Interconnects and non-believers

Teo, if you can hear in the 1mhz range, I'm calling the man in black on you, but on a serious note, you're selling snake oil. 250khz cannot travel more than a meter in air, 1mhz maybe a centimeter or two. Entirely not applicable to human hearing. You're trying to solve problems that simply don't exist. There are maybe 3 guys on audiogon young enough to be able to hear 20khz test tone. 

prof,

Not to carry this on much further, (this will be my last post on the matter) but, a little over the top is not “goofy,” which signifies something quite different.
And, I was not “settling” the issue!  Just expressing my view, which is what we do on Audiogon.  I certainly expected others to chime in with contrasting views.

Ah, ok, thanks.

nkonor, mostly it's just been finding a really good chunk of time to do the subs right.  The 2.7s already sound pretty huge by themselves, especially playing vinyl.

Back to the thread...

prof,

 I did post to you and removed it. jafant is thin skinned and had me and dicockrum removed from the Thiel Owners thread. Our questions about his system, were considered harassment.

 I see that you decided to keep the 2.7s and sell the 3.7s.
Your subwoofer project has been a little problematic. Wish you the best getting it resolved. That’s why I kept suggesting to keep the 3.7s.

 I messed with subs for 2 years along with a 300lb watchdog, ugh!

 I think that you can achieve most of what you would like to achieve; just not sure that you can get all that you want.

Best wishes mating the subs and 2.7s when you go at it again.

 I believe jafant stated somewhere that, his new goal for system complete; is 2019.

Best

prof

That's weird. I had skimmed a post ...  but it was removed. I wonder why?

Moderators routinely delete posts that are abusive, profane or significantly off-topic; that promote illegal gambling; or that reveal a user's personal information. Thank goodness. It's all in the Terms of Use.

That's weird.  I had skimmed a post addressed to me about my Thiels/subwoofers, went back to it to read it and respond,  but it was removed.  I wonder why?

rvpiano,

Well...yeah...over the top, goofy.  Your OP settling a controversial issue because you got some new interconnects. 

But you knew that, right?

We all happily post about some changes we heard in our systems.  Sharing that enthusiasm is one of the reasons we come to these forums so good on you.

I wasn't claiming you weren't hearing differences in your interconnects, only hinting toward "the other side" of the debate with an equally over-the-top comment.   I was just riffing on the over-the-top nature of your post.  That's all.  

No problem teo. Thanks. You raised some fun and interesting philosophical issues in past threads :-)

prof,

Maybe a little bit over the top,  but “goofy?”

Alrighty then. apologies.
It’s tied to this sort of thing. Not specifically, but it does deal with some of the aspects involved in the question and answer set. Is it the data? Various forms of human related (psychology and medical, etc) research are only too aware of how data can be corrupting if not properly couched and understood. Physics, at the cutting edge, can be guilty of not dealing with this all too human problem.

Where the trinity of human, question, and answer... all have to be equal to the scenario at hand. Like a three legged chair, with one leg missing, if the human has faults in the relationship to/with the two other... the functionality becomes...non existent.

High level questions with high level answers require high levels of perfection of the human in the hot seat. Thus the line of requiring to raise yourself to the level of the question, in order to reach it. That moment when Richard Feynman was asked to explain the Nobel he received to someone.. and his reply was.. they gave him the Nobel because...-he could not explain it to them.

Why do this sort of thing? The purpose is an exercise in getting a useful grip on what can go wrong. "Norman is born from the fact that the data that is used to teach a machine learning algorithm can significantly influence its behavior. So when people talk about AI algorithms being biased and unfair, the culprit is often not the algorithm itself, but the biased data that was fed to it. The same method can see very different things in an image, even sick things, if trained on the wrong (or, the right!) data set."

https://techxplore.com/news/2018-06-inkblot-ai-omg-street-stabbing.html


Once you’ve attacked, I am only properly wary. For all the right reasons.

And in better news today, spinal cords:https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-06-acute-spinal-cord-injury-monkeys.html
Part of how objectivity is a subset of subjective reality. All of science, with it’s expression of objectivity can be put in a jar and put inside the box of philosophy. There’s a lot going on in the science jar, sure. It forgets, though, it has learned improperly, for the vast number of adherents within science. Too many generations, too many layers, too wide a scope.. and it can be, and has been - forgotten. Too many layers of people and this all important fundamental can be lost. That it is ultimately, logically, born from and is a child of philosophy.
But that thing about cutting edge physics and how ALL of the human in the equation must be fully ’in’. (the three legged chair) And that involves human psychology had philosophy. So one had better be equal to the question, otherwise the answer will be garbled, if not worse.
And, I think I've got to lay off the coffee.
Drink a whole pot and that pile appears on the page. Whew.

teo,

LOL. Did you read the OP?

"For anyone who denies there are differences in cables, I have news for you. There are vast differences."

I was jokingly responding in the same vein. As if the OP’s experience was here to settle the issue for all of us. It was a goofy post, begging for a goofy reply.

Also: please point out the strawman on my part.

Further: What have I "accused"? What have I "ignored"? What have I claimed here or elsewhere that you think to be obviously false or unreasonable?  And..."almost every post I make?"

You wouldn’t be strawmanning someone...would you?

;-)

The millennials where I work say that somone is "butt hurt" when there is disagreements...cable threads sure have lots of "butt hurt"! Lol

They’re mistaken all the time.

And a bunch of them are also correct in what they say and hear.

So you can’t use straw man injections, accusations, and barbs-- when you want... and ignore the rest of it.

Oh. Wait. You do.

In almost every single post you make.

rvpiano,

Well, I'm glad that's settled.

I simply can't imagine any way a human being could be mistaken about what they hear.

Thanks.

;-)

astelmaszek

You should go check out what cabling is used in multi million dollar recording studios by master mixing engineers. The market is more or less owned by canare at a dollar a foot carrying weak microphone signals over hundreds of feet of wire.

That's not true. Many recording studios have chosen cables with great care, and examples of that have been posted here previously.

 For all intents and purposes, audible audio signal might as well be DC as far as physics is concerned.

Huh? That doesn't make sense - audio signals are very much AC. If you have DC in your audio cables, you have a major problem on your hands.

I like Canare 4s11 speaker cable.  What's not to like? 

There are none so blind (deaf) as those who will not see (hear.)

You should go check out what cabling is used in multi million dollar recording studios by master mixing engineers. The market is more or less owned by canare at a dollar a foot carrying weak microphone signals over hundreds of feet of wire. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. I have a hundred bucks of cable in a $25K office setup. For all intents and purposes, audible audio signal might as well be DC as far as physics is concerned.

Is there boutique cabling inside your components?

No.

+1 elizabeth

pc997:
Blind (or deaf) faith in science without considering  observable phenomena  is dogma and patently  unscientific!

+1 @geoffkait 

Use your ears (they are the ultimate measuring device) and open your mind.  If you still don't hear a difference then congrats -- you'll save a bundle.  

pc997
If a better cable (whether it’s interconnects or speaker or power cable) provides better sound (or at least perceived sound/notes/frequencies) then the difference should be positively (scientifically) measurable. If its not positively measurable, then, IMHO, its just a marketing game.

Two can play that game. Measure what?

If a better cable (whether  it’s interconnects or speaker or power cable) provides better sound (or at least perceived sound/notes/frequencies) then the difference should be positively (scientifically) measurable. If its not positively measurable, then, IMHO, its just a marketing game..

And this, from my ARC REF 210 Owner's Manual:  

IMPORTANT: Use the best available speaker wires and interconnects. Audio Research cannot emphasize this enough. As better components and systems are developed, it becomes increasingly important to avoid the limitations of inferior system interconnections.

If Audio Research cannot emphasize this enough, I will listen to their advice, and I do.  I have always heard significantly better sound when placing higher purity copper, plugs, etc.  

elizabeth
You are awesome! Hope you are well and playing good music today.Happy Listening!

Not a new thread of this topic, again ( and yes, there are differences ). Sheesh........Enjoy ! MrD.

@teo Whether Nelson Pass said short lengths of wire in an amplifier don’t really matter or if he intentionally or unintentionally was including fuses, or if he was making a general statement about cables or capacitors or anything with wire in it, the statement, regardless of who said it, is a little bit short-sighted in light of all we know now about directionality of ALL wire and fuses (even in AC circuits and cables and power cords (yup, AC circuits). Do you think icons of audio like Pass should be exempt from discussions about wire or cables and protected from conflicting opinions? Or are lowly audiophiles like your friend and humble scribe somehow unworthy?

teo_audio,

It’s controversial, but I think you may have something there about “ear-dumb.”

@rvpiano - In no way do I disagree with you. But my post was an attempt to explain WHY wires sound different from one another. Just MHO.

deleted cuz the above was deleted...

The human ear is very "threshold/complex-harmonic/temporal-mixing/micro-differential" oriented when it comes to realizing or distinguishing signals, or more specifically distinguishing transient structure. Almost all of how the ear works is tied to complex transient structure.

(fuses,BTW, are all about transient structure, ergo, humans and their hearing hear what fuses do. As simple as breathing, if you are analyzing the correct data in the formulation of the question)

Then, this ear thing...is tied to the most complex and capable computer known to humanity, the human brain. And one of the most complex system involved, is the ear-brain system. We are far from knowing it’s full capacities and intricacies, even today. World’s finest FFT analysis system, the ear-brain is. Individual examples have large variance, so we are all different. Some are ear smart, some are ear dumb.

Part of why we are more sensitive and capable than the measuring hardware and the engineering analysis.

And the ear dumb part is why some rail against the whole high end audio package. They may have smarts, some of them, but clearly not in the ear-brain package area.

It’s an ego projection problem, not a science and engineering problem. To make that ’fixed’, you have to find a way to gently introduce to the naysayer ...that some part of what they are -or how it is currently programmed- and understood, in their mind and body, is simply not up to snuff with dealing with the issue itself.

They might fix that but only after they get past the projections. Projections are a standard full spectrum (all individuals) problem, where no one is exempt. In this case, some don’t have it in the human hearing realm as much as the next person.

We’re foolish enough to argue over this, in some cases.

bondmanp,

You may indeed be right, but it doesn’t change things.
Different cables sound different from one another, no matter what the reason.

I still maintain that cables can only mess up the signal. The less they mess it up, the better. And plenty of cables from many companies in many price ranges mess up the signal. Noise, response anomolies, and other issues can abound. I think it comes down to finding which cables mess up the signal the least, and in a way that you can live with. I recently also upgraded my IC between my DAC and preamp. It cured one of the most vexing problems that I had with my system - the bodies of vocal sounds were oddly detached in space from the consonant sounds. The sibilant "s" sound would be to one side of the stage, while the syllable that followed would be in the middle or to the other side. Wierd and terrible, and I always thought it was my room or source gear. A new cable reduced this issue by about 95%. Amazing.

I've read many comments from those with EE degrees including electricians. Believe me I do respect your professions however what I'd like to know is when it comes to interconnects do you speak from theory or from actual listening experience with a revealing system?

Hey @Geoffkait, someone back there or on another thread said you have a website - I can’t find a way on here to pm you but could you send a link if there is a way to do that on this Audiogon? You have interesting views.
Sorry to go off-topic.

I have never been a "big believer" in the high end cables. I’m using Hosa in my all balanced cable setup, with the exception of Transparent Music Link Super. I do use Vera Star Silver Stream, as my TT interconnects, but have to say, there’s hardly any difference, if any, in my home made two conductor with ground cables. I had to extend the Transparent xlr cables to reach my farthest monoblock. I’ve switched them out with just plain Hosa cables and the difference, if any is negligible. The Transparent do make a slight difference, but doubt many could differentiate. I’m using Tara speaker cable about 24" long. I made a home made 12 gauge solid copper cable and I can’t tell the difference. I think when using balanced cables, there’s just not that much difference. as long as they’re good quality cables. I know Elizabeth just dropped a load on balanced cables, but I think she said they were long . I did come upon a pair of Aurum 20' balanced interconnects I bought for $30. They're the red type. Haven't looked them up, but they sound good connecting my Theta Miles to my line stage preamp. I’m glad u can hear the difference. That’s what it’s all about. For those who can tell a difference, I applaud u. It just comes down to what each of us hears. There’s no right or wrong.

So elizabeth, you like audio and cars.  Next you'll tell us you dig sports.  I'm starting to believe you don't really exist. 

Elizabeth, WHICH OIL did you use? That’s the important part, not that you did it yourself. Using the correct oil will boost mileage and hp by 50%.... :)

Awesome car Elizabeth, I just hope you used the correct brand of oil (LOL)

Can there really be that much of a difference between a 20,000 dollar set of cables and a 10,000 dollar set.  My sales person say yes !!!!

Too late now! The 🐈 is out of the 💼 

I’d just as soon not drag Nelson into this, even though I initially did.

So, straw man conjecture in Nelson’s name should probably cease, please and thank you.

Nelson, IIRC, was talking about the wire from the amp circuit board to maybe the binding post. And that if the given connection was less than 6 inches in length, then in his estimation, changes there from proper choices... to some minor outlier..were not such a big deal, sonically speaking.

Other than that, it was the only time I recall Nelson getting involved in any cable question of any kind.

jetter
Obviously, he was also talking about a wire in a fuse.

>>>>Really? Wouldn’t he have made the point better by saying “a piece of wire less than 1” long” instead of 6” long? Maybe he was including wire in capacitors and resistors, who knows. Who cares? 🙄 I’ve been saying for some time amp designers appear to be the farthest behind current high end trends of all the major food groups. Hyper circuit focused. 👀

For the record, I spent under $300 for the interconnects (Morrow MA4, on sale.)
I replaced old  Musiclink Transparent cables which cost about the same
at the time of purchase.

now we have data to speculate against

devilboy

For over 20 years I've been buying and selling equipment ... The lunacy of the high-end supported by the claims on forums like this, is what finally made me get out ...

Really? You gave up on a hobby because you didn't like some of the forums that discuss it? That seems silly to me. Who cares what other people think? Enjoy what you like!