"A review of the Legacy i-v7 amp (the same as the I-v4 Ultra except all channels hooked up). When he listened in stereo, I believe, he listened to the front channels in mono block mode. Read the review.....he liked it....however, it did not do everything as well as his reference amp.
An i.V7 amp is not the same as an i.V4 Ultra amp. They have same number of boards sure, but they are not configured the same. In the i.V4 Ultra, one board is used to drive one channel using the full capability of the board that is used to drive 2 separate channels in the 7-ch version (i.e. both sides of the board are used to drive a single channel with all other benefits noted on this and the other thread) plus (from what I'm told) various other improvements.
If I misunderstood your comment or I don't know enough about the guts of electronics in this hobby I enjoy, that's cool, I'm open to learning.
To the other part of your post,....send me an IM here with your contact info and we can get together by phone. I'd like to know the 13 improvements you propose and I'll find out what if anything has already been done by Legacy and assuming non-conflicting lists, I will give strong consideration to your mods either now if I can get assurance (from Legacy) that I'll keep my warranty, or on the day it runs out.
Frankly if you have real ways to take this amp that impresses me daily better, that will take it and refine it even further,....no b.s., I would be open to considering them.
"Thanks for being totally honest. My audio experience started as a child 66 years ago as a 2 year old child. The classical music radio station was playing all the time. Audio was my first understood language, since I said my first English words at age 3. I started the violin in school at age 9, although as an amateur I didn't make my debut until age 40, playing solo in the Mendelssohn violin concerto. My audiophile life started when I was 25, so my audio qualifications are based on many years of familiarity with live sound. I dabbled in recording, experimenting with various top condenser mikes. Like you, I learn much from random audio experiences anywhere. Although my expertise is classical music, one of the best live experiences I had was in the summer of 2005 in New Orleans just before Katrina at the Preservation Hall. A small unamped jazz band with piano played in a small cave of a room with 3 rows of audience benches. The sound cracked and snapped excitement. On vacations, I enjoy street performers and the bells of street cars. Anyone who says that they want to smooth out the sharp, brilliant natural sounds of reality is missing the boat and defiling the concept of high fidelity.
You are smart to enjoy your stock Legacy IV as it is. It is possible it is better than the stock Rouge Audio Studio N-10DM because of more refined parts, etc. Possibly the most important mod that Ric does is increase the input impedance from 38K ohms to 150K ohms. I am not a circuit engineer, but I would make an analogy that just as with moving coil cartridges, 47K ohms reveals more HF than loading down a cartridge way below at 100-1000 ohms. Advocates of loading down the cartridge say that many MC cartridges have HF ringing, so the ringing is reduced by loading down. All I know is that in my experience using various MC cartridges with various phono preamps, I hate the rolled off duller sound when the loading down is used. Ric specifically states that increasing the input impedance to 150K ohms sounds "way better."
Agree--don't break your back and bank account by trying to find a heavy expensive amp that is better than the Legacy IV."
@viber6 Great post,...thanks. Based on actual facts and experiences too,...somewhat of a rarity at times here on the 'gon I note. It's amazing to me that some are entirely comfortable to draw conclusions based upon conjecture, not actually putting their hands on an item and checking it out first hand but that's nothing new here.
When time and finances allow again (just did a number of power cord, digital cable and one pair of analog XLR upgrades in the last few months so laying low and enjoying what I've got) I might actually pick up a couple other amps and given them a shot. The problem is that until you live with amps (or anything else) long enough to break them in thoroughly and really put them through their paces, I believe that you cannot make a qualified judgement on any piece of gear, cable or speaker.
As an aside, I also grew up surrounded by music; big band, the jazz greats, classical etc,...in an environment with a father, aunt and grandparents that loved listening to recorded music and playing music with a father who loved to play live music immensely so grew up playing trumpet and piano just like he did (and loving every minute of it), big band, jazz ensemble, wind ensemble, orchestra some a lot of drum corp, and also played guitar.
Ric specifically states that increasing the input impedance to 150K ohms sounds "way better."
That's furphy. That is only true if it's input impedance was <10kohm and when if what's driving it, has a "high'ish >1kohm" output impedance, like tube pre or passive pre. But as said, it had 38kohm input impedance, and just about anything drives that, so it's a furphy.
There were only a dozen EVS 1200 amps made.....there is nothing to answer. There is one guy who preferred some $7K mono block tube amps on his modded Ulfberht's. Everyone else is happy. What I do know is that the stock IceEdge (Legacy type implementation) is not something I could live with. The mods (by the way, if you want to know more about them......just call me and I will describe every mod in detail to you) change/improve the sound a lot. However, knowing what is possible....there is no way the modded IceEdge is state of the art. There is always more.
I don't see any "refined" parts in the Legacy amp. The raising of the input impedance is just one of 13 things I do to the module. Many things I did to the module made more difference than raising the input impedance.
A review of the Legacy i-v7 amp (the same as the I-v4 Ultra except all channels hooked up). When he listened in stereo, I believe, he listened to the front channels in mono block mode. Read the review.....he liked it....however, it did not do everything as well as his reference amp.
dougeyjones, Around 1995, I experimented with various mike preamps using a few SS condenser mikes. I made a 1 min recording of my violin part in the opening of the Mendelssohn violin concerto for each combination. I tried to standardize my playing of each take, although of course I can't be sure each take was identical in my playing. The famed B&K 4011 cardioid SS mike was flat in freq response, but it was smooth and rounded like tubes. I tried Shure, Schoeps, AKG small diaphragm cardioid mikes, but my favorite sound was the Neumann KM184 for its brilliance. I didn't even consider any tube mikes or tube mike preamps, because I had long outgrown my brief infatuation with romantic, euphonic tube sound. The industry standard mike preamp was the Millenia Media for accuracy. But the Bryston and John Hardy mike preamps were significantly more revealing.
I have owned a Mac MC275 and a Mac C20. Both refurbished. Nice, transparent and warm... Years later I discovered a NuPrime ST-10. It matched the warmth and transparency in its own way, but controls the bass near perfect. The tubes can not match the accuracy, nor bass control I can not speak for all D amps.
Tube mics and mic pre amps falls under my original statement, which is that tubes are great as creative devices, in the creation process. Accurate reproduction, sans 2nd order harmonics and erroneous noise, not as much.
zephyr24069, Thanks for being totally honest. My audio experience started as a child 66 years ago as a 2 year old child. The classical music radio station was playing all the time. Audio was my first understood language, since I said my first English words at age 3. I started the violin in school at age 9, although as an amateur I didn't make my debut until age 40, playing solo in the Mendelssohn violin concerto. My audiophile life started when I was 25, so my audio qualifications are based on many years of familiarity with live sound. I dabbled in recording, experimenting with various top condenser mikes. Like you, I learn much from random audio experiences anywhere. Although my expertise is classical music, one of the best live experiences I had was in the summer of 2005 in New Orleans just before Katrina at the Preservation Hall. A small unamped jazz band with piano played in a small cave of a room with 3 rows of audience benches. The sound cracked and snapped excitement. On vacations, I enjoy street performers and the bells of street cars. Anyone who says that they want to smooth out the sharp, brilliant natural sounds of reality is missing the boat and defiling the concept of high fidelity.
You are smart to enjoy your stock Legacy IV as it is. It is possible it is better than the stock Rouge Audio Studio N-10DM because of more refined parts, etc. Possibly the most important mod that Ric does is increase the input impedance from 38K ohms to 150K ohms. I am not a circuit engineer, but I would make an analogy that just as with moving coil cartridges, 47K ohms reveals more HF than loading down a cartridge way below at 100-1000 ohms. Advocates of loading down the cartridge say that many MC cartridges have HF ringing, so the ringing is reduced by loading down. All I know is that in my experience using various MC cartridges with various phono preamps, I hate the rolled off duller sound when the loading down is used. Ric specifically states that increasing the input impedance to 150K ohms sounds "way better."
Agree--don't break your back and bank account by trying to find a heavy expensive amp that is better than the Legacy IV.
There’s a reason basically no music is mastered using tube equipment,
there’d be no way to ensure a consistent experience across platforms.
This statement is false. Pick up a copy of Tape Op magazine. Tube mics, tube mic preamps, tube compressors and as pointed out, some are using tube amps for LP mastering.
@viber6 Thanks pointer to Ric's site. A couple of links on it are non-functioning (including the link to the info where he actually talks about what he mods on the 1200 modules) however, I was able to follow the link to the page about the Rouge amps. Beyond binding post and one other mod there isn't much info there but honestly was not expecting a full core dump on all his "secret sauce" so to speak.
in a couple years when my warranty runs on out this newer amp I might try these mods as they are at the time however, I'd void warranty between now and then so it'll have to wait.
To a couple of other posts on this thread my reference is both great recorded music in a large number or genres out of an extensive collection as well as a lifetime of chasing live music from the player(s) on the streets here and various places I've traveled to jazz and other live clubs around the world, concert halls, cathedrals, etc....my passion is music of all kinds and I find it live whenever I can.
"I asked Ric to name one amp at any price that he has personally A/B'ed to be better in clarity than these IceEdge amps, and so far no word. I offer you the same challenge."
Well I won't be going out to buy amps just to A/B against what I have today; not practical or feasible and frankly a waste of money. If someone wants to send them, I'll be happy to test side by side :-).
All kidding aside, I can think of many reasons why Ric or someone in his position would not answer with 1 or more amps on that list. For myself, in recent years, the only amp I remember having this clarity, musical versatility, beauty and realism while not over-emphasizing, saturating and/or 'warming' any one frequency band are the Esoteric Grandioso M1 monoblocks that I've heard multiple times over recent years however, that is not an A/B.
Thanks tweak1 for your informative post. You prefer a little roundness in sound obtained from the WW optical cable. With the other cable, you described the EVS1200 as sounding "a bit hot" which is music to my ears. If its soundstage was not as big, that is expected from an accurate amp which focuses the instruments to sound thinner or more pinpoint. The opposite of this effect is most pronounced in euphonic tube amps which bloat all the sound, making images larger on a bloated soundstage. More subtlely, euphonic SS amps or other components inflate images slightly with the overlay of fuzzy warmth not present in the natural unamplified instruments.
Ric now writes that the Rouge Audio Studio N-10DM with his mods will yield the same sound as his original EVS1200, for roughly the same money, $2100, without the euphonic tube stage of the already excellent PS Audio M1200. Fabulous.
First, the price for quality class D (or all things, including food) is much higher due to world-wide money inflation: thank you world monetary 'leaders'= banksters. Now... I am one of the very lucky few to have made the leap of faith roughly 2 years ago, that ric had so improved the stock IcePower 1200 modules with his amazing circuit and parts knowledge when he came out with his EVS 1200, but the amp alone may not bring happiness. Case in point... Prior to purchasing the EVS 1200 I
upgraded
my Oppo 105 with a Linear Power Module + replaced the OEM IEC with a rhodium IEC that has a stiff heavy gauge silver tail attached to the LPM and a silver jumper bypassing the 110/220 power switch (all from ebay). Easy peasy DIY. Huge improvement for~ $400
I was/am using a Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS -5 (outboard power supply). The IC from 105 to DDP-1 is a WireWorld series 7 XLR (my system is 100% diff balanced). As much as I rave/d about the EVS 1200, the sound I was hearing was a bit hot and the sound stage was not as big as I thought it should be, but I put up with it thinking it was the dac in the DDP-1, which I was/am not in a position to replace. Anyway...
Some 9 months ago I compared my Wire World optical cable (MSRP $165) to a uber expensive optical cable
that I borrowed, which was/is glorious. Why, was well beyond what I could comprehend, but after a few months I had to return it. What I failed to do was reconnect my WW optical cable, and so was not listening to the DDP-1 dac, instead all the redbook music was playing via the stock internal 105 dac.
About a month ago I realized the optional DDP-1 filters were not engaging on my remote. WTH? So... I reconnected the WW optical cable and all my redbook CDs took on a much wanted roundness (bass was improved), plus a very deep and wide 3D sound stage. After a few minutes I decided to replace an old Modwright(?) multi-stranded, unjacketed PC with my WW Eclipse power cord. That, too was not subtle, a huge improvement over the Modwright.
Moral of the story (for me at least) was: cables I had on hand took my EVS 1200 to an even higher level than I thought hth
Thanks for your reply. I mean Class D is much cheaper to build, particularly for big power outputs. So Class D manufacturers put them out at a third of the price or less of Class AB and a small fraction of Class A. Class D is therefore a shortcut to big power but not to good sound. There is more to designing an amp than big power.
zephyr24069, Thanks for sharing your experience. I am about to order the Rouge Audio Studio N-10DM which is very similar to your Legacy IV, according to ricevs. Look at his site, tweakaudio.com, with its link to Rouge. Due to break in, I might even order a second unit, so I can compare to Ric's mods which he claims improve stock amps. Cost for the stock N-10DM only $1550. With Ric's mod, $2100. Pretty cheap interesting R&D for $3650 total. Poster tweak1 has Ric's EVS1200 which beats all amps he has had. Too bad his EVS1200 thread was deleted.
I suspect Ric is being modest in saying that the EVS1200 or other IceEdge 1200 models are merely excellent FOR THE MONEY. I had the Merrill Veritas and Element 114. They were warmer and tubelike compared to my Mytek Brooklyn Amp. They certainly would be preferred by certain listeners, but for crisp neutrality I look elsewhere. I asked Ric to name one amp at any price that he has personally A/B'ed to be better in clarity than these IceEdge amps, and so far no word. I offer you the same challenge.
Even Mike Fremer in his PS Audio M1200 (another IceEdge 1200) review noted that its bass was as tight and accurate as anything he has heard. He also said the HF were similarly detailed. My belief is that electrons don't have preferences, so if bass is tight/accurate then the rest of the range--the harmonic overtones--will be likewise. Many people like tight bass, but then some of them complain that accurate midrange/HF sounds wiry, sterile, dry, etc. They don't realize that live, unamplified instruments sound that way, but they are used to most speakers which are dull in comparison. It depends on perspective. If they think speakers are correct, then yes, live/unamped instruments and voices ARE dry and sterile. But if your frame of reference is live/unamped instruments and voices, then nearly all audio systems are dull and excessively warm/bloated.
Unfortunately, the high end audio business caters to the misconceptions of audiophiles who think that big money buys great sound. They spend more time at audio shows and dealers than experiencing live performances anywhere--large or small concert halls, outdoors on the street. Great times for those like we who know about great class D, and IceEdge 1200 in particular.
Congratulations on the Raven,....Dave and the crew at Raven Audio build some amazing amps. I've lusted after the Shaman Mk2 monoblocks more than once (and the Silhouette Mk2s). They make great sounding gear that gives the best of tubes,....
I started this thread late one night after a few crowns... totally forgot about it.
I’ve since moved from a gorgeous sounding Belles Aria Integrated to an older Raven Blackhawk. I was concerned about moving from the Belles to another class A/B because I felt like I’d gain power but lose quality and I wasn’t about that.
Well the move to the Raven did it for me. If possible, I may never return to solid state aftrr hearing a good tube amp with some pretty decent tubes.
Rolling tubes is sooo fun and tube amps with their warm up / not leaving them on all the time, makes listening more of an intentional, ritualistic experience.
@viber6 WIth the large driver area and sheer scale and abilities of the Legacy Valors and the Elrod speaker and interconnects that I utilize, I tend to hear in vivid detail whether an amp or source or source material is too much "this" or "too little that" in undeniable terms. This combination alone with the Valors in showing me recordings I know intimately in new and very detailed ways.
That stated, if the iV.4 Ultra with its ICEedge boards were conveying euphonic warmth or anything else out I would hear it; of that I'm virtually 100% certain. I've always sought amps that are extremely neutral and to the greatest extent possible, inject no sonic signature of their own on incoming waveform and only amplify the waveform. Edge NL12.1s and NL Ref amps many years ago did that in my systems and to an extent so did their Maker Audio NL14 brethren. The Esoteric Grandioso M1 monoblocks also to my ears fall into the category of amplification that I seek though I've not been fortunate enough to own them or their probable M1X successors (yet). The one exception I've owned might have been the Esoteric A-02 stereo amp that was warmer by a small amount and had a certain lushness to everything that it did however I would labels it's sound when amplifying various speakers I've owned included Legacy's but also a pair of TAD R1 Mk2s and rich/lush not overly warm.
I've heard other great SS amps (both Class A and AB) that do what I'm after however this is a very short and very expensive and backbreaking list (weight, size, etc...)
All that to pave the way toward saying the surprise with the i.V4 Ultra, at least here in my system cabled and powered the way I have it, is that the goals above are very much intact and the i.V4 Ultra delivers. Some days I look at the amp and cannot believe I found all that in a digital amp that weighs and cost far less than many contenders in other power/design classes.
It has excellent HF extension and rendering of those frequencies, transients, air, etc....what it sends to the 14" midrange on the Valors comes out detailed, rich, withOUT being bloated, overly emphasized mids, is lifelike and tonally accurate with great depth. It's hass is taut, extremely fast, accurate, impactful, all without being lean, again,...tonal accuracy is extremely accurate. Euphorically warm...."no" for sure.
I have what I would consider and others tell me is a bit of an insane and extensive CD, XRCD (various types) and SACD collection. There are many 'crucible recordings' that I both love and know incredibly well; since getting these speakers and amp I've spent months learning new details that have not come out of these discs and what I'm hearing uniformly across the board tells me this amp (and speakers) are a winning combination. They got installed a few weeks after hearing everything I ever wanted to compare them to at High End 2019 and Hifideluxe 2019...
Am I delighted this doesn't kill the wallet or the back? Sure am however I am making every effort to be objective. Is it perfect? No...not perfect but it's excellent to my listening preferences.
Have I heard equal and better sound quality both in digital as well as Class A or AB. Definitely yes....
Sound quality with this much raw power unleashed without grain or grunge sounding extremely non-digital amp-like? Only in A or AB costing $50K-$100K and more, that neither my wallet or my back can take for the foreseeable future.
From what you and others write there are other amps out there I'd also like to hear in this newly improved genre. Someone mentioned the AGD monoblocks on this or the other digital thread that's hopping recently; the AGDs sound amazing as did the Merrill Element 118 monos and a few others I heard in Munich and elsewhere,...I am sure the list will only keep growing.
zephyr24069, How do you describe the tonality of your Legacy IV4 Ultra? I want neutrality and HF extension, and no euphonic warmth. Ric of tweak audio.com describes the Rouge Audio N-10DM as similar to the Legacy IV series. I emailed Francesco of Rouge who describes the IceEdge 1200 modules as more neutral than Hypex modules, with the aptly named Studio N-10DM as representing studio monitor type of sound. I own the Mytek Brooklyn Amp which uses a modified Pascal module. It is neutral with good HF detail.
Your system profile says more than your posts. I'd say you are very inexperienced from your posting history. It's ok, no need to be ashamed, you too can learn.
As for not mastering with tubes, I guess you don't listen to any of the 60s Jazz iconic recordings? Just more evidence of a novice. Keep at it, we all started somewhere........
Just like Class A or Class AB, some sound fabulous and some sound mediocre at best, same applies to Class D. The one thing I like about Class D amps they are very sensitive to slightest cable changes (poer and signal and that could be compared to the difference tube rolling makes for tube amps. Also Class D amps will not dress up a poor recording but get a good recording going on, you will be in for a treat.
They say that transistors are meant to be switched and when they are not, they protest by giving off a lot of heat. It still blows my mind when I look inside a Class D amp and view the lack of large heatsinks, transformers, large caps yet they sound so dynamic. The background is very black (quiet). Don't get me wrong I still enjoy the hell out of my Class A/B amp and I'm in no hurry to part ways. There is no reason why you can't own both and switch things out when you get bored.
The fact that you’re calling me out for lack of perspective, when I literally just posted facts means that you don’t understand the technology you’re discussing.
Tubes are famous for 2nd order harmonic distortion, it’s literally what tube lovers like about the sound. I’ve heard plenty of great sounding tube systems, but I have no illusions with regards to what’s behind the “magic”. People who love the many and varied sound signatures tubes offer should just own up to it, rather than stomping their feet like children and contending that it’s everyone else who doesn’t know what good sound is.
There’s a reason basically no music is mastered using tube equipment, there’d be no way to ensure a consistent experience across platforms.
I think there is significance in Alberto of AGD being Italian. He surely has special sensibilities regarding a highly attuned musicality. This is reflected in his creations. I have always respected the Italian perspective on art and music... and food!
Good to hear that you have experienced what i have with the AGD Audions. Regardless of class they are some of the best amps i have heard period. Have have just sold my Pass XA25 and Wavac 300B there was no point in keeping them, the AGD`s do what they could do and more.
Using tube gear is like using a distortion pedal in an electric guitar setup. They make tons of cool effects to choose from, and they’re all useful in creating music and new sounds. But they have zero relation to accurate reproduction of a source signal. Thinking otherwise is mental masturbation.
@dougeyjones Spoken like a true neophyte. Get out and listen to some good tube gear in a tube friendly system. Your portrayal couldn't be further from the truth.
I've got no dog in the fight when it comes to Class D, so I'm not going to bash something I have no experience with, nor do I care to have any experience with Class D. But don't paint with such a broad brush about a technology that is arguably for many the most engaging means of reproducing music. You don't like it? Fine. But let's keep things in perspective, shall we?
You can’t cheap out on your amplifier. You just can’t do it. Class D is
an audio company attempting to sell product that’s nearly all profit.
Class A. Now that’s an amplifier. If it doesn’t heat you out of your
room it’s not worth your time.
Although we've been building class A amplifiers for the last 46 years, this statement is clearly false. Its worth your time if it sounds right, not on how hot it does or does not get.
AGD Audion is the best amp, regardless of class or price, I have ever heard. Class D using a patented galium nitride module that, unlike other GAN based amps, uses a module designed specifically for audio. All others use GAN used in lidar or battery chargers. Hearing detail, attack and decay produces a sound in which I hear, for the first time, musician’s phrasing. The most subtle and most profound. Music is composed of phrases tied together. The way in which singers and instrumentalists beginning and end of a phrase and the nuances of inflection give a humanity to the sound before unheard. The result is that the AGDs make even old, poor, scratchy LPs great. So many albums that I just didn’t want to listen I now look forward to. Because of AGD Audions, my listening experience has literally transformed. Now listening to Louis and Ella is revelatory. All the little things that Louis does with his voice. And I always liked Ella. But now I clearly hear why she was so great.
You can’t cheap out on your amplifier. You just can’t do it. Class D is an audio company attempting to sell product that’s nearly all profit. Class A. Now that’s an amplifier. If it doesn’t heat you out of your room it’s not worth your time.
I converted my classic speakers over time to active speakers being run by four (4) Crown 1502 Class D amps . . . and they are far from dry, lifeless, or warmth. This is all subjective . . . and arguing is purely a waste of time. We like what we like, and if you don't . . . DO NOT BUY IT! To argue to become King of the Mountain and win -- WHAT goes beyond my rationale, because I have had people over to listen . . . and what I get from them is the live presence, the detail, and the lack of distortion -- not to mention the sound staging and the lack of fatigue in listening at any level. I did spend time in revamping my system and choosing new drivers to upgrade the speakers . . . it is all purely subjective, but people have respected my accuracy of hearing and good taste in adjusting my sound to what I would consider “close to live”.
I had B&K Momonblock amps . . . and they were no match for what I have now because I have complete control over everything with regard to tweeking and refining my sound . . . and since I paid for it and it is my ears and listening satisfaction that matter to me, I may ask for a critique, but bottom line . . . I listen to it and it is me who has to be satisfied with my sound . . . not professional reviewers, nor outside know it alls . . . people have got to learn to think, listen, and respond as an individual and stop this SINGULARITY mentality . . . or be divided to the point of blows just to make a point -- opinions are just that . . . and everyone is entitled -- despite the current trends. I would suggest a THICKER SKIN!
I was reading a readers comment thread on an article about the Covid virus origins in China. One reader was mouthing off about how we need to go to war against China for allowing the virus out of their labs. Well first of all, we don't know exactly where this thing came from and secondly, I asked this commenter if he has ever worn a military branch uniform and if he has any experience with wars? I never got a reply back; my guess is that this guy has not put his money where his mouth is and therefore he should refrain from suggestions of bombing another country unless he fully understands the consequences of that. I will use this above analogy in terms of Class D amps: unless you have experience with some really good Class D amps, don't tell us about how bad they are. There are some really crappy Class D amps out there, I have heard them, but they also do not cost much money to buy and therefore most likely have not had a lot of good engineering design going into them. I currently own a pair of Anthem M1 Class D mono block amps and I can assure you that these extremely well engineered amps, not using any ICE type modules, but rather Anthem proprietary liquid cooled output designed sections amazes me in how good it sounds. I also have a very well regarded Class A/Ab amp and the Anthem Class D amp blows it out of the water in all aspects, hand down. My monster A/Ab amp sucks down a lot of electricity, makes a ton of heat and runs out of headroom under heavy loading. My Anthem Class D's make almost no heat, use very little power when not being asked to and have immense headroom with 2000 watts per channel at 4 ohms nominal. They exhibit almost no distortion and have silky smooth audio ranges. There is virtually no upper frequency harshness as I have heard in the lower priced Class D type amps using the ICE modules. I can listen to the Anthems for hours on end with nothing but smooth sound and immense output.
It's ridiculous to lump class D amps together as having a particular sound. It's just as nuts as lumping together all class A/B amps, or tube amps together. The variety of amplification outcomes in each type of amp is so varied that I challenge anyone to be able to reliably say which type is playing in a blind test. There are dry-sounding tube amps, wet sounding class D, neutral sounding variants in each class. This is a tired subject, which doesn't merit further examination. I would rather be listening to my music....and I don't care which amp is hooked up...
I recently auditioned a 100wpc Rotel integrated amp, with a Rotel CD player, with some $10,000 speakers that are a much newer version, but one model down from my own. By its size, the amp must have been a Class D. It also sounded very electronic, very much like my Crown IC 150, as far as I can remember back that far. If this represents Class D sound, I would not be a customer for it. Even the sales person finally admitted that it was not really expected to be used for long term listening. Is Rotel actually Class D now?
+1 dorkwad I had the V2 SE's, but the 2 Ohm Thiel speakers they powered needed still more juice. Recently changed to a VTV Pascal L-Pro2S amp. Now more controlled and a feeling of effortlessness, more detail as well, but not quite the same warmth as the NuForce. Still a long way from "dry and lifeless" though.
I'm currently trialing a D-Sonic M3a-1200S, which is a Class D amp with a Pascal X-Pro module. I'm liking what I hear so far and my maggies are loving the power they are being fed. I had been using an Akitika GT-102 Z4, which will probably be relegated to my office system.
I don't think so. You should get to hear a pair of Nuforce Ref 9 V3 SE mono amps with TDSS level 3 upgrades--primarily to the power supply. These amps are potent, detailed, much more live, and with killer bass and I've heard them with a variety of speakers. All of which benefitted at using the Ref 9's.
I’ll skip the D-bate on this... currently auditioning a PS Audio Stellar S300 which uses the usual suspects of Ice modules. That’s where it stops. The bout stage is a proprietary MOSFET which sounds pretty good. The excellent staff at PS say that about 300 hours is optimal burn-in, but this can be done with no speakers connected, so is purely for the input/driver stage. I’m playing all my favorite stuff and watching and waiting for either the amp to thermally warm up (they don’t), or to pop a speaker - which would be a good excuse to fed new ones. I’ve had a Parasound Halo A23+ on order for awhile...
I’d have to hear @b_limo ’s Fritz monitors on good Class D versus others to know which I would prefer with those specifically in that they are advertised to be a most easy load to drive (though not at all particularly efficient) and in my only listen I’ve heard them in fact sound wonderful off a flea powered tube headphone amp at a show. So they are somewhat unique and special in the sense that most any amplifier has a chance to sound good with them. Which sounds best may still well be a totally subjective call by each depending, but they definitely make life relatively easy for most any amp compared to most speakers out there these days.
@mamboni the larger Ohms like ours with large 12" Walsh style drivers in particular are definitely a unique beast as well. Not a horrible load by any stretch from what I have read and not efficient enough that I would try to run them off a flea powered tube headphone amp (though teh results might be interesting) but in my experience very responsive to different amps and gear in general upstream and I have found they tend to like lots of power and current to open up fully and benefit from corresponding higher damping factors like those found with most Class D amps.
To denigrate all class d amplifiers like the OP shows utter shallow thought and serious bias. To the OP: there are myriad different amplifier designs that fall under class d. So the class d categorization is so generic as to me virtually meaningless.
Do yourself a favor and listen to different amplifiers without foreknowledge of what class or design they are. Stop letting your preconceived notions about how a particular amplifier should sound based on its design dictate your preferences.
Anyone who believes that a well designed, built and sufficiently powered amplifier from 20-30 years ago automatically sounds inferior to a modern one is deluding himself. Any differences between quality amplifiers regardless of class are infinitesimal compared to the influences of the room acoustics, the loudspeaker and ones hearing on this particular day.
I am an ex classical musician and my sound reference is decades of live acoustic music. To my ears, my (ancient) W4S STP-SE and ST1000 driving my Walsh 5000s sound wonderful and have done so for 10 years. If the ST1000s are slightly better that my Sumo, Rotel and B&k amps it is primarily because they have greater dynamic power and much much lower noise. The fact is these are all excellent amplifiers. Modern designs seeking to reduce distortion and phase errors from inaudible to more inaudible are not going to sound objectivity better. It is better to focus on efficiency and reliability which class d addresses directly. You are best served by focusing resources on room treatments, placement and choosing loudspeakers that have less reactive demanding loads and superior drivers and materials.
I have a gut feeling @atmasphere would not be soon marketing a Class D amp if the technology was somehow not up to snuff. Nor would Bel Canto which took the plunge and helped lead the charge a number of years back.
My ears tell me the technology is 100% up to snuff and a threatening challenger to the high end status quo moving forward as a result of not just sound quality but TCO, versatility, and overall ease of use. That might account for at least some of he hostility towards Class D commonly encountered here.
I just ignore it because I have owned good quality Bel Canto Class D amps for a number of years now and know better every time I listen which is pretty much every day. I decided to try the latest and greatest new technology on the block that seemed to fit my needs on paper first and managed to stay clear of much old tube technology in my system as a result. Have goals to eliminate tubes altogether perhaps someday soon. I have to pull myself away from listening usually especially when listening to the Ohms, so that is the ultimate good sign and all that matters.
Of course as always YMMV. Different strokes and all that will never change.
seems to me that since class d is newer tech with new possibilities for good sounding cost effective builds and a lot of active innovation in the amp modules, there are many new efforts to make good sounding amps using these modules
as in any case with emerging/new-ish technologies, you have older aficianados who will poo-poo it, having been burned before or having experienced poor sound from earlier cruder versions... so while they may indeed have had these experiences, and they are not wrong, their experiences are increasingly out of date, and don’t fairly reflect on what is being accomplished presently by innovative folks working with the latest versions of these
Class D, good for powered subs and car stereo amps, and that’s about it. All my opinion.
I agree that a good number of older class D amps were not all that musical. I heard some early examples that I would have thought were a joke were it not for the price.
Class A relies on the bias setting and operating point of the output devices such that you get the maximum linearity out of them. This is important to keep distortion down and for getting a nice first watt.
The advantage of a class D amplifier is that controlling distortion isn't based on the output section. This is a tremendous advantage. At this point its more about how linear the encoding system is.
In a class A circuit, the linearity is important because in most cases, the amount of feedback that can be applied to the circuit is often limited by frequency poles (like coupling capacitors; in engineering terms, this idea is called 'phase margin'), which if exceeded, will cause the amplifier to oscillate. The other problem is that the application of feedback causes distortion which manifests as IMD and higher ordered harmonics through a process called 'bifurcation'. The ear interprets this as harshness and brightness, as it assigns a tonality to all forms of distortion. The ear is also particularly sensitive to the higher ordered harmonics as it uses them to sense sound pressure.
These aspects of using feedback have been known for a long time- Norman Crowhurst wrote about them in the late 1950s. Now you can get around the distortion problem by running enough feedback, but in most class A amplifiers this isn't practical since the amp will probably go into oscillation; you need in excess of 35dB for the amp to clean up the distortion caused by feedback.
Class D amps have a means to get around this problem. You can run 35dB or more of feedback with the expectation that the amp will oscillate- in fact its encouraged. The oscillation is used as the switching frequency, resulting in a fairly simple circuit that has low distortion and lacking the higher ordered harmonics that causes harshness in so many amps.
@mapman As you know, I own the Ohm Walsh 2000s for 11 years now. A great match with my class D amp, and a great value, IMHO, at full retail. Used and fully broken in makes them a no brainer, IMO.
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