robertcon- "Remember that all magic is an illusion." Prove it! OH, wait; you can’t categorically prove that statement, because all you have are theories and opinions(well, then there’s your blinding hubris).
I'm having a really hard time with: "Power cable reduced my soundstage"...
My good friend that is in the business and very very knowledgeable calmed that a well made 10ga power cable reduced his soundstage... I'm not saying it will or won't but why would it? I would like to know the science behind this. I did research on here but not satisfied. I had a pair of Logans and they were wonderful and I used stock power cables and the stage was crazy... I have been making cables for years ( musician ) and know the value on quality... what is the magic?
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roberttcan What is most likely is that your friend expected to hear a difference which affected his/her brain chemistry (altered mood) which led to a real perception (not necessarily reality) of difference. That’s about as close as a component can get to creating "magic." Remember that all magic is an illusion. The same phenomenon occurs when one listens to their system while fatigued, or following a stressful day. >>>>I’m sure. 🙄 Your posts are giving me a stressful day. 😬 |
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+1 To OP a well made 10ga power cable reduced his soundstageThe power cord influences the frequency response in a sound system. Thicker the wire, lower the sound (more bass with less high freq). A 10 gauge power cord will lower the soundstage significantly to compare regular/stock power cords. *A 10 gauge wire sounds very different from a 10 gauge wire in collection of thin wires. So, there are ways to make a 10 gauge power cord with a great soundstage. alex wavetouch audio |
Still there, captbeaver? "May be boring but no one has answered the McIntosh amp cord question...." You asked::
"My McIntosh amp has a permanently attachehed power cable that is a off the shelf product. Is their design faulty? Are they not giving you the full amp? Seems they would know about this magic 4 feet...lol" Really want an answer? How old is your amp? McIntosh’s current tuner even has an IEC connector, as do all their amps and pres. Was that update because of customer demand, or- have they learned something, perhaps?
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If - by pure chance - the first power cord’s conductor was in the “correct direction” and the second power cord’s conductor was in the “wrong direction” that alone would explain the soundstage issue. Why do you think AudioQuest goes out its way to honor the directionality of the conductors in its high end power cords like Hurricane? 🤔 Hel-loo! |
@captbeaver- "My McIntosh amp has a permanently attachehed power cable that is a off the shelf product. Is their design faulty? Are they not giving you the full amp? Seems they would know about this magic 4 feet...lol" How old is your amp? McIntosh’s current tuner even has an IEC connector, as do all their amps and pres. Was that update because of customer demand, or- have they learned something, perhaps? |
@ roberjerman, a gas pump hose could affect the mileage of a car if the car was running while pumping gas and the hose is narrow in width, taking longer to fill the tank than a wider hose. That’s just the first order potential impact. ;) |
The wire isn’t ideal, the power source isn’t ideal, the filter caps aren’t ideal. The process of rectification, generates a series of high-current spikes which are made up of a large number of harmonics, in turn generating voltage disturbances which can leak through the very non-ideal filter caps, and perhaps reflect back and forth between the source and load impedance of the system.Yes- as I stated earlier. I suspect this is why a power cord can affect a product that doesn't draw that much power. |
Some good friends of mine are owners/designers of a highly respected vacuum tube amplifier manufacturing company you know. Not believing all the hokum, I was conducting a personal shootout of power cables on one of their premier amps and found the AQ Hurricane and Tornado to make an attractive audible difference. the other six or so cords ranging in price up to $4000. didn't make much difference, in this case. I was a bit surprised and called my friends to discuss. They actually voice their products extensively while designing them. "Yes we know" he said, "that's why we put the stock cords on that we do. We found the better cord was audible. Did you try our cord compared to the Hurricane?" "Also, you're best to go directly to the wall for power." I still have the Hurricane, but won't be discarding his stock cord either. |
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Many of us are aware of Ohm’s law and rectification followed by supply caps. As an arrogant engineer, I flatly believed that power cables wouldn’t make a difference since they supply power through a rectifier which generates DC on the filter caps. Then one day I actually tried cables and conditioners, from Synergistic and later Audience, on my class-A monoblocks. I was amazed at the dramatic differences in that application and began to wonder how it could be possible. I think the problem lies in our simplification of the system model. In engineering, we tend to simplify our models to a point needed to predict the basic function needed. In the case of power supplies, what’s needed is AC in and basic DC out. Exhaustive analysis of low levels of noise are often not addressed beyond basic consideration. The wire isn’t ideal, the power source isn’t ideal, the filter caps aren’t ideal. The process of rectification, generates a series of high-current spikes which are made up of a large number of harmonics, in turn generating voltage disturbances which can leak through the very non-ideal filter caps, and perhaps reflect back and forth between the source and load impedance of the system. |
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years ago I was helping my electrician rewire an old building. I was drilling holes though basement joists that were about 2 inches thick as I recall. The drill I was using was on a 100 foot extension cord and was laboring to get through the joist. My electrician told me to use a heavier cord. Upon getting a heavier cord ( maybe 10 gauge) the drill stopped laboring. That was an early lesson in not restricting power. Joe |
So why is the audio field so lousy about basic measurements such as power handling characteristics of cords..@edstrelow I know someone working with power distribution and they have very expensive measuring equiptment for checking a lot of things. The cost may stop us somewhat. You want to see if a cord affects the current/power in your home when your system is connected to it. Their end game is also a bit different than highend audio, they want to find some problems to fix them and save money (or just check that the system works) and they work with much, much higher currents and voltages. Of course the sellers could get better at measuring things and showing that measurements for us consumers. Like: "Given this type of disturbances on your power line our cable lowers the disturbances this much". |
I recall my first upgraded power cable, hooked up to my Stax headphone amp. I was sceptical and would not pay more than $50.00 as an experiment. I was surprised just how much benefit it gave, increased dynamics and bass in particular. I assumed it had something to do with its greater thickness allowing more current to pass, something which would be most noticeable for peaks of volume which would explain bass and dynamics.
I mean we don't use skinny power cords in heavy duty applications. I assume that sometimes at least, such as for spikes in volume, our audio systems are working as heavy duty systems and need heavier cords. However years later I still wait for any measurements to back this up or to show anything happening. And yet there is a significant industry devoted to power cords, conditioners and the like. Surely someone has data somewhere. I worked with the electrical engineers, for almost 6 years as a post-doc, and I saw them regularly doing basic measurements of electrical properties. So why is the audio field so lousy about basic measurements such as power handling characteristics of cords.. Note that I don't expect data proving that humans can hear or prefer such things. As a one-time experimental psychologist working in human perception I know how difficult it is to get clean data from messy human subjects, and I frankly don't expect to find it in this field. I recall in that one of the PhD. engineering students in the lab I worked in was the first person to come up with measurements of the interaural amplitude differences needed to give a sense of direction in stereo hearing. You can't get much more basic than this in the science of stereo yet this work wasn't done until the early 1970's. However I don't believe he published these results even though he ended up as a professor at MIT. Of course my other main beef is the stupid "it's all in your head" type of explanation. In this instance the problem was that a good cable gave bad results. This is the opposite of confirmation bias so this was obviously not what the person wanted to hear. It is no kind of explanation to glibly claim that we have good science here. We don't get too far beyond basic data in acoustics such as the stereo measurements noted above, before as one of my profs used to say, there is a lot we don't know before we don't know that. |
Perhaps it has something to do with a thinner wallet? From a cable company that has incentive to say the opposite... " but the fact is that a power cord, so long as it's well-constructed and undamaged, correctly sized for the load, and driving a reasonably well-designed power supply, should make no difference whatsoever to the sound of your system. The same goes for these other non-signal cables. If they seem to be working, don't mess with them." - Blue Jeans Cable I think a key word there is non-signal cable |
My good friend that is in the business and very very knowledgeable calmed that a well made 10ga power cable reduced his soundstage... I'm not saying it will or won't but why would it? I would like to know the science behind this. I did research on here but not satisfied.Its all about voltage drop. But first: I want to understand the actual physical properties the 4 feet from the wall to the amp that make all these audible changes.The in-wall wiring has very good performance on account of being solid core. But solid core is not legal for power cords. Now about the voltage drop- depending on the amp a voltage drop occurs across the power cord. I've seen on the bench a 2 volt drop across the power cord rob a 140 watt amplifier of about 40 watts- obviously this can be significant. In addition to the voltage drop there is a high frequency component. This is due to the fact that power supplies are composed of a power transformer, rectifiers and filter capacitors. The rectifiers can only turn on if the filter capacitors are at a voltage less than that of the power transformer. At this time current charges the filter caps and then the rectifiers shut off. This might be only a few milliseconds with a high slew rate and so is a high frequency event. If the power cord lacks the bandwidth to allow the current to flow unchecked, the result is the power supply won't be properly charged. This has a measurable effect on amplifiers. In case anyone has any doubts, it is easier to test the effect on the amp rather than measuring the power cord itself. The output power, distortion and output impedance are the things to be measured. You will find that power cords most definitely have an effect on these things! If your power cord is warming up, or is getting hot at either end, its a good bet you have a problem. You may not think this can affect audible things like the soundstage, but if power is restricted, distortion and output impedance are higher, it will affect not only that but other things like tonality and detail as well. So bottom line: this is a measurable phenomena as well as audible. The audibility relates directly to the measurable changes caused by the power cord. |
EMP pulses from lightning are almost always induced on to utility (any kind - power, telecommunications, etc...) wiring that runs through areas where lightning occurs. It is the combination of very high levels of magnetic flux and the great length of cable that is exposed that results in the massive energy transfer. The only way to mitigate resultant surges is to use a secondary surge suppressor at the main electrical panel board and surge suppression at the equipment that we want to protect. These usually consist of voltage clamps that permit relatively safe levels (up to about 200 volts rms) to exist on the circuit. Most often these are MOVs, but can also include high current zener diode arrays and gas discharge tubes. It’s important to know that these devices are all sacrificial in nature, and need to be checked for functionality on a regular basis. It’s also important to have your home electrical system inspected for damage whenever a major surge is experienced, as extremely large amounts of energy can be dissipated in wiring, receptacles, circuit breakers, etc in the event of a major surge, causing permanent damage and potentially rendering the electrical system a fire hazard. The best measure of protecting our valued equipment is disconnecting from all sources of surge ingress in advance of lightning storms. |
Shielding, when done properly, can be effective. I say “properly” because most unbalanced audio cables use the shield as a signal-bearing conductor. Exactly, and noise, as well as surges, can be induced from/to the power cables directly. An EMP pulse from lightning doesn't have to travel through the power company's wiring the power line to damage equipment. Best, E |
Hey @sleepwalker65 : Truthfully, the lightning surge was mitigated by the sacrificial action of MOVs in the power conditioner. The Furman Elite does not use MOV's for electrical surge protection (but may for coax, not sure). It is of a class called "series mode surge protectors." You can read a little more about those here: https://inatinear.blogspot.com/2019/04/power-management-for-frugal-audiophiles.html Lightning strikes cause damage in large part from an EMP pulse they generate, you can read more about that here: https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4435969/Lightning-strike-becomes-EMP-weapon- So, that's why I'm wondering. Hey @tom8899 - Was the power cabled due to the surge, or was this a mechanical problem? |
A shielded power cord would have zero effect on taming a lightning surge. Truthfully, the lightning surge was mitigated by the sacrificial action of MOVs in the power conditioner. The damage that took out the Krell and its power cord also damaged house wiring and related components (panel, sub panel, receptacles, wiring, etc, etc,) and that means rip and replace all of that too. You should hire the services of a reputable certified electrical contractor to assess the damage to your home’s electrical system, and get in touch with your homeowners insurance provider ASAP. |