hub.
Once you have some practice the process is not very time consuming. Of course cleaning the vinyl take some time but helps to reduce the noise of the record (for the cleaning-up I use the Loricraft RPC3 cleaning machine). This is the first step. Then you have to add meta-data to the digital files (this can be done with RX7). When you are used to, you need about 10 mn by LP to perform these tasks.I already digitized about 2000 of my 5000 LP's library.In my opinion the most important actors in the chain are the arm, the cartridge the phono-amp and the A/D converter.

Instruments sound, in my honest opinion, much more "real" on a well recorded digital. You may not like it, but it is more "real".

tony195417 posts05-22-2020 10:24amIt seems to me that the goal isn't to make digital sound like vinyl.The goal is to make digital sound like real instruments and human voices.

Have you tried candling your ears? 🕯

Don't you have some cables to direct? This is not a square peg thread.

The problem here is why do you want anything to sound like Vintage vinyl? Don’t get me wrong, I’m deeply committed to vinyl, but I want my vinyl to sound as close to state of the art as my budget permits. And I think I’ve come very close. My digital front end is, I think, state of the art. And I can honestly say it doesn’t merely sound great “for digital”- it just sounds great! 

To make digital sound like vinyl, just digitize an LP.

Short of that, you have to make your limited resolution 24 bit files into infinite (0 samples) resolution files. I don’t think that’s possible.

Let’s assume your vinyl rig is at least B+ quality or higher (TT, arm, cartridge all pretty good)--and it’s optimally set up--and if it’s a moving coil or low-output moving iron cart, the step-up device is also at least B+ quality. That’s a lot of assumptions, complexity being one of the unavoidable facts of life of good vinyl.

Can you make digital sound more like that? A very qualified YES. Qualified because no digital device will ever match the slightly phasey vinyl sound, complete with surface noise (from imperfect channel separation, boulder being dragged through grooves, etc). But you actually can push digital to be somewhat warmer, more spacious, and more satisfying tonally & timbrally. Easiest way is to get a well designed/constructed NOS (non-oversampling) DAC. A well designed/constructed multibit DAC will probably suffice, too.

My NOS DAC is MHDT Labs Orchid, which includes a tube buffer circuit (I swapped the stock tube for a recommended new-old-stock tube). I no longer hear any of the digital nasties I thought were baked into digital back in the days I had delta-sigma DACs.

In all fairness, there are any number of overbuilt, uber expensive delta-sigma DACs that people rave about as being highly musical and un-digital in sound. I just can’t see spending >$15K to get to more or less the same more-like-analog place my $1,100 NOS DAC does.

Did I mention how good digital cassettes sound? The best of both worlds. Great SNR and dynamic range and more analog than digital. Almost as analog as Pure analog Cassettes but no air I’m afraid. 🤗

sam here and let me say that i hate the side effects of vintage vinyl (1970's) however the sound is alive . i have not tried an expensive dac and that might be an answer?

the fact that vinyl can't be brick wall compressed for the loudness wars has a lot to do with vinyl sounding alive? 

 i downloaded a digital rip of a vintage vinyl record with a song on that record that represents the exact sound i'm looking for. not the song itself but the tone and the sound stage here is the hi-res vinyl rip.
http://u.pc.cd/xUYrtalK  now here is the commercial digital download of the same song. http://u.pc.cd/QzrctalK   the vinyl version has a dynamic range (12) digital version (5) that has to effect the sound quality? the digital version is unlistenable to my ears.

guitarsam OP
sam here and let me say that i hate the side effects of vintage vinyl (1970’s) however the sound is alive . i have not tried an expensive dac and that might be an answer?

the fact that vinyl can’t be brick wall compressed for the loudness wars has a lot to do with vinyl sounding alive?

>>>>I’m afraid the loudness wars has affected vinyl too. The overly aggressive compression occurs during mastering so no format or media is exempt. So when you examine the Unofficial Dynamic Range database you’ll find that vinyl oft suffers the same fate as CD, also SACD, BLU-RAY, hi res and even SHM-CD from Japan. Having said that the one media that has largely escaped the loudness wars is cassettes.

thanks geoffkait for the info. they say 99% of new vinyl is cut from the cd master at 16/44 so it looks like new vinyl is fake vinyl? my question is why? there is no other reason for the loudness wars except it's done on purpose and world class producers do as there told? take the money and run

thanks geoffkait for the info. they say 99% of new vinyl is cut from the cd master at 16/44 so it looks like new vinyl is fake vinyl? my question is why? there is no other reason for the loudness wars except it’s done on purpose and world class producers do as there told? take the money and run

few recordings are recorded and mastered at 16/44 to begin with. minimum 24/44 or 24/48 and most are at least 24/88 or 24/96.

so where did you get the idea that 99% are cut from a CD master? maybe at the basic level of music production when vinyl is an afterthought to the album. i suppose it depends on the type of music you listen to. some of it might not matter......at.....all. but the percentage of CD masters for vinyl is much less than 99%. 

it’s trivial to send the higher rez file.

the loudness mastering choices are independent of bit depth and sampling rate.

sam here and the fact is record companies no longer make a separate master for vinyl duplication claiming it cost too much money? almost all vintage vinyl re-issues are cut from the cd master with brick wall compression for the loudness wars making the new vinyl not any better than the digital version! geoffkait called it for the way it is. let’s face the facts. have you ever compared a vintage vinyl record to the remastered version? 

sam here and the fact is record companies no longer make a separate master for vinyl duplication claiming it cost too much money? almost all vintage vinyl re-issues are cut from the cd master with brick wall compression for the loudness wars making the new vinyl not any better than the digital version! geoffkait called it for the way it is. let’s face the facts. have you ever compared a vintage vinyl record to the remastered version?

i have 8000 records, and maybe 500 where i have an original pressing and a remaster. why would i own a CD sourced remaster? as none of those are that way. i’ve compared a remaster and original pressing thousands of times. in many of these cases i personally know the person who supervises the remaster. i know how it’s done.

zero cases of a CD source. period.

i’ve purchased 50-60 new vinyl records this year and 2 or 3 were CD sourced. tell us about your experience. your claim is wrong in my experience.

i agree that there are segments of music where the label or artist just want to be able to say they have a vinyl version, and another segment of those where the pressing house only does CD sourced vinyl. but generalizing that situation to all vinyl is just.......ignorant.

you start the thread by asking about how to make digital like vintage vinyl, and now claim expertise on sources for vinyl.

The correct term is "brickwall limiting".  Compression and limiting are related, but distinct.

sam here and i'm not an expert on vinyl however  Regardless of what you may have been told, most vinyl these days is cut directly from a CD production master – and it’s been that way for years.
https://productionadvice.co.uk/vinyl-mastering/
owning that much vinyl mikelavigne i'm sure you must be aware of the difference in sound quality between new vinyl and original pressing of the same album. there is way too much evidence to prove that new vinyl is over compressed with much lower dynamic range than an original pressing? and i believe this is on purpose.

well, sam.....one guy in the UK does not speak for the world of vinyl mastering. certainly not for where i get my vinyl. but if you just read his summary....here;

Summary

The short version is – there’s no requirement to get a separate vinyl master done, but it’s an option if you’d like to. The main advantage will be to get a cleaner, more “dynamic” sound – but a separate master is only mandatory if your CD master is “loudness war” loud.

The most cost-effective way to get a great-sounding release on vinyl is simply to send the hi-res master files – making sure that they aren’t over-cooked – directly to the cutting engineer. They will choose the best settings to get good results from the vinyl format based on the sound of your material, as part of the normal price. For a well-mastered album, it’s simply a case of choosing the correct level and perhaps a few minor tweaks – no extra mastering is required.

And in fact, it works backwards, too ! If you master with a great vinyl release in mind (using a VU meter?) then the chances are your music will sound superb on all the most advanced 21st-century formats, as well.

he states clearly that the most cost effective way to get a great sounding release is to send a......drum roll please.......hi-rez master directly to the cutting engineer. his audience is pop producers and recorders.

he did not say ’CD’.

and this is just one guy with an opinion.