is it possible to make digital audio sound like vintage vinyl

@cleeds

You’d be surprised! I can make hi-res digital copies of an LP - played back using a very "high level vinyl playback system" - that are indistinguishable from the original. No special skills are required.

I know that can be a disturbing thought; it was a discovery I found difficult to accept. But it’s true. Feel free to try it for yourself.

no, i would not be at all surprised.

i have over 1000 2xdsd rips of my own vinyl, none of which measure up to a direct comparison of my vinyl. and many hundreds of high rez tape transfers from the same tape as my vinyl.

i enjoy those digital transfers all the time. they can be and mostly are excellent. but when i pull out my vinyl it’s another level when compared directly. happy to demonstrate this for anyone interested.

my digital source is top level as i do mostly listen to digital. it's really fine. but.......the best of vinyl is just another thing.

it all depends on your reference for how vintage vinyl should sound.

--if your vintage vinyl reference is some computer algorithm process or pro audio tool.......then sure.

if you actually have a high level vinyl playback system and actual vintage vinyl to directly compare it to......then hell no! you are not going to make digital completely sound like that.

if you have not heard really great vintage vinyl......then your opinion does not count.

mostly.....subjective opinions about quality come down to the quality of references.

I’m not familiar with your system and have no reason to doubt what you say you hear.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615

Do you know what quality of LP playback renders a digital copy audibly inferior? In your opinion, where would digital have to improve to overcome that limitation?

for over 20 years i’ve been posting and talking about why the best vinyl sounds better than the best digital. what i find is unless i can get someone into my room and we can listen together it becomes such a circular discussion. then when we listen together; it’s like bringing a pencil to a gun fight. not even a knife. and that’s because really having a top level vinyl reference is not trivial. for my own self, i have chased digital music reproduction perfection with the same degree of commitment i’ve given to vinyl. and it’s got lot’s better over the years. but so has my vinyl improved too.

i’m not a techie. i have my own views of the components of what vinyl does better. a digital copy lacks the nuance and completeness of the music. it lacks capturing the ambiance and breath of the music. it can’t get the same musical weight, timbre, density and tonal complexity. it misses the sparkle and fire. it falls short in flow and energy projection. these things all are present in digital, just short by degrees. but these degrees bring vinyl across a threshold of realism digital cannot cross.

and unless i show you, i have no illusions you might change your mind. it’s an experiential thing.

i do think that converting music to numbers and back to analog that a degree of reality does get lost. and the analog tape or direct to disc technologies are able to preserve what the number crunching loses. not that analog recording is perfect. this is just what my ears seem to tell me.

IMHO digital would need a format created that does not yet exist to get to the level of vinyl. and really........digital is fully satisfying to me as it is. it’s only when someone drags this old idea out that we then do this familiar dance again. there is no music delivery market demand or commercial reason to create a new higher format.......a ’Holodeck’ sort of techie break-thru. maybe the movie or gaming or defense industries throw money at the question and something new gets born. like Bell Labs and telephones and later the computer age and how hifi rode the coattails of those techie break-thrus to where it has come.

follow the money.......and right now there is no pot of money to go after for a higher format.

One problem is see in your comparison Mike, is you have chosen a DAC that euphonically matches what you prefer in vinyl. For you, that is the best sound possible, but to make the most accurate comparison of digitized and played back vinyl, a DAC that is as analytical as possible would be the most faithful. Your DAC may be implementing "tricks" that create a very pleasing audio result, especially for those that prefer vinyl. However if you record vinyl and play is back on that DAC, the result is likely not as technically accurate as possible.

i have a hard time connecting the dots on your supposition. not sure the point you are making. i'd say that the general feedback on the MSB Select II is that it has a neutral presentation. 'tricks?' huh?

and obviously; dacs can't record vinyl; you need an ADC for that. MSB does not make an ADC. 

my result of vinyl being better is a 20 year experience, with multiple dacs, transports, and servers. as well as multiple turntables, arms, cartridges, and phono stages, as well as different rooms.

i've chased excellent digital performance all these years, and would happy to list the dacs i've used. 

Mike Lavigne has a nice digital system including MSB Select II.

My story is in the link.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/msb-select-dac-vs-vinyl

Thomas

hello Thomas,

thank you for the link to the story, which i did read. obviously, i think very highly of my MSB Select II and it is the best dac i have yet heard. and i’ve also invested in the Taiko Audio Extreme server, which takes the digital performance even higher. so i know just what this formidable product can do.

but.......sorry to say that the comparison in your story has a fatal flaw as evidence of digital equaling vinyl. the Reference Recordings Lp you used for that comparison, one i own and am very familiar with, is 176/24 sourced. i know this Dick Hyman ’In The Age of Swing’ very well as i have used the CD and HRx 24/176 file as a reference for years.

these 33 rpm and 45 rpm pressing from Reference Recordings for the last 10 years have all been digitally sourced. and mostly i find i prefer the digital 176/24 file to the vinyl, sometimes by quite a bit. the vinyl cannot add what the digital file missed. when i go to audio shows and see Marjorie from Reference Recordings, i always complain about this. here you have Prof. Johnson, one of the great recording engineers, who has a great mastering analog tape deck, not being willing to use the tapes for the Lps. really upsets me. my friend, Paul Stubblebine, does the vinyl masterings for these Lps.

it is hard to find an Lp and digital file from the same mic feed, yet both native analog and digital. and that is what you need ideally, but it’s easy to find a digital file and vinyl pressing from the same tape master, and when you do, the vinyl will sound better than the digital file almost 100% of the time.

i have 2000-3000 examples.

thanks geoffkait for the info. they say 99% of new vinyl is cut from the cd master at 16/44 so it looks like new vinyl is fake vinyl? my question is why? there is no other reason for the loudness wars except it’s done on purpose and world class producers do as there told? take the money and run

few recordings are recorded and mastered at 16/44 to begin with. minimum 24/44 or 24/48 and most are at least 24/88 or 24/96.

so where did you get the idea that 99% are cut from a CD master? maybe at the basic level of music production when vinyl is an afterthought to the album. i suppose it depends on the type of music you listen to. some of it might not matter......at.....all. but the percentage of CD masters for vinyl is much less than 99%. 

it’s trivial to send the higher rez file.

the loudness mastering choices are independent of bit depth and sampling rate.

sam here and the fact is record companies no longer make a separate master for vinyl duplication claiming it cost too much money? almost all vintage vinyl re-issues are cut from the cd master with brick wall compression for the loudness wars making the new vinyl not any better than the digital version! geoffkait called it for the way it is. let’s face the facts. have you ever compared a vintage vinyl record to the remastered version?

i have 8000 records, and maybe 500 where i have an original pressing and a remaster. why would i own a CD sourced remaster? as none of those are that way. i’ve compared a remaster and original pressing thousands of times. in many of these cases i personally know the person who supervises the remaster. i know how it’s done.

zero cases of a CD source. period.

i’ve purchased 50-60 new vinyl records this year and 2 or 3 were CD sourced. tell us about your experience. your claim is wrong in my experience.

i agree that there are segments of music where the label or artist just want to be able to say they have a vinyl version, and another segment of those where the pressing house only does CD sourced vinyl. but generalizing that situation to all vinyl is just.......ignorant.

you start the thread by asking about how to make digital like vintage vinyl, and now claim expertise on sources for vinyl.

well, sam.....one guy in the UK does not speak for the world of vinyl mastering. certainly not for where i get my vinyl. but if you just read his summary....here;

Summary

The short version is – there’s no requirement to get a separate vinyl master done, but it’s an option if you’d like to. The main advantage will be to get a cleaner, more “dynamic” sound – but a separate master is only mandatory if your CD master is “loudness war” loud.

The most cost-effective way to get a great-sounding release on vinyl is simply to send the hi-res master files – making sure that they aren’t over-cooked – directly to the cutting engineer. They will choose the best settings to get good results from the vinyl format based on the sound of your material, as part of the normal price. For a well-mastered album, it’s simply a case of choosing the correct level and perhaps a few minor tweaks – no extra mastering is required.

And in fact, it works backwards, too ! If you master with a great vinyl release in mind (using a VU meter?) then the chances are your music will sound superb on all the most advanced 21st-century formats, as well.

he states clearly that the most cost effective way to get a great sounding release is to send a......drum roll please.......hi-rez master directly to the cutting engineer. his audience is pop producers and recorders.

he did not say ’CD’.

and this is just one guy with an opinion.