All very valuable points here, indeed. As to switches: There is value in reclocking the signal since the noise incursions tend to do damage to the actual shape of the sine wave of the signal thereby rendering the exact determination of peaks and troughs more imprecise. Reclockers such as InnuOS Phoenix Net or LhyAudio SW-6/8/10 have a demonstrable positive impact on SQ.
I have perfected my network for the nth time
This is the complete summation of my efforts to optimize my network for streaming music. I started out with a combination of wired ethernet and fiber optic and ended with a completely wired network with passive filtration. This article represents only one of the myriad ways that exist to set up a network around myriad component choices. Your network will be a variation on mine as all systems are ultimately unique. It also represents a “no stone unturned” effort around the realization that “everything matters.” As such, I hope it will be a reference to those newly starting out, or to those currently in the process of searching for the best sound.
Let me humbly share my journey of tweaking my streaming network that I built around a Small Green Computer bundle. Back when I initially set up this configuration I modeled it exactly after Michael Lavorgna’s recommendations, now of Twittering Machines. It was stated that wired ethernet contains a multitude of music destroying noises that must be dealt with. Who was I to argue. At the time I didn’t even know what an ethernet switch was (a free- lance musician and private music teacher leading a sheltered existence) .
The bold type face in the following diagrams indicate elements that will be changed and explained as you progress through the text:
FO through wall > ONT,smps > 8tac tenrehte > router,smps > cat 8 > $15 switch,smps > cat 8 > i5 Transporter,smps.
Same switch > cat 8 > FMC,smps > Fiber optic > FMC,smps > cat 8 > ultraRendu with LPS > Pangea Audio Premier SE MKII USB Cable > Benchmark DAC3B.
I had completely solved all power problems in my system to achieve a superior black background. The above still had grunge :
1. I added a LPS with a Y adapter to power both FMC = better
2. I added a LPS to the Transporter = better
3. I replaced the LPS power chords with Pangea Audio AC-14SE MkII = better
4. I wrapped my fiber optical cable in bubble wrap. It seems they are sensitive to vibrations. = better
5. I replaced the 3 post switch cat8 ethernet cables with Pangea Premier SE = way way way better, but STILL some remaining niggly grunge!
6. I had not bought into the $700-$10,000+ ethernet switch mania. I had bought my $15 plastic covered switch from Home Depot. I did try a more expensive switch and sent it back because I could hear no improvement. I rewired post switch and removed the FMCs. LISTENED. Then I added the FMCs back in. They were definitely improving the sound, by a lot!
I ordered a iFi iPower X Ultra Low Noise AC/DC Power Supply for the switch. I took out the FMCs again and installed the new PS. WHAM!! The sound came into complete focus. I reinstalled the FMCs and now a huge amount of grunge had disappeared.
7. The new Pangea Audio Premier XL MKII USB Cable came on the market, which separates out the 5v current wire from the signal wires. Because my Benchmark DAC was using the 5v current, I replaced my previous Pangea Audio Premier SE MKII USB Cable (same wire and connectors) and wiped another smear of noise from the window. This is the single biggest improvement of all these suggestions.
8. Shutting the WIFI off in my primary router and using a wireless access point to regain WIFI for the house. It has resulted principally in opening up the sound-stage : width, depth, with clearer separation. This was the elephant masking the remaining network problems. I subsequently had to go back into my router when I realized I also had to disable the broadcasting of the router name and also disable the WAN feature to get the complete quiet I was looking for. The result was truly startling.
9. I lived with this WIFI tweak for two weeks and I gradually became aware of a persistent coloration that I eventually came to realize was masking the harmonic structure of the music. Once I defined the problem there was no ignoring it. The problem had to be solved.
I started digesting the suggestions in this thread for optimizing an optical filter as I watched the $$$ mount while listing things to buy. I remembered that Mr. Lavorgna moved on by replacing his optical filter with a GigaFOIL. I found a thread on this very subject from that time period. Some level-headed fellow suggested removing the filter for a listen before proceeding. He had become unconvinced of the need for filtering. It was simple to connect an ethernet cable directly from my switch to the Sonore ultraRendu. I pushed play on Qobuz not knowing what to expect. Not only was the coloration banished, but the musicians exploded into the room, the result of expanded dynamic freedom . I was sitting there like a one-year-old that had seen his first Jack-in-the-Box! I stayed up late last evening listening to favorites with profound new revelations at every turn of phrase.
I decided to redo the test I had done previously comparing Dudamel conducting Ives Symphony 2 : Qobuz 24/96 vs CD 16/44.1. The first time I reported that they sounded identical. Now they did not. The Qobuz sounded like a SACD and the CD sounded like a CD, which is how it should sound when comparing different resolutions. The CD sounded like the colored generic-optical stream and the all-wired stream of Qobuz sounded much more open and revealing of a multitude of detail.
My network is now simplified being all wired ethernet with no optical:
FO through wall > ONT,smps > 8tac tenrehte > router,smps > cat 8 > $15 switch with iFi PS > Pangea ethernet > i5 Transporter with LPS
Same switch > Pangea ethernet > ultraRendu with LPS > Pangea Audio Premier XL MKII USB Cable > Benchmark DAC3B.
10. Let’s do some testing. I stumbled on this looking for other advice. It was reported that the ethernet cable direction makes a difference. My findings: definitely!!!!!
Test piece : Qobuz stream 16/44.1 : Elliott Carter "Horn Concerto" which is a highly detailed and dramatic work sure to reveal any differences.
First, I reversed cat8 between ONT and router and a veil was removed!!
Second, I reversed Pangea ethernet between switch and Sonore ultraRendu, and I had it right the first time.
Third, I reversed Pangea between switch and Transporter i5 resulting in severe sonic degradation. Back to the way it was originally.
I don’t have the courage to reverse the 50’ cat8 running under my floor and suspended with cable ties, but extrapolating from what I heard, I think I got it right(grin).
Three out of four isn't bad, but that one reversal has taken things to a new level of dynamic freedom and sonic clarity.
I was grateful for this new discovery because it gave me a foundation to further explore ethernet cabling in my system. Initially I researched out an inexpensive Chinese brand of cat8 that had excellent published specs and just went with it. When I substituted Pangea cables post switch (Every component in my system has to be best value for the dollar, systematically synergistic, and musical sounding. No budget busting or retirement account draining devices allowed!) I got a nice jump in clarity and left it at that. Now, when I had just removed the optical filter from my network, I had an extra Pangea and decided to try it between my ONT and router.
This involved some work as the cable was short necessitating me moving my router much closer to the ONT. I removed the Ethernet cable whose direction had been determined, with a cable whose direction was not determined. I had to try it both ways and then go back and forth between cables a couple of times, and the Pangea won. The Chinese cable sounds wonderful but just a little smooth and a little less open on the top. This is subtle but clear to me, and the more open cable leads to less fatigue in longer listening sessions.
This suggests that the remaining 50' Chinese cable MAY need to be replaced and I ordered a 20m Supra cat8 and Linkup cat8.
11. Ladies and Gentlemen : the results of The Great Ethernet Cable Shootout. The contenders:
a. Pangea Premier SE cat8 26awg Cardas Grade One silver-coated copper, audiophile claims .6m (Audio Advisor)
b. Gigaware cat6 24awg 15m (Radio Shack)
c. Chinese No-name cat8 26awg 15m published specs (Amazon)
d. Linkup cat8 22awg 15m published specs (Amazon)
e. Supra cat8+ 26awg 20m audiophile claims, published specs (ebay)
All cables were individually listening tested for directionality. It was conclusively unanimous, all of the ethernet cables sounded better one way than the other. When installed backwards the principal result was a shrinking of the sound-stage. It seemed the longer the cable the more dramatic the effect. Since none of the cables had marked arrows, the chances of correct installation when testing a new cable was 50%, and that is what I achieved. With a little experience I could hear the narrow sound-stage in less than a minute. These results are corroborated in Audio Quests ethernet cable literature :
Directionality
All audio cables are directional. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. Arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For best results, have the arrow pointing in the direction of the flow of music. For example, NAS to Router, Router to Network Player.
After I had corrected the reversed cable in my network, and replaced the short Chinese cat8 with Pangea, the sonic improvements led me to suspect the 15m Chinese cat8 as a potential bottleneck in my network.
ONT > Pangea > router > WINNER of the Shootout > switch > Pangea > Sonore ultraRendu
A. I installed the Gigaware cat6 that I used when I first started to experiment with streaming years ago. The sound was horrible. It reduced the sound of $$$$ equipment to the sound of $$ equipment.
B. The Chinese cat8 was good sounding and I could get Qobuz 24/96 tracks to sound like SACD. When after weeks of reading this thread and working on my network I listened to silver discs again, I found a subtle difference which I felt I needed to pursue, leading to this test.
C. The Linkup cat8 is an industrial strength cable, unusually thick and stiff. My initial impression was it is going to need significant break in time. After 24 hours it sounded better but in no way settled. My impression was that it is a system dependent cable. I am pretty sure it will never be the right fit for me.
D. The SLAM-DUNK WINNER is SUPRA 8. When I dropped this into my system the instincts leading to this test were completely justified. Indeed, the Chinese cable was holding the sound hostage. The sound-stage opened to new unheard of width and depth. The dynamics were so free and the musicians were so present, I wondered why I could not smell their sweat. I did not think to look at my speakers because it was obvious there was no music was emanating from them!
Upon reflection there is a synergy between the Pangea and Supra, a perfect marriage. Each allow the other complete freedom to do its thing. Since I will never hear a complete loom of either Pangea or Supra, I cannot conjecture what they would sound like. I don’t care, because when you have found the love of your life, you will only confuse yourself or do harm by continuing to play the field.
There are so many other brands/models to choose from. Many of you have your favorites. For me the above setup is a cost-effective value-for-performance solution that I always search for.
While I was testing, it was easy to run each ethernet cable to my new wireless access point and stream music to my laptop > iFi usb filter > AudioQuest Dragonfly Red > headphones. In each case, the sonic signature of the cables described above was broadcast over WIFI. This suggests there is no free lunch and a quality cable is needed.
12. I gathered the pieces to replace the smps for my ISP ONT and router:
a. iFi elite 12v 4a PS
b. DC cable Y adapter 18awg
c. Pangea 14awg PC
d. Brickwall surge protector
The installation of them opened the soundstage to cavernous dimensions, brought unbelievable separation to complex music, and a wonderfully beautiful tonality.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I declare my network optimized!
- I am back. After getting through #12 above, I was a tired and worn out audiophile and needed to return to being a melomaniac, my chief feature. After three months of joyfully listening to music on LPs, silver discs, and Qobuz, the audiophile lights started to flash into my attention. I was listening to a CD of Brahm’s Symhony 2, Dohnanyi, Cleveland Orchestra on London. The performance was immersive and the sound was definably solid in audiophile terms. I wondered how it would compare to the streamed 16/44.1 version. Here we go down the rabbit hole. There was no favorable comparison. The streamed sound was bleached and the dynamics impeded. Could this be be the “ethernet noise” that I had so far been unable to quantify? Could I do a quick test on my hypothesis that did not use fiber optics?
My network with possible filtration points: 1,2 etc.
ONT > cat 8 > (5) router (4) > cat 8 > $15 switch > cat 8 > (3) i5 Transporter
Same switch > cat 8 > (2) ultraRendu (1) > USB cable > DAC
I remembered that I had an iFi iSilencer USB noise filter that I had purchased to use with my Audio Quest Dragonfly Red DAC some years ago. I had considered trying it in the big rig several times but considered it unworthy due to prejudice (no one is immune). When I tried it in position 1 above there was a definite improvement. iFi has a new version called iFi iSilencer+, which I ordered and was rewarded with another big step in enhanced performance.
Was I done? I noticed iFi had an iFi LAN iSilencer in their catalogue. I reached out to Ifi support and asked what I could expect if I piggy-backed these in the same network. I got an immediate, thoroughly helpful, and cheerful reply stating I would probably experience “diminishing returns”, but you never really know until you try for yourself. Off went the order. I tried it in position 2 and it was not optimal to have two filters on the in and out of the same device. There was a slight but discernable squashing of the sound-stage. When I moved the LAN filter to position 3 I got a huge improvement that was additive. I moved it from position 3 to 4 and heard a new kind of good while sacrificing the previous good. I ordered a second LAN filter.
Trying LAN filters in positions 3 and 4 and the USB filter in position 1, I was rewarded with an other additive upgrade in performance! I moved one filter from position 4 to 5 and it just sounded wrong. Back to 4 and I was done filtering for $250 plus tax and no new boxes, PS, PC, etc.
- While I was waiting for the various filters to arrive I realized I had not yet experimented with mechanical isolation with my router, PS, surge protector (12 above). I bought another bag of hockey pucks and used stacks of 2 under devices until they were stable and achieved another huge improvement! I also tested elevating the PCs and 20m Supra CAT 8+ ethernet cable from the floors around the router and in the listening room. I was rewarded again. DO IT!
When you are working on your network and pondering your progress, be sure to compare “apples to apples” or CD verses 16/44.1 as your principle test. When they match you have truly achieved something. There are many files on the streaming services that are not the same as the CD so you have to use your experience to make sure you are on the right track. I am now getting as close to equality comparing CD to streaming 16/44.1 as I am likely to get and have probably achieved parity. The improvements I have brought to CD level streaming have scaled nicely to higher resolution streams, opening up sonic vistas that were subtly masked before and now stunning to witness. After all, what is a direct comparison to these resolutions? My streaming has become a truly satisfying experience.
Ladies and Gentlemen, for the second time, I declare my network optimized (until the audiophile lights start flashing)!
Now I am going to jump into the weeds and try to draw some conclusions :
a. There are two (three) ways to skin this network cat : All wired or conversion to all optical, both can sound equally good, although I personally have not heard optimized optical. (In addition there probably are those who have optimized WIFI setups.)
b. I think another reason for my success with all wired ethernet is the installation of a whole-house surge protector. This not only has lowered the line voltage from 126v to around 122v, but also seriously lowered the electrical noise floor. This has benefits for a network being installed in multiple rooms and on different electrical legs.
c. I am sensing that before the WIFI tweak (ref 6 above), the optical filter could remove some, but not all of the upstream noise, suggesting a confirmation of the original poster’s assertion of signal damage. This could and should be investigated by someone with the right equipment and expertise. What happens to the square wave when subjected to intense RFI in these router combos?
d. Wired network optimization now consists of the tried and true audiophile tweaks of quality cabling, ALL THINGS POWER, mechanical isolation, and passive filtering. In addition optical network optimization needs the highest quality converters with additional LPS and PCs, transceivers, and optical cable. This can be effective, but is it necessary? It surely is expensive. (Again, BOTH need to use a separate Wireless-Access-Point.)
e. IMHO, for those newly setting up their network, I highly recommend all Pangea digital cables, the highest model only, available with a 30 day return. Give them a listen against the mega-buck cables or the cheapies you may be using and see what you think.
This post reveals that I make no changes in my system unless I have clearly defined a problem that needs a solution. I listen to music with my trained and experienced musician’s ears. Problems always surface when I get frustrated trying to parse more meaning out of the performance/sound. My system has been meticulously tweaked. When one first starts tweaking, the sonic changes are minute because there are still so many problems masking clarity. However, as you get to the end, each new tweak is a revelation/game-changer. They are harder to find but Oh!-so-rewarding. If I can find anything new I’ll report back.
This was a four year journey. I have learned a ton along the way. I hope it is helpful to someone else.
231 responses Add your response
Daily gibberish of singingg 6
Now that we have fought WW III & IV on this thread, I hope we can stop feeding the troll and refrain from further psycho-analysis, and get back to the discussion of the OP.
Review: Technics SL-G700M2 Network/SACD Playerhttps://twitteringmachines.com/review-technics-sl-g700m2-network-sacd-player/
It is not easily achievable but well worth pursuing for the sonic rewards and the education of the journey. You can see many have not faced the challenge head on yet.
Now folks, I as a layman, am going to jump into the weeds and try to discuss a couple of issues, both of which have become conflated, and have been plaguing everyone. I invite polite constructive discussion. I am way less than an expert and just want to learn.
A. Ethernet cables need a two-way communication accomplish their task. This is easily seen in the diagram. The green wires on pins 1& 2 always Transmit, and the orange wires on pins 3 & 6 always Receive. If you reverse the direction of the wire, pin 1 will always connect to pin 1. The design is for bidirectional communication.
Now say we are transmitting music from a switch to a renderer and the signal is traveling from left to right in the diagram, if the green wires direction are aligned with the signal direction, then it MAY sound better. We then test the sound of the resulting music comparing one direction to the other. I have done this and reported the results in the OP. Now it is your turn to test and report. (How to align the other wires for the ultimate design, I leave to the engineers.) In conclusion, don’t equate bidirectionaliy with directionality.
It took me a long time to finally identify and quantify the destructive nature of said noise (13 in the OP). In fact, I published a post entitled “The Myth of Ethernet Noise,” which I have withdrawn. I have tried to keep the switch simple ($15, believe it or not, and my streaming is sounding A+ with this device). The only switch upgrade was a high quality PS which really enhanced its performance through giving it the energy it needed. It has been my approach to find the actual source of the signal degeneration and creatively find its solution there. This is not stated to ruffle any feathers, because I am as aware as any of the myriad design choices and solutions for setting up a network/system. Just become aware that you are asking the switch to switch and solve other issues that may be best addressed elsewhere, OR NOT, depending on YOUR SYSTEM DESIGN APPROACH and WHAT YOUR EXPERIMENTAION LEADS YOU TO CONCLUDE.
To take one example:
When people replace switch X with switch Y “that does more things,” and then conflate, they say that switch Y sounds better than switch X. However, with pinpointing, the actual issue might be with the router spilling noise. Is it better to address the noise at the router with passive or optical filtration, or let the switch at the next junction down the road deal with it in its way? Are both points equally successful at addressing the issue, or is one better than the other? You have to experiment and make these design choices for your system. So does switch Y sound better than switch X when it is switching?
I have not yet found that switches sound different if well powered. However, that could change at any time if I HEAR something that jolts me awake.
CHEERS! |
@lalitk +1 and well said. Again I quote Pink Floyd from The Wall — “It’s not easy banging your heart against some mad bugger’s wall.” |
I applaud your efforts but as you can see, you’ve pretty much wasted your time and energy. It’s best to ignore folks like fredrik ….their singular purpose is to provoke and cause discord. Unfortunately, Mods here are much more tolerant and that’s why they can get away with their continuous nuisance and bullying. Birds gotta fly |
@kennyc like everyone knew, you have no relevant experience, and you can’t poke a hole in even a basic high level description of how Ethernet works. and yet you go on about self worth and other completely unrelated topics, so who is it that really has a self worth issue? I know I don’t, and I don’t claim to know things I don’t. You however, do over and over again. |
I’m with you Audioman. The SW8 is a relative bargain compared to the cost of other Audio grade switches. I have not heard other, more expensive switches to know if more sound can be had. At this point streaming 44/16 sounds as good as CD and hi res sounds even better. I’m satisfied. I sit down many evenings and mostly stream music now for several hours. What a great time for Audio- amazing sound and millions of albums at my fingertips. I still say that having fiber optic in the chain is better than nothing. A lot of sound gained for the money. But yes, once you hear the music through an audio grade switch there is no going back. The one rabbit hole I have not ventured into is fuses. I hear what you are saying but I’m reticent to go there and start a whole new cycle of trial/evaluation. Besides, I did try to just look at the fuses once in my amps, preamps and DAC. They all have that same access door next to the IEC connector. I couldn’t get that door open with my fingers and stopped right there. I determined that I would not get a pry tool and go any further.
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I have found fiber optic took the life out ofthe music ifirst bought the latest motorola 8702 modem router combo , then bought from linearTube Audio , their LApS power supply to the router, which came with a excellentDC cable ,this is be far the best LPS under$1200 ,and for $750 a steal and made in USA , I put aSynergistic purple fuse in it , and Pangea sig mk2 awg14 power cord. Agood Ethernet switch is essential , the SW8 has a Oven controlled clock, low noise regulators, and a linear power supply ,made. By Jays audio for$595 a excellent deal, i Put a Hifi tuning copper fuse it ,and samepsngea powercord , IHave a Jcat Reference Ethernet cable , and AQ Diamond 💎, usb the verygood Final Touch Audio Callisto USB cable , ,I have a custom SS server and several dacs still saving for my 🎄 🎅 present , the T+A 200 dac which is a steal at $7200 before discounts. And an innuos server streamer .the Sonic purity is much better. I have several friends besides myself that have had fiber optic setups , buying very good Ethernet switches,top LPS sound more natural ,but all cables too have to be very good , I should add myself feel a good quality SS amplifier, and Tube preamp make a great combo ,I have 40 years into it and my streaming is finally getting their ,around $5k before you get to the dac or streamer , necessary if you want to get A very natural presentation. |
I surmise while most on this forum participate to help, learn, grow. However, you participated for a different reason - to selfishly show off your superior Ethernet knowledge so your ego can be stroked. You expect us to respect your expertise, but you don’t reciprocate by respect ours or anybody’s else. You ignored any other evidence because you were so confident of your computer expertise would be “illogically” enough to apply to the “cutting edge” field of high-end audio. When your self kudos plan started backfiring as vast evidence to the contrary revealing your lack of basic high-end audio knowledge comes to light. You are 100% correct that for “most” applications “noise” is a non-issue - that’s your experience, but other disciplines like military, avionics , and high-end audio (which are beyond your level of expertise) this noise matters. And, no - I’m not trying to show “my superior knowledge”. I’ve long outgrown the notion that putting someone down makes me feel “relatively” better (I don’t make fun of another’s misfortune). Instead, I look for win win opportunities which is a much better (mature) approach. What I am doing is defending members from your interruption, your belligerent arguing (a pattern with you), your false unsubstantiated claims. Many of the members you attacked have long track records of graciously sharing their experiences and expertise to help others. While it’s been established that reasoning in pointless because of an emotional block, I continue to engage you for your benefit. Years ago I took to heart “ one of the worst liars is yourself” (“it’s too hard, I can’t do it (won’t), it’s ALL their fault…). Nowadays I try to live in truth and it has served me greatly. I’m hoping that you’ll someday have the courage to face your fears, live by truth, develop more empathy (being in their shoes, concerned for their feelings, treating them as you want to be treated), to decouple your self worth from you being right or wrong, and that admitting errors is not weakness. Changing defensive emotional habits is very difficult, but it’s will pay lifelong dividends. |
@mahgister , if you are happy with it and enjoy it, that's what counts! I haven't posted my system yet, it's been in transition but at its current level it sounds great to me and is the best system I've had to date after starting this hobby in the seventies. |
My system is low cost and very simple...😁 Half of people here had costlier system than me .... But it is so well chosen and synergetical that it is preposterous for me to upgrade it ... I tried today and it was useless and i will return this top good component ... 😊 My method is simple : there is three embeddings of an audio system : electrical, mechanical and acuostical... I work around these three embeddings problems with also some tweaks of mine... Audiophile subjectivist or objectivist focus on the gear measures or brand named , i focus on synergetical components well embedded optimally in the mechanical, acoustical and electrical dimensions... A low cost system is enough for me to reach minimal and even optimal acoustic satisfaction threshold... my guiding factor is the ratio S.Q. / price scale evaluated by objective acoustic factors defining the different aspects of 5the soundfield... We must learn how to listen , and listening 50 amplifiers, 50 heasdphones and 50 dac will never taught us how to listen... Experimenting with acoustic will taught us how to hear and how to listen... i believe in acoustic and experiments thats all... I dont believe in price tag.... Two of my components are TOP vintage flagship of the past .... And it is so good without being perfect , upgrading is hard and very costly...
For ethernet and streaming i had no experience and dont need it... Then i believe you on that... As i believe in the OP experiments ... I cannot be an arbiter and a referre here...
my best to you...
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@mahgister i have seen your pictures and read about your system, and it is a very interesting approach. I have no idea about any theory behind any of what you have done, not my area of expertise. But I think that is a system worth listening to. the point about the color is that it can’t matter, and without an understanding of Ethernet, TCP/IP and streaming, no one can understand why a switch or cable can’t matter in the way people say they do. |
I understand your point... But shungite is a mineral and is not a "color"... Anyway many will call me tin foil hat for using it as i used Schumann resonators grid in my room and ionization with succeess at very very low cost ... The problem is the biases we all have, they are not the same biases; then calling people crazy is not a good idea in general... that is my point... For ethernet cable i had no idea i never try them with experiment ... My best to you...
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@mahgister no, defined by how Ethernet, TCP/IP, and streaming works. Has nothing to do with my education and experience, I did not design these protocols, I merely practice the a living. The facts are that there is no theoretical improvement possible with any audiophile tweaks, and you have to have a solid understanding of how things work to understand that. And here is the problem, people without any relevant knowledge make fantastical claims of things that just cannot be true and it is easy to verify that is the case. if I told you that if your speaker cable is green, all other things being equal, the sound quality would be superior, you would rightfully call me a fanatic and crazy. Not a perfect analogy but close enough. |
You spoke about all the fanatics here... There is fanatics everywhere... It is not necessary when you come here to precise that there is some here of a specfic kind defined by you because you are engineer.. As an example you spoke about "experiments with a theoretical possibilities" ONLY and probably defined by your engineering dgree in software engineering.. But suppose as an experiment, i suggested to someone a fun experiment nowhere recommended in engineering manual, but it is low cost and create a difference for my ears ? Suppose i use shungite on some of my connectors....😊 Am i a "fanatic" or a "tin foil hat" ? No need to consult Delphi oracle to know the answer you will give to me .. In the meantime my 100 bucks small speakers with the right dac and some tweaks sound audiophile... am i a "fanatic " ?
You see it is not rational to call people fanatic because they try something for experiment which make no sense to you ... I never bought any tweak by the way...😊 I trust acoustic science more... But i created my own tweaks homemade... My best to you...
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@kennyc go ahead, poke hole in what I posted on how it actually works. Show us your superior knowledge in RFI/EMI and Ethernet. but before you do, share your relevant education and how many years of work experience you have with networks. |
@mahgister fanatics because facts do not matter to them. If you want to put yourself in this group, that is up to you. regarding the newbies, experiment is of course encouraged, but experiment with things that at least has a theoretical possibility of making a difference, and there is no theoretical improvement possible with Ethernet, because it is very very different from everything else. |
@kennyc you have not, and you will never, point at something where I wrong. Like I said, facts don’t matter to fanatics. Noise is a non issue in residential Ethernet, and no one in this thread knows enough to argue this. Here are the facts, on the analogue level, an Ethernet cable is a balanced design that removes all noise in a residential setting under 1000 MHz. Since Ethernet is a point to point communication today, no noise can be propagated down the chain. if there is so much interference that the receiver can’t read what is on the wire, the the protocol Ethernet kicks in, and it will discard the frame because it failed CRC checksum. Since streaming used HTTPS, TCP would then fail to ack this packet that was in the Ethernet frame, and a retransmit would occur. at a high level, that is now it works, and I already posted this in detail with diagrams earlier in the thread, but again, no one here understands these very simple diagrams of how it actually works, because they never wanted to learn in the first place. It is like talking math with a 1 year old, there is a complete lack of understanding. |
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Daily Gibberish from singingg
While the battles raged last evening I decided to visit the “Fool on the Hill.”
Day after day, alone on a hill But the fool on the hill sees the sun going down Well on the way, head in a cloud But the fool on the hill sees the sun going down And nobody seems to like him, they can tell what he wants to do But the fool on the hill sees the sun going down And he never listens to them, he knows that they're the fools The fool on the hill sees the sun going down Oh ('round and 'round and 'round and 'round)
We decided to listen on his well tweaked system to Copland “Billy the Kid.” It is a story about how the bad guy gets killed in the end and everyone lives happily ever after. What could be better than that? Well this:
My front doorbell rang and I greeted my audiophile friend who had ridden the quarter mile to my place on his bicycle. We have known each other for 40 years and have shared much as we upgraded and tweaked systems. He is also an amateur recording engineer who makes recordings of a local classical concert series. My standard review when I go to his place to hear his latest work is, “Another fantastic recording by M!” They are on a par with the best.
It had been a while since his last visit and he came over to hear all the little tweaks I had been implementing. I gave him the tour. Time to listen : Qobuz, Gomalan Brass Quintet - Gomalanshort, Tango. We finished listening and I started to talk about the music. He interrupted me and said, ”That sounded FANTASTIC!” I was flabbergasted because we are always polite and say very nice things about each others systems, but never go overboard. This was a first. We finished the enjoyable hour listening to Nat King Cole and Natalie Cole sing for us. He left into the night muttering out loud how fantastic it sounded. Maybe I have finally convinced him to dive into streaming. His eyes keep getting bigger! (chuckle) |
Feels like dealing with a hurt child. Prideful of knowledge about “x”. Goes on the forum talking about “y” to say their wrong because “x” is THE all encompassing answer, so everyone else on this forum, and by extension all other high-end audio reviewers and users from whom we gathered our knowledge, are all wrong. When asked specific questions pointing to his errors, he refuses to answer them which he realizes would lead to him being wrong in front of others. Admitting you’re wrong is unpleasant, but we’re human, we all make mistakes. Owning them takes a level of maturity.
So, reasoning is pointless. I hope he learns to not tie his self worth to being right or wrong, as humans we all make mistakes. Strange, to have someone come on this forum with no/minimal interest in looking for superior sonics which this hobby is all about. |
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@mahgister Very well put. And I totally agree with your assertions. https://www.pbs.org/empires/thegreeks/characters/socrates_p4.html#:~:text=When%20told%20that%20the%20Oracle,to%20prove%20the%20Oracle%20wrong.
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Fascinating character you are! The OP had tell us about his experiments, right or wrong, he cannot be wrong on all experiments he conducted no ? Why calling him a fanatic ? Am i a fanatic because i created my own homemade tweak experiment and used it with success for myself ? Am i a fanatic because i respect each one set of experiments ? Or am i a fanatic because you appear to me a bit fanatic and i said so ? You want to put "doubts in newbies mind" about the fun to experiment instead of buying gear ? You patronize everybody here, newbies included, because you are an engineer in software ? And then you believe you know and only you what a sound is and what hearing is to add to your vast enlightened knowledge in audio and we are supposed to be cargo cult audiophiles ? And we are fanatics ? You make me smile by the mixing of arrogance and despise toward people here... 😊 "fictional improvement" .... Why fictional if there is a set of incremental improvements, as the like i lived through the last days with a cheap set of speakers ? In modern life , we are all put in specialized works and fields; perhaps you dont know it but we are all ignorant in many fields yourself included ... I am pretty sure i am ignorant in software engineering , but i know for a fact that you are ignorant in other fields, ... Then be polite and dont patronize people calling them "fanatics"...
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1) No you can’t we have not discussed high end audio in this thread at all, just fictional networking. 2) since you don’t know anything, as established, you can’t educate anyone.
Regarding RFI/EMI, given my civil engineering degree in computer communications, pretty sure I know more than you. Regard power supplies etc, no, I am not an expert on this, nor do I claim to be, which is more than can be said for you regarding Ethernet, and possibly other things. But, regardless, noise coming from the Ethernet cable in a residential setting is a red herring, and if you don’t understand that, you shouldn’t say anything about a topic you clearly don’t know anything about. |
I could say something similar to your knowledge of high end audio- the focus of this forum. Your seem lack of knowledge of the value of better power supplies, better clocking, audio noise like EMF/RFI sources and its mitigation seems evident. While good Ethernet data important, having the components run “better” pays audible dividends. |
Logical fallacy, ad hominem attack. You'll never convince anyone of anything when you "argue" like that. |
I’m a bit amazed at your immature ranting like a stubborn child to proud to admit the possibility they may be mistaken - digging in there heals the more emotionally hurt they are. Ignoring the contrary evidence to avoid other conclusions. Ignoring the possibility that high end audio is a higher requirement than Ethernet data delivery reliability. You’ve drawn the illogical conclusion that “if Ethernet data integrity is assured” then “there is no other possible way to get further ‘audio’ benefits”. |
@kennyc there is no “both sides”. There are facts, and fiction. You don’t know anything about Ethernet, end of story, so you can’t even begin to argue anything, and that is why your comment about noise over Ethernet means nothing, it is fiction, pure fiction. And it is not conducive to continue down this path, like I said, no one in this thread has shown that they have the slightest understanding of streaming and the associated protocols. So that you think it is irritating just actually just funny. |
the reports of the OPs approach is reported across other forums. Early in my research, I looked at the OPs approach but I wasn’t too fond of the extra boxes and cables. Many components allow for the use of an upgraded power supply for performance improvements, there are ample examples. That’s the purpose of the LPS (linear power supply) as it often replaces the noise switch-mode-power supply. Plenty has been written about this as well. If you look into the top components with top parts, chances are their power supplies are also linear. You do realize that the digital info is transmitted on an analog signal that’s susceptible to picking up noise? Ethernet and usb fiber optic motes seem to confirm this by dramatically (big change) dropping the noise floor. Or are you saying that’s also impossible? The friction you’re receiving is because the OP is sharing his experiences and we benefit from additional information. But you interrupt this thread saying the claims are false without any proof other than your understanding on how Ethernet “information” is transmitted, while seemingly neglecting our interest to “sonically” improve the audio by reducing noise passed thru audio cables and reduce digital jitter. Frankly, I’m a bit irritated that I have to explain many of these processes to rebutt your “impossible” claim - you really should have looked at “both sides” before drawing conclusions and especially “before” coming onto threads saying they’re wrong which stifles the flow of information in which we learn and benefit.
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Your post and sarcasm cannot hide the fact that you dont know at all what a " perceived sound" is... To understand this we need at least a theory of hearing... You certyainly know that science had no accepted theory of hearing right now ? Only many competing theories... You think that a sound is an "illusory" subjective quality with no basis in reality...The sound experience is not only and merely about the brain self delusion as you suggest ... It is not also just about the wave medium ... It is a big more complex than that... I bet6 yoy did not read much about this... The sound experience is about hearing real objective information coming from vibrating sound sources... More than that , the sound experience must be learned...It is not a mere placebo effect... Anyway you dont know what a placebo is either i can bet...
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The ears are fine. Expectation bias in the brain is the problem - what our ears hear cannot be easily converted into usable scientific data. That's why a point about something like a spectrum analysis makes sense, albeit at least a real scientific study -- i.e. blind trial type of thing -- about the qualitative aspects of audio with different cables or switches would at least be more reliable. Just claiming you hear a difference? People see UFOs. People buy fancy wine and can't tell the difference in a double blind study. I'm not saying there's never a difference in audio. Science and engineering back up differences in speakers, for example. But science says that audiophile cables do nothing. It's up to those who feel the opposite to provide evidence that isn't just "I can hear it" because your ears are not feeding into a computer, they are feeding into your brain, which has a mind of its own... |
@soix agreed, and even more sad that you don’t understand that you are Giuliani in this case. |
@jji666 actually, you can prove it in this case, just do a full spectrum analysis of the same passage in a song with and without “audiophile” Ethernet cables, or a switch, and if there is a difference you will see it there. and, this has been done, and no difference. |
@soix let me correct you, what you should have said “it is amazing how different the brain can interpret it’s surroundings”. Because that is the truth. No one hears with their ears, the brain interprets sound waves coming, based all sorts of biases, and that is where our hearing comes from. again, it is impossible for an Ethernet cable or switch to improve anything, including jitter. That is not how it works. However a poor switch or cable can add jitter and other issues.
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@fredrik222 It’s amazing how much you can learn when you just use your ears — they’re much smarter than you and your theories are. Jitter wasn’t a known issue when CDs first came out, but people could hear it. Then we learned what it was and how to measure it and it became a real thing. I find it very sad that you and your ilk refuse to just trust your ears because they are the finest measurement devices we have.
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You won't find many in the IT or networking industry (other than those who manufacture audiophile versions) saying that audiophile switches or network cables make any difference. In other words, established science and engineering says unconditionally that they don't make any difference. Is established science and engineering always right? Unequivocally no, it is not. Thus in general there is always a chance that established science and engineering is wrong. BUT, it is also incumbent on those who propose principles that are against established science and engineering to provide proof of their claims, rather than the opposite. In other words, scientists and engineers don't have the obligation to prove you wrong...they do not have to prove a negative...rather the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence, other than anecdotal "wow a veil lifted off" type of stuff. So, do your triple blind study at scale, or show us one, and minds will open.
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@mahgister nice try, however, the people with the made up theories are the ones with the tinfoil hats. And there are a lot of you on this forum. |
@kennyc and others, none of you don’t have the faintest idea how streaming or TCP/IP work. No idea whatsoever. So arguing with you about facts isn’t very conducive.
but here is some empirical evidence, 0 people with actual knowledge of network can hear a difference, and it seems like 50% of people without actual knowledge can’t hear a difference, so what is the probability that there is an actual difference? 0. Regarding the DACs and external “master clocks”: While I am far from an expert on DACs, DACs and network equipment are fundamentally different, do not operate in the same space. Master clocks do not exists outside mixing studios where they are used to synchronize multiple different digital nodes. So calling it a master clock is wrong to begin with. Any pro audio guy will give you this detail, and if all these things actually worked, pro audio would have implemented them long time ago, but these “audiophile” clocks, switches, Ethernet cables do not exist in the pro audio world, because they don’t provide any value.
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@kennyc Thanks for your comments. I spent another evening with the upgrade and sat there completely slack-jawed at the fundamental beauty of the musical presentation. For me to listen to Sgt Peppers for the zillionth time and get new understanding of the lyrics is just a joy. It arrived at the most serendipitous time: when I had just finished tweaking my system to reveal everything. If anyone who gets the OS upgrade does not hear its real sonic benefits, you have some tweaking to do. |
