If Audiophiles care about sound, then why so few threads on acoustics
... and so many on cables?
I am sure there are 10 if not 50 times more posts on cables too?
I would hope that as audiophiles we could agree that acoustics are far more important than cables. A cable may (or should) make a fraction of a db change. Acoustics can make several db changes (or more). A cable may have some impact on clarity or soundstage (and many can rightfully debate that). Acoustics absolutely will have an impact on soundstage.
So what is the reason?
Is it because acoustics are "hard", i.e. you really have to put some thought into it?
Are acoustics not sexy enough?
Is it because they are often unattractive?
Is it because they carry much in the way of bragging rights (at least with many audiophiles)?
Do they not provide enough "retail therapy"?
Most audiophile really don't understand much about acoustics and can't contribute?
The difference between those who understand acoustics and those that don't is substantial for people are fearful of wading into discussions?
Interested in people's thoughts. People will drop thousands on a cable, $10K on an amp, or turntable, but I don't see anywhere near that spend on acoustics in most cases.
"...I constructed fabric covered acoustic panels many years ago using fabrics my wife and I selected together..."
Just thinking of it, many people mantion so-called WAF as an important one. Why not put wife's picture on it? She may think the panels are the best thing that ever happened to your living room.
tvad, This is how my absorption panels are made. I always encourage people to do this. Big fabric stores always have really good deals on fabric, and when you are trying "match" your decor, what may not be popular, may work perfectly. We picked up 15 yards at about $4/yard that was a perfect compliment to our paint scheme.
I constructed fabric covered acoustic panels many years ago using
fabrics my wife and I selected together that complement our living room
color palette. To our guests, the panels look like decorative accents.
Their purpose is disguised.
"
Since time and effort is a commodity that many don’t have enough of, as
several have pointed out, there is a need for some expert advice. The
problem becomes that most expert advice is tied to sales of a particular
solution. And there isn’t really a profession dedicated to consumer
audio acoustic consulting."
Thanks for indicating that this is the perception.
Jeff Hedback of Hedback Designed Acoustics only sells information and expert advice, and he does home audio as well as pro audio rooms. He sells no acoustic treatment products but will make expert recommendations. If money is an issue he can tell you how to construct your own, tailored to your specific issues and requirements, in your specific room.
Heaudio123, I am afraid it will be too dampened as well. I will put some scatter plates on the rear wall and rear sides. I love good quality sound, so my system will always evolve. New and better speakers, subwoofers, and amplification will increase. At this point diffusion on the cieling will be added.
Since time and effort is a commodity that many don’t have enough of, as several have pointed out, there is a need for some expert advice. The problem becomes that most expert advice is tied to sales of a particular solution. And there isn’t really a profession dedicated to consumer audio acoustic consulting. (Of course!) I am now wondering whether my local university, which has a sound recording department in the Arts and Media college, might have a professor who has the training for this. If they did, and were willing, they might be contracted to come to my house and consider my situation. Perhaps that’s an option for others, here.
So, it becomes an interesting puzzle to incorporate aesthetically pleasing (or "invisible") acoustic treatments in a shared living space.
One of the manufacturers of acoustic wall panels, I forgot which one, offers customized design. If I understood correctly, you can send them a picture and they make a panel with it. You could pick a color only and make interesting designs on the wall, or your kids' paintings, or whatever else comes to your mind.
dmaddox77, the two side walls "may" be best and this is often what is recommended, mainly based on math simulations done by Harmon and others. Problem, is, almost all (all) those simulations assume no output from the mains and and one of your primary modes (~50hz) will still have your mains putting out a lot unless you high pass filter them. This is where measurements really help.
Heavy carpet everywhere and more absorber panels may leave your room over damped. Would need to be careful. Need to balance diffusion.
The reason "autophiles" don't get into acoustics is they do not know how to do the math. Plug and play away is the tekkie way. Something new? That will do. High priced junk - give him a hunk. You can't make good sounds in a closet, but you can make a closet sound its best.
Anyone who understands acoustics is either working in the field or listening to his/her tunes. Equipment alone never gives up the fullness of good music. That's why there is so much foolish tech on this site.
May the music you love fill your days, your nights, and your life. If you prefer to be an electrician: go for it.
If I have the right data sheets, the GIK monster bass trips will be pretty useless for your two primary modes, which is usually the problem with bass traps. To work at the deepest modes they need to be huge.
Not good at guessing your nomenclature, so can you explain "SR LR".
douglas_schroeder Wonderful methodology discussed here for those who wish to maximize mediocre performance of an audio system. It won’t approach upper end performance, but one can always pretend they have obtained it.
I am dealing with this now. I have a dedicated theater room. B&W CM8 s2 front LR and C, 2 B&W ASW 610, B&W DS3 in SR LR, B&W CWM663 S LR, B&W CCM663 in the ceiling. Denon AVR X5200W. Room is basically 200sqft and rectangular. 188” long x 135” tall x 135” wide. Thick carpet floors, and leather theater seating. Walls and ceilings are Sheetrock.
I am looking at GIK because they are recommended here, their product is quality, and pricing is reasonable.
I Have $1,500 to spend on Acoustics right now. GIK is recommending all 244 on side walls, and Monster Bass Traps rear walls. To start. Next phase will be front wall and ceilings.
i am worried the room will be like a black hole for sound. I would like to add some Scatter Plates now. I was thinking 2 on the side walls (1 on each side rear), and 1-3 on the back wall. There will be 5 total panels on the rear wall.
Wonderful methodology discussed here for those who wish to maximize mediocre performance of an audio system. It won't approach upper end performance, but one can always pretend they have obtained it.
Always appreciate the well thought out replies Duke! The comment I made below was mainly a response to a previous post that was made "railing" w.r.t. potential phase issues with speakers, while claiming some speakers are so good, that they don't need a treated room. The point I was trying to make, perhaps in too few words, is that "perfect" phase alignment of drivers in a speaker can be effectively ruined by reflections (of indeterminate frequency response and timing), especially in a "bad" room.
Unless you are sitting nearfield, there can be more energy in
reflections than directed.... guess what reflected energy does to
timing? "
Audiokinesis Room acoustics can be a fairly complex subject... and imo if we’re talking about home audio, the speaker’s radiation characteristics and setup also come into play - in other words, it’s not just about the room.
" Unless you are sitting nearfield, there can be more energy in reflections than directed.... guess what reflected energy does to timing? "
The first part of that statement I agree with: Typically there is considerably more energy in the reflections than in the direct sound.
>>>>The sound pressure peaks in room corners and other oft unpredictable locations in the room - including the 3D space of the room - interfere with the primary signals from the speakers. How much do they interfere you might ask. Well, at normal listening volume the sound pressure peaks in room corners can be as much as 6-9dB above the average SPL in the room. That’s 2 to 3 times the average loudness! The comb filter effect of multiple sources of sound pressure in the room kill any chance you have of receiving a pure signal at the listening position. To make things more confusing the peaks might not be exactly in the room corner, it might be a foot or two from the corner. That’s why a SPL meter is valuable. Tube traps are sometimes put in the wrong place for that reason.
Room acoustics can be a fairly complex subject... and imo if we’re talking about home audio, the speaker’s radiation characteristics and setup also come into play - in other words, it’s not just about the room.
" Unless you are sitting nearfield, there can be more energy in reflections than directed.... guess what reflected energy does to timing? "
The first part of that statement I agree with: Typically there is considerably more energy in the reflections than in the direct sound.
The second part implies that reflections ruin the timing cues. Imo this depends on when they arrive, their spectral content, and their arrival direction.
Very early reflections (those arriving within about .68 milliseconds of the direct sound) are the most likely to affect imaging precision, but they can also affect clarity. These are more likely to be loudspeaker diffraction and/or reflection artifacts than room artifacts.
Again with imaging and clarity in mind, note that Linkwitz recommends avoiding room reflections within 6 milliseconds of the direct sound, while Geddes recommends avoiding room reflections within 10 milliseconds of the direct sound. According to Geddes and Griesinger, early reflections in the vertical plane are more benign than those in the horizontal plane.
So assuming room size and/or speaker characteristics and placement do not prevent early reflections, what should we do about them? Ignore them, absorb them, diffuse them, or reflect them away from the listening area? I’m not sure there is a "one size fits all" answer.
Incidentally the above implies that RT60 falls short as a metric of room acoustics, as (for starters) it tells us nothing about what’s happening in those first several milliseconds.
Well one big reason is because many folks have their systems in shared living spaces like the living room. Many spouses do not want all manner of panels on the walls etc...no matter how attractive some of us think they are. The spousal veto vote on these panels and such is real and impacts many Aphiles.
That is totally untrue. Speakers shouldn't be musical, and I have never heard a speaker that would not be better with room treatments .. much much better.
Some speakers need ideal conditions while some are so musical, room treatments don’t matter as much.
See your statement above. Unless you are sitting nearfield, there can be more energy in reflections than directed.... guess what reflected energy does to timing?
Why is the market so obsessed with speaker design which butchers the
time/phase domain?
It's a common misconception that low damping factory, i.e. driver connected directly to the amplifier always results in lower distortion. Often it is worse.
So when you combine the jacked up timing domain with
poor driver / amplifier control due to the crossovers... instruments
never sound real.
Frequency response doesn’t matter as much as timing and phase. Take any room and play an acoustic guitar... it always sounds like an acoustic guitar. Why is the market so obsessed with speaker design which butchers the time/phase domain? So when you combine the jacked up timing domain with poor driver / amplifier control due to the crossovers... instruments never sound real. This is because you split the harmonics between drivers which have different timing behavior... this is a major reason nothing sounds real no matter what you do. I want music to sound live.... room treatments do not alter or change whether the sound coming out of speakers sounds live or not. Now combine a great speaker that is highly musical with some diffusion panels and proper placement... now we’re talking. Take some traditional 3 ways... I don’t care what you do, you’re always listening to speakers.... not music.
Identical frequency response can sound completely different if one isn’t paying attention to noise. The biggest gremlin in modern times is plugging direct to a router. And no Cat 7 cables are trash and merely add more noise in. I’ve heard this personally, it can take a system from tons of bass to 0 bass despite the fact an RTA says bass is there. Two speakers can sound completely different in the same space. Goldenear vs Zu for instance don’t sound remotely the same even in the near field even. Some speakers need ideal conditions while some are so musical, room treatments don’t matter as much.
Heaudio, you are absolutely right. I don't even visit the cable topic. I'd loose whatever hair I had left. Having the ability to measure and graph your acoustic environment is a real eye opener. Bass can easily change 10 db in just a few feet. 99% of a systems sound quality is due to the speakers in combination with the room.
Like system building, you gain knowledge and discover your likes in regards to sound by trying things in acoustic treatments--some you will like and others you find you went the WRONG way. Lots of reading helps, but not as much as the experience when trying out something new in the room treatment.
The stores the problem? You visit a high end audio seller and listen to a multi billion system in a poorly treated room without correction systems and you are told it sounds fantastic..... Most people will buy and live with that.
Maybe the Roon Eq. will conquer the audiophile community?
Actually most dedicated rooms ain’t that good, precisely because they tend to lack natural diffraction- no that endless stack of IKEA record shelves doesn’t do much ( somebody should tell Mikey ) ... the forest of monoblocks right in front of the turntable, no plants, small trees, etc... green glue, double drywall, weather seal on doors, get a listening couch aka napping tube trap !!!
I think not many on audiogon can find way around an SPL meter let alone REW or Studio Six.... to dial in a room, dedicated or not... Yes there are bright spots but not all that many.... yes, it’s possible to spend years dialing it in...so you can buy build or decorate yourself into diffraction, absorption, etc... BTW on the WAF point, you can hide 1” 703 behind a lot of framed art...RPG in distressed Walnut.... now that’s a project !!!!
post up some delay curves in your virtual system pages...
Audiophiles have to make compromises when they have a better half. It can be difficult enough to get a decent symmetry for your speakers in a living room. A lot of absorbers and diffusers just look plain ugly. And people don't have the knowledge or the tools for room measurements. So they make the best of it of what they have. A separate room would be the best. But that is not everyone's privilege. Little tweaks like cable swapping is just pastime between bigger upgrades to keep our ears satisfied.
Whatever you decide to get for room treatment first get a hold of a SPL meter and the test track (s) of your choice. I happen to like 315 Hz, maybe you prefer other frequencies, who knows? Without some way to measure the results of room treatment - just like speaker placement - you’re shooting blanks in the dark. Trying to treat the room by listening a little and moving a little is a lot like trying to solve x simultaneous equations in x + n unknowns. Rome wasn’t built in a day. After you establish where all the tube traps, diffusers, tiny little bowl resonators, etc. go, one at a time, then you need to reestablish speaker locations again.
Hi, This is the third time I am attempting to post. This is a different science that needs experimentation, basic to good knowledge and messing up a little. How many audiophiles are willing to spent time reading, practicing, listen to music and debate less for cable differences if they exist or not. The risk remains that after attempting to correct or upgrade the sound with room treatments results may not be likeable. This is a great subject not catchy though and even the majority of high end stores are not in the position to display or even suggest what path to follow. Here comes personnal involvement of how far should anyone go. Professional studios start from here and then proceed with equipment. How many rooms are dedicated ones, I believe most are living rooms and waf plays significant role for I am looking for 2 decorative diffusers and then check for something like resonators.
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