mijostyn...I take your point, well done! Meanwhile, the doctor told the patient: I have bad news for you...you have cancer AND Alzheimer's. Patient to doctor: thank heavens I don't have cancer. The great beauty of music is that it keeps us in the NOW, so no memory issue that matters. Thanks for all your help in getting my system together, mucho gracios, and always nice dialoguing with a fellow brainiac. jmw759
I need some turntable guidance
I am wanting to acquire a turntable but don't have enough information to make an appropriate purchase just yet. My two systems:
preamp- Mac C2300 tube and has built in phono
Krell MCX 350 monos and PBN Audio KAS speakers
Mac MC275 tube amp and Klipschorn speakers with Volti upgrades
What price range should I be looking in? I want something that sounds great but is also appropriate for my level of gear. In other words, I don't want to under buy or over buy. What TTs would you guys suggest to me?
preamp- Mac C2300 tube and has built in phono
Krell MCX 350 monos and PBN Audio KAS speakers
Mac MC275 tube amp and Klipschorn speakers with Volti upgrades
What price range should I be looking in? I want something that sounds great but is also appropriate for my level of gear. In other words, I don't want to under buy or over buy. What TTs would you guys suggest to me?
79 responses Add your response
I think wemfan tuned out a while ago. I was just trying to keep him from making a big mistake and buying a Linn. Daveyf wants to make sure everybody else has to spend money getting their Linn modified. rauliruegas, I like you better every day. High Five buddy! Jaym759, I suppose I did miss-state that and you are right especially when it comes to the most amazing part of our systems. I seems that it is very difficult for the audiophile community to understand how much our brains are in control of the experience. Just our emotional state at the time can change our perception of sound quality. As you are well aware our ears are connected to our eyes so that they stay on target but I think our eyes can modify our audio experience. Why all those fancy light shows at concerts? Why does my system sound better when I am happy. There was a period when I was very depressed and I stopped listening to music. I didn't turn the system on for 6 months. It sounded like crap. I read book after book after book trying to take my brain somewhere else. Enough of that. Yes, SOTA is on a roll with speed control, a magnetic bearing which should further reduce rumble and the heavier sub chassis. I have to have mine updated. All my Tables the Cosmos and the SME 30/12 are suspended even though I have a concrete floor. Sound vibrates everything and is transmitted through everything except a perfect vacuum and IMHO suspended turntables sound better because of better isolation. Unless you want to spend ridiculous money for something like a Lyra Atlas or a Clearaudio Goldfinger the Windfeld Ti is the one. It runs in that crowd and I feel comfortable saying that there is no moving coil cartridge that tracks better. It breezed through the HiFi News test record and the Clearaudio DaVinci could not make it through without a stutter at the end. I did not mention other great cartridges like the Koetsu's, Air Tight's and the Ortofon Anna Diamond because they are all very low compliance cartridges that will not work well in your arm without adding a lot of weight. There are other cartridges like the Kiseki Purple heart and higher compliance Sound Smiths that might work well but I have no experience with them. Do let us know what you do and give us a review! Mike |
@rauliruegas You have posted a number of interesting and on point posts in the past. Unfortunately, this time your point about the LP12 is not accurate. Once again, we have someone who has not heard a new version of the table extrapolating about what they would expect from the LP12 of yore...given what experience??? I expected more. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I do suggest getting some recent experience ( preferably in your own system and with a Akurate or Klimax model) before naysaying~ |
jperry 1,554 posts 10-08-2019 2:12pm True, JPerry! I don't think OP wanted this debate on which of these gunslingers has a bigger package, either. Way too much personal argument in AG these days. In this case, it took longer than many threads before the personal arguments started. People, please stop arguing and calling each other names and help each other! |
Dear @stringreen : "
Everyone has their opinions/biases..."" that's rigth but here we have not only some one biased through an audio item in specific but a true fanatic that really die for it. The LP12 people are fanatics with no common sense about, it's the same with the ET tonearms. Every one is free to post whatever he wants. In my case and if I was hunting for a new TT I never will think or have in my mind the mediocrity of that Linn TT or the ET tonearm and I said that with all respect to the audio items owners of it. The history/tales never end when we are talking with fanatics. In the other side I would like to ask to @wemfan if he already has or took a choice on the TT/tonearm/cartridge for his audio system?, because this is the main subject in the OP. @wemfan could you share with us your choices?. Thank's in advance. R. |
mijostyn, very very rare for a right hemisphere Wernicke's aphasia and of course there are cases of mixed dominance that spread unilateral functions in unexpected ways. However, you did IMHO state a tutorial about sound as clearly in all cases right-left desiccation for language centers...not in my clinical experience. Having said that I am excited about getting my SOTA and Kuzma; I will check into the Windfeld Ti so thank you once again. I have really no knowledge of the Linn, but I am impressed with the recent upgrades at SOTA, ie., motor changes and added aircraft aluminum underpinning; and even though my platform is way solid...it doesn't hurt to have a suspension system! My system is all ARC and Vandersteen 5As, so any other ideas about cartridges would be greatly appreciated. With all respect our brains no matter how they are individually organized are the most amazing part of any audiophile's system!! |
@mijostyn Mike, i’m not trying to insult you, instead I am trying to stop you from disseminating bad/incorrect information in regards to the Linn turntable. The fact that you have not heard a new/recent version and are relying on past experience, which occurred decades ago, clouds your opinion; but to come on a pubic forum and naysay like you do, really is not acceptable IMHO. People don’t have to ’modify’ anything about the Linn when they buy the entry level model. OTOH, at least IMO, what is beneficial is that if, or when funds become available, the same turntable can be upgraded all the way to a SOTA platform....how many other entry level tables can you say that about? This is one of the reasons that I suggested the table to the OP. |
jperry, the Linn LP 12 in a very important episode in turntable history. Because of all the ringing it added a shine to the music audiophiles fell in love with just like tubes. Plus it taught a whole generation of audiophiles how to walk very gently. Many of us still walk on our toes because of that table. daveyf, you can insult me all you want but anyone taking the Linn apart would wonder how anybody could get more than a couple of hundred bucks for construction like that. My old Zenith portable with the Cobra Tonearm that even had eyes was built better. Most people do not want to buy a turntable they have to modify. They just want a turntable that works right from the start. If you like tinkering great. knock yourself out but most people are not like that. jaym759 will find that once he has his SOTA set up he will not have to touch it until he changes cartridges. |
Jaym759, Wernikes area can absolutely be found in the Rt temporal lobe but yes it is most usually in the Lt temporal lobe. I had a patient who was right handed and developed an acute global aphasia along with weakness in the Left leg?? Two stokes. No just one. His Wernikes was in the Rt temporal lobe which is where he stroked out. If you like neurology today I diagnosed a middle aged gentleman with chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy. I hope you are enjoying your SOTA and perhaps the most cleverly engineered tone arm ever made. Quite a guy Frank Kuzma. I think the Ortofon Windfeld Ti is perfect in that arm and very difficult to top IMHO. Oh and not my weakness Daveyf, yours. I got over it. There must be problems with the Linn still because everybody wants to modify it. My current SOTA and SME need no modification although I will upgrade the SOTA to the new motor when I get a chance. |
@mijostyn Seriously!! You now post what you did to your poor Linn (decades ago) and expect us to believe that anything you state from now on in has any relevance to the ( current or vintage) Linn turntable!! Folks, if this doesn't say more for someone NOT putting their 2 cents into something that they really have absolutely no clue about, i don't know what does! |
Daveyf, you are correct. I have never seen or taken apart a Klimax modified Linn and it is possible that they have cleverly fixed all the problems that table had. Remember I owned two of them. Back in the late 70's everyone was crazy about the Linn. So I bought one. At that time the suspension was so poorly tuned the slightest jar sent the tonearm skyward. The only mod I made to that one was a laminated arm board replacing the Masonite one. So I sold it in frustration and made mistake #2 buying a Transcriptors table with a Vestigial arm. The one with the glass plinth with the record in the air on brass pillars. Very cool looking. Stupid design. Live and learn. Then I had one of the original Oracle tables. Again poorly tuned suspension and QC problems. Then in frustration back to The Linn LP12. Nothing had changed but I figured it would be easier to deal with and I certainly did not have enough money for a Goldmond. So I did. I dampened the platter and had it statically balanced. I dampened the sub chassis by covering it with automotive sound dampening which also made it heavier lowering the resonance rate of the suspension. I stuffed rubber of various durometers into the springs until I got the right increase in Q and made it a new layered arm board with an ebony veneer on top. The one thing the Linn taught me was that having a dust cover is mandatory. I have not been without one since. It lasted until I got to Akron, Ohio for residency. The dealer who I worked with in Miami knew the owner of a shop in Akron call the Golden Gramophone, John Ashe who was also a car junkie. We became friends quickly. He had a red 512BB (Burlinetta Boxer). What a car. Anyway, he took on SOTA given the reviews it was getting and he actually made me take it home to try. One week later I ordered one for myself and have never looked back. I put a Syrinx PU3 arm on it (great Arm) and the only mod I made was putting a glass mat on it. The platters on the original SOTAs did ring and the glass mat dampened it perfectly. I did not get another table for 20 years. Certain issues are open to opinion others are simply facts of life. I will add IMHO when it is opinion. When I do not add it, it is either a fact of life or I am horribly mistaken which does happen on occasion. |
mijostyn I have been following several of your threads on forums concerning turntables and actually based my current purchases on your knowledge and information, eg., SOTA and Kuzma 4 point. I have not decided on a cartridge as yet though. However, having just read your last comment I am a bit worried now over your explanation of brain-behavior relationships; to wit, whether you are right or left hand the speech areas including Wernicke is found in the left temporal lobe even thought many other abilities are found on opposite sides of the brain, ie., motor and sensory functions. Perhaps you should stay within your lane instead of having to be the smartest in the room...after all you did pride yourself on knowing your weaknesses BOOM, but your advice on the turntable and arm will hopefully be spot on. JMW759 |
@mijostyn, Mike you clearly know VERY little about the Linn LP12 turntable. The more you post, the more you show your ignorance. Firstly, the sub chassis has been re-worked over the years to address resonances...the current model utilizes a very damped and specific design that is not only highly rigid, but also non-resonant....which again IF you knew anything is called the ’Keel’. Even the entry level model has a new design that addresses rigidity ( Magik)...and is engineered differently than the original design..which was over forty years back!! The platter does not ring, why because it is mated to a sub-platter..! The current plinth ( well current in your terms, although it has been available for a paltry twenty years!) is corner braced...as such there are no issues with warpage...even in climes like sweaty Florida, LOL. BTW, mine is a non-corner braced plinth...and it looks like the day I bought it ( over thirty five years ago!!) ( True, I don’t live underwater in a sweaty clime) The current ( again modded...oh- thirty years ago and again ten years ago) arm board is either a multi layer wood/plastic base( on the entry level table), or is now one piece with the sub chassis and therefore made of metal!! ( Kore or Keel). None of this you know, since your last exposure to the table was what....25+years back!! Doesn’t stop you from continuing to post your drivel though... One thing you are correct about, the table from your long bygone era has been corrected....and it is a VERY different sounding table. None of this you would know, as you prefer to stick with your blinkered opinion. |
OP, one thing that that seems to be true is that you are not a tinkering audiophile. You are a musician who loves great sound. If you think you might like tinkering or obsessing over adjustments then great. If you want to be less involved with the gear, I think the recommendations for Technics and Rega are spot on. |
Dutchydog, saying "always" usually does not work well. Many records do sound better than their digital counterparts like Jethro Tulls thick as a brick. On the CD version Ian Anderson's voice is very harsh but on the record smooth as silk. I just down loaded a 96/24 remastered version of Thick as a Brick but have not listened to it yet. If a record is remastered correctly for digital playback it certainly can sound better than the vinyl. The Leon Russel (blue) album is a good example. The vinyl is somewhat muffled sounding even at volume. The digital version is clear as a bell and more dynamic. So it all depends. Mike |
Not ego, Fun! The mythology behind audiophilia is fabulous and the explanation for what people think they hear are even better, without a shred of proof. Any scientist would be laughed out of the community. It is like a ride through a haunted house with gremlins jumping out ready to cut your throat. Turntables have two lives. One is to spin records the other is as artwork. I'm all for the artwork and mechanical dexterity but try not to confuse them. I think the Clearaudio Statement wins the prize for artwork and I would never buy one even if I had the money to throw away. Daveyf, the Linn platter rings like a bell, the sub chassis rings like a bell, the tonearm board is a flimsy piece of Masonite, the suspension resonance is too high and it is poorly dampened, if you live in a high humidity area like Miami the plinth will eventually fall apart. You can correct all these problems but then you would have a different turntable. Get a SOTA , SME or Basis. You won't have to screw around and you will be much happier in the end. Mike |
I've read your equipment list and it's impressive but you also say are you don't want to spend a lot of money on a turntable since you've never had one my suggestion to you is if you want to go cheap I would recommend highly recommend the rega rp3 now if you want to go a little bit more expensive and get a better turntable I would go with the rega rp8 I mean let's face it Riga is the biggest seller and the most celebrated turntables on the market I myself owner rega P9 with a ortafon cadenza bronze cartridge, my phono amp is a pass labs xp-27 and my main amp is a pass labs int 60.I have never heard more beautiful music my life and I've been at it for 45 years. About the falling to sleep on the couch, I bought the q up and never had that problem again. Just remember analog will always sound better than digital |
check out the Mcintosh turntables, the entry level is around $5000. the mid road. $7500. their best $10500..............im a cd man and streamer for free, albums are too much maintenance with washing discs , storage, etc...... but they are romantic and kool, I'm getting to old to keep jumping up and flipping it over......poor me |
Just for the sake of comparison; I had for many years what was a very good middle of the road direct drive which I purchased back in college. It was the Marantz 6300 and I had been using (still am) the Audio Technica AT15ss/20ss cartridge. To me it was nirvana. However in the past several years I have been doing a lot of upgrading and based on what some very well respected guys in the audio business had been suggesting, I found a mint used VPI Ares3 which was about 9 years old and it didn't have a tone arm with it; but it did come with the very expensive and rare 25 pound super platter. I was also told that if I were to find either the SME Series IV or V tone arm, I'd keep it for life. I did in fact locate a mint used Series IV and I machined the arm board to accept the new tone arm. I also modified a set of SVS isofeet medium durometer rubber speaker feet to mount to the VPI for vibration isolation. The AT20ss was transferred out of the vintage Marantz and over to this new set up. I was expecting some improvement obviously, but what I heard immediately nearly floored me! I was hearing details in the known well to me music that I had never heard before. Plus the signal was so much quieter and there was virtually NO audible low end feedback from the bass frequencies at any very loud level. I was blown away. That put me onto the next phase which was to try out several different phono stages and that proved to be another eye opener to me. With each new upper level phono stage I put into service, there was something new in the detail to hear. I just in fact received a custom built Whest PS.30 RDT SE 2019 from London about a month ago which was tailored to my AT20ss... it's just unbelievable how much detail is buried deep in the vinyl that one would never other wise hear. So do not discount seeking out a nice used upper end turntable. I think my Ares3/super platter/Series IV was around $9K retail and I have about $3300 into it not including my time to do some machine work and set up. Recently I designed a micrometer head clamping system which will attach to the SME Series IV main shaft and it's being made on a CNC machine shortly and going out for some nice hard anodizing. That will allow me to do on the fly VTA precision adjustments. I really have no idea what this will gain me, but it will be fun to try it out, not to mention it looks really cool with the fine .001 thousandths inch scale on it. And I can easily find my original starting point from where I like to set the VTA. |
Well you have lots of choices I run tubes (Leben pre & cj 12 monoblocks) into ML Summits. Front end analog is SOTA Cosmos (in now for series VI upgrade). Other setup is a fisher 500C with modified LaScala's. front end is JVC QLY5F. Both tables have been fun and reliable. Previously owned Garrard and Thorens 125 and 126 tables. The JVC is easy to operate and a fine performer. The SOTA is more refined and has a better overall presentation but I also am using moving coils with the SOTA and moving magnet with the JVC. A cartridge has a really pronounced influence on sound. The SOTA Cosmos I bought used after being floored how good a Sapphire performed in my system close to a couple of decades ago. I brought it up to series IV spec a number of years ago (RIP - Kirk). It was and is a wonderful deck. Vinyl with full bodied sound and approaches the background silence of my digital rig. I sent it in after discussing the speed control and mag platter with Donna. I did not feel the need to HAVE to upgrade as the SOTA IV was to my ears already a fantastic performer but you know, audio is a hobby and I already know I will never sell it and figured why not. Donna swears the mag platter is a blow away type of upgrade but I like that the folks who sell the tables have upgrade plans and stand behind their products. SOTA makes a GREAT deck. |
Dear @webfan : Here a good opportunity for the Lyra Etna: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9h1a8-lyra-etna-cartridges R. |
Set-up is critical. A well set-up mid price rig will outperform a poorly set-up state-of-the-art. That suggests buying from a dealer who is really good at set-up. They exist, but you have to search. Identify them by asking about azimuth, VTA, protractor, etc. You should make yourself familiar with the terms first, obviously. Then, audition until you really like the sound. I like air-bearing TT and tonearms. Just my few cents’. |
@mijsotyn What you state about how we hear and interpret what we hear is all very accurate. If you happen to hear a table that you don't like, because your musical expectation bias is not allowing you to hear what it is that the table brings, this is also very much accurate...in your belief ( after all, we ALL have musical biases). Doesn't necessarily mean that all folks will hear the same thing. I think that when it comes to the Linn table, there is a consensus that the new Klimax model sounds very good...and is close to SOTA. Whether you personally agree with that is another thing entirely. BUT to come on a forum and post absolutes like you did about the Linn table...without the additional aspect inserted into the post...that this is in YOUR OPINION..seems to me a little over the top.As noromance stated, you were projecting...and not making that clear to the reader. IMHO. |
No noromance you are fooling yourself. When I evaluate anything having to do with audio I am careful to place the evaluation within the context of my physiologic and psychological weaknesses. You obviously have no idea were your weakness are which means I have no interest in your opinion. You refuse to admit that the idler wheel drive has all but disappeared. High end manufacturers favor belt drive for a reason. Uberwaltz, everyone can enjoy any stuff they like for any number of reasons. Wonderful. Everyone is entitled. I am not denigrating you I am simply stating a simple fact that idler wheel tables rumble more so than belt drive. Apparently that is not an issue for you and the 401 has other qualities that you like. Great. But turntables do not have drive. The music may have drive. Good turntables just spin at a constant speed and hopefully sound like nothing. Nothing I said was oversimplified or generalized. If you really want to dig into specifics just download a book on neurology and look up the section on hearing. You do not listen with your your ears. Your ears are totally dumb microphones. They send signals down cranial nerves #8 (vestibulocochlear nerve) into the cerebellopontine angle where it then breaks into several pathways. Depending on what the sound is it will be interpreted by specific areas of the brain. Speech is interpreted in Wernicke's area in the left temporal lobe (if you are right handed). If Wernicke's area is damaged by a stroke the person will be able to talk fine but will not understand a thing. That is called a receptive aphasia. When doing brain mapping when the person is listening to speech Wernicke's area lights up. Interestingly when listening to music the whole brain lights up! Your brain is doing the listening and your intellect is interpreting what your brain is hearing. What you brain tells you is not only based on physiology but decades of training, learning and built in instincts. What your intellect hears can be modified by all of that. Try listening to Indian music. Most of us will wrinkle up our nose and say YUK. But Indian folks love it because their brains were trained to like it ours were not. God knows what John Coltrane was hearing. Our brains are very tricky devices far beyond the understanding of our intellects. This is why you get so many varied opinions about what something sounded like. Then there is ego. Which is often on display here. Mike |
@mijostyn You owned two LP12’s..and tried everything to get them to sound better??? Like what? I strongly suspect the issue you had was like so many other naysayers, who really shouldn’t own a table that needs to be set up CORRECTLY like the Linn--and that is...you never had it set up properly in the first place...and then you tried yourself to adjust it...Yikes! BTW, how long ago did you ’own’ the two tables? Too bad you have an opinion now that isn’t what many other current Linn adherents have...including myself. BUT, it is an opinion that is far too common...and since your experience in the distant past is not what you liked...then you lump all of your future posts about the table into this experience. Instead, perhaps make a little effort to go and hear a CORRECTLY set up new model with some music that you know...just a thought!!! |
Sorry Mike but way too oversimplified and generalized! It might help your cause if you cease denigrating anybody and everything that does not fit into your perfect little world viewpoint. It has bugger all to with " being cool so it must be cool and sound good" I listen with my ears not my eyes ( spec sheets , it’s an idler so it just HAS to rumble etc). Like I said, there is room for all types of TT in this hobby and I for one will not be found criticising anybody’s choice of replay if they are happy with it. Anyway sorry to get off topic as none of this side discourse is helping the OP whatsoever so..... Enough said. |
Dear @wemfan : This SME TT/tonearm is an excellent option for you: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9h9h3-sme-20-2-with-sme-v-tonearm-turntables or a choice of today top of the line very well regarded Technics: https://www.technics.com/us/products/reference-class/direct-drive-turntable-system-sl-1000R.html In any case you need a cartridge with higher output level than the Ortofon MC named here and my recomendation is to go with Lyra line: http://lyraanalog.com/etna.html I used two different Lyra models with the SME tonearm and is very good match as will be the Technics. Cartridges as the top Ortofon, Lyra, My Sonic Labs and the like are looking for a first rate phono stage for that cartridge could shows at its best, Your C2300 could be a weak link about but it's what you own and what you like. All in analog is important but the source is of main importance and the cartridge is that source ( other than the LP. ), it's whom generates the analog signal: it's the transducer. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
noromance, then you are a seriously superior human. Not only is audio memory extremely short in all humans except noromance but our perspective of sound is subject to psychological modification. We hear what we want to hear except noromance of course who is superior to the rest of us. A good example of this and this has been done, if you put an amplifier in a bland chassis and put the same amp in a fancy one just about everyone will think the fancy one sounds better. Michael Fremer is a really easy read. The more expensive piece will always sound better. noromance do you think TechDas could use an idler wheel drive if they wanted to? What about Walker or any of the other megabuck tables out there. ALL belt drive. What you talk about, dynamic energy and oscillation is fictional mythology. Uberwaltz likes his 401 because in his brain it is a cool piece so it must sound good. It makes him happy which is great. It still rumbles like an express train. daveyf is hung up on LP12s. davey, I have owned two of them and tried just about everything to make them sound better. You just can not make a silk purse out of a sows ear. I would certainly take uberwaltz's 401 before I would go near a Linn. The Linn is so bad I would give up vinyl forever and just play my hard drive. effischer, I'll have to look into that. The spring tension must be adjustible in some way. You have to keep the resonance frequency between 2 to 3 Hz with a very high Q. So you either have to keep the mass constant or change the spring stiffness. I dearly hope the new owners have not messed things up. SME gets away with it because their turntable is so darn heavy that any change in tonearm mass is insignificant. Maybe SOTA is now using a heavier platform. Anyway I know the SOTA will not handle a 4 point 11 because I called and asked maybe two years ago. I think concentrating on the music is a brilliant idea:) Mike |
you have your system set up the way you want to hear it. It is what you are use[d] too. On top of that audio memory is very short. On top of that we hear what we want to hear. So, I am afraid that kind of comparison has no validity. Gibberish. My audio memory is superb. I hear in a system what sounds like the most accurate rendition of live music. If aural comparisons had no validity, there would be no point in any of this. Further, just because power is transmitted via belt does not mean you can ignore the drive contact points of motor bearing, belt on pulley, and belt on platter nevermind all the dynamic energy oscillating within the elasticity of the belt. |
I am afraid Mike has blinkers on when it comes to anything else except a belt drive.. Having owned numerous belt drives and now LOVING the drive and energy from my 401 there will be no turning back for myself. But I will not start criticizing belt and DD tables as a whole, because no matter what the science may say, it is all....... IMHO And nothing more. |
@mijostyn. Your post above needs something added to it....these letters: IMHO. let me ask you, when was the last time you heard a Klimax level LP12? Or, when was the last time you heard any Linn table... Let me guess, you either have not heard a Klimax model, or better still, you heard (maybe owned!) a LP12... but it was twenty five years ago, lol. While I agree with you that the Basis tables are superb, they are generally far more $$ than the Linn. The SOTA isn’t in the league of the Klimax LP12...and the old oil rig you mention...well that is no step up either....oh, yes, IMHO. |
Noromance, you have your system set up the way you want to hear it. It is what you are use too. On top of that audio memory is very short. On top of that we hear what we want to hear. So, I am afraid that kind of comparison has no validity. Hook your turntable up to an oscilloscope and measure the rumble. It will be much higher than any belt driven turntable that has an undamaged bearing. I never mentioned anything about sound. I only talked about rumble. There are four additional hard contact points in an idler wheel turntable. The motor bearing, capstan to idler wheel, the idler wheel bearing then idler wheel to platter. Each one is a source of noise. Idler wheel turntables are dinosaurs. Radio and DJ use has been transferred to the much better direct drive turntables but for audiophile use the belt drive reins. It keeps the motor as far away from the cartridge as possible and has no hard contact points between the motor and platter so you are only dealing with the noise of one bearing. Effischer, I did not know that Kirk had passed. RIP. I was talking about the effective mass of the tonearm in relation to the cartridge. The absolute mass of the tonearm is critical to a suspended turntable which is why the SOTA's compensate with lead shot added to the well under the tonearm board. You can compensate to a large degree but there are some arms like the 4 Point 11 that are simply too heavy to mount on a SOTA. You run out of lead shot to remove. I use my Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum on a 4 Point 14 and I get a resonance frequency of 8 Hz. You could add mass to the head shell of a lighter tone arm to get the desired resonance frequency but then you would lower the resonance frequency of the suspension. You would have to remove the arm board and remove lead shot. There is some lee way in the resonance frequency of the suspension so you can play around a bit without getting into trouble. Anyway the point is to make the music sound better and avoid situations that would interfere with the enjoyment of same. Enjoy the music! |
@mijostyn While I agree some idlers have flaws, I have to once again object on your blanket pronouncement that idlers are inherently sub-standard. I listened recently to a $125k Basis AJC Transcendence/Vector with a $10k MySonic cartridge, $15k Gryphon Diablo amp and $40k Rockport speakers. Later, I played the same vinyl at home and notwithstanding the scale of the equipment, my admittedly tricked out Garrard 401 sounded far better. Bags more detail, color, timbre, snap and musicality. Without rumble! |
@mijostyn Kirk (RIP, BTW) at SOTA offered to set up my Series III for anything during the upgrade he performed several years ago and noted arm mass was no longer a consideration with the Series V suspension I had him install. If I read the website correctly, they're now on Series VI. I know my Phantom Supreme is no lightweight in any event and it works very well indeed. My preference is toward crisp with flat frequency response so I generally prefer DV. The OP has speakers that may not be favorable for that balance depending on his preference, and Koetsu could be more appropriate. Ortofon is another option too. As noted, this is a hobby and having fun is key. That can often be found in the journey itself. My two cents anyway. Enjoy the ride! |
daveyf, the LP12 is way overdue for extinction and there is no way to upgrade it to make even remotely competitive it is so poorly engineered. The SME, SOTA and Basis turntable are all excellently engineered suspended tables and so much better than the LP12 it boggles the mind why anyone would want one. It was not even a good table in it's day. It was just one of the only 1/2 decent turntables available then. It's like the Garrards. There are a mess of cheap ones around used so everyone is twisting a screw here and there then waxing about how much better the table sounds. When I was young I bought a used TD 124. It was a boat anchor and reliable. It also rumbled like an express train. I had no illusions that it was magically going to get better regardless of what I did to it. But it was all I could afford and it served it's purpose. The problem for these turntables now is that there are so many decent inexpensive tables out there now that outperform them. |
@wemfan Consider a turntable that has been at the forefront of analog for decades....the Linn LP12. You will find that this platform is not that popular anymore, simply because many folks owned the table back in the day and never had it set up correctly or for some other long lost reason.( but go and listen and let your ears decide!) Nonetheless, the LP12 offers an excellent upgrade path, so you can get into the system ( and that is exactly what it is) with not too much $$ and then bring it up to whatever state you like, funds allowing. Buying a new LP12 comes with the mandatory ’set up’ from the dealer...and once that is done correctly, that set up will last you for years. I think you will not get a better sounding table than the old fruit box Linn. ( particularly at your price points). |
Wemfan, as you noticed people like to wax poetic about turntables, tonearms and cartridges. Just look at the finest, most expensive examples of each. All of the finest, most expensive turntables are belt driven, not direct drive and not idler wheel. Look at the SAT tonearm. Big stiff tapered tube and rigid bearings. Check out the cantilever of the Clearaudio Goldfinger or the Air Tight PC-1 Supreme. Tiny diamond glued right to the end of a boron cantilever. No excess material. Now look for those traits in more reasonably priced equipment. For set up you will need a good protractor. I like the DB Systems. A pocket mirror, a digital tracking force gauge, a bubble level and tools usually supplied with the tonearm. If you get a SOTA you can tell them what arm you plan on using and they will drill the arm board for you. Mike |
