I finally got a record cleaning machine. First thoughts.
As I previously mentioned, I was given a load of 78 RPM records which are filthy mandating a cleaning device if I want to play them. After months studying the situation I opted to get a Clearaudio Double Matrix Pro Sonic. A lightly used one came up so I jumped on it. Why this machine and not an ultrasonic cleaner? Several reasons. It uses fresh fluid for each cleaning and discards the waste. It sucks everything off the record. Even distilled water will leave a residue if it is dried by an evaporative method. It uses mechanical scrubbing which my instinct prefers over ultrasound. There is an ongoing argument over what ultrasound will do to shellac. The Clearaudio has a reputation for being very well made and it is.
As for it's performance the Double Matrix is fast, quiet and very effective. The fact that it does not drip fluid all over the place is amazing. Records come off spotless and bone dry. You can play them right off the machine. You can tell that each and every function of the machine was carefully thought out.
After cleaning new records that were played once before cleaning, there is no change in noise levels and there is no difference in sound quality. However, there is a noticeable improvement in turntable hygiene! There is always dust on new and old records. I see it when I clean my sweep arm between sides on black felt. Now there is all but zero and everything under the dust cover stays cleaner. THERE IS A MARKED REDUCTION IN STATIC! Vacuum platters will create huge amounts of static under dry conditions but every single record I washed develops none that I can notice. I am not sure why this should be the case but it is. Play a record not washed then static. Play a washed record then no static. The fluid I am using for vinyl records is a proprietary formula of distilled water, Triton X-100, Isopropyl alcohol and benzalkonium chloride. Obviously, this is not the formula to clean shellac, you'd melt it. In one week I am going to replay some of these records to see if the anti static effect is durable or not. My guess is it won't be. You might ask, why benzalkonium chloride? Fungus can live on vinyl. BAK is antiseptic. It also has surfactant properties.
Lastly, after playing 10 records that had just been wash I inspected my stylus under magnification and there was no residue on it meaning that the fluid and cleaning process left nothing in the groove the stylus could pick up.
Next I am going to clean some old really filthy LPs I got with the 78s and see how much I can bring them back.
I have never cleaned new records. My sweep arm collected any dust removing it from the path of the stylus and for decade this worked well. But, I am a clean freak and I like not having to clean the turntable after a listening session. After playing a record, once the vacuum released on removing the record I would frequently get a loud pop or two when the static on the bottom of the record arced to ground. The sweep arm discharged the top of the record during play so none of this affected the sound quality. Static does not turn 180 degree corners. However, it is nice not to have any static at all. So, there are positive attributes to cleaning records that go beyond reducing noise and improving sound quality. It is also fun to watch the Double Matrix do its thing. Worth $6500 for a new one? Only if you have extra money lying around or like buying used records.
I’ve been cleaning records for ~17 years. VPI, then Nitty Gritty, and then Loricraft, which was so good I stuck with it alone for eleven years. The I added a Degritter to use after the Loricraft. I’m quite confident in saying record cleaning is the biggest upgrade possible. Sure, you can buy a brand new superclean record (if you’re lucky, as few brand new records are properly clean) and see the differences in a change of cartridge or tonearm etc. But if you have a few thousand records on the shelves, never cleaned beyond using a brush, it would be harder to hear the difference of new equipment in the chain. That’s why I call it the biggest upgrade.
Even manual cleaning will show what I mean, but with more effort and time expended. Vacuum cleaning is a shocking upgrade, point-source vacuum even better, and ultrasonic is the icing on the cake. I bought several hundred LPs in my younger years, then inherited my brother’s larger collection, and then inherited a colleague’s massive collection. Disks ranging from early fifties, then over-played and much abused sixties pop, to everything bought since. Most of them come out silent after proper cleaning. It is absolutely worth the effort!
@no_regrets, no problem. It is always good to do your research first instead of after. Just make sure whatever you get has a warranty covered specifically by Musical Surroundings. They are the importer. I got the Double Matrix because I was given a collection of 78s and needed something to clean them. I researched the situation for almost a year before I jumped in. The Double Matrix is my first machine. It does both sides at the same time, it uses fresh fluid for each cleaning and rinses the record 3 times during each cycle, scrubbing the record at something like 1000 Hz in between then vacuums the record dry, putting the waste fluid in a separate tank. The Audio Desk is a tinker toy in comparison. Ultrasonic cleaners do not vacuum the record dry. If anything they use an evaporative method that leaves the dirt on the record. If you use one you have to to get a vacuum machine to dry the record. then you can only dry one side at a time. My fluid, by the way can only be used with machines that vacuum dry the record or you will leave to much of the active ingredient on the record. I have not proven this yet but I think the anti static ingredient also acts a lubricant. It is very water soluble but if you rub it between your fingers it is very slippery.
@mijostyn Thank you so much for your reply. It's great to hear from an actual user! I've had my VPI for many years and it has done a fine job. I'm glad that I've had it all this time.
However, I feel like it may be getting tired... like the motor may be getting weaker and so I am trying to investigate now, which direction I should go if/when my VPI finally fails. It may be months or a year or longer if/when that may happen, but I want to be prepared for for when that time comes. In the meantime, I'll be keeping my eyes open for any possible sales. Maybe there will be one at AXPONA this year😀
Thanks again! Oh and yes, when I finally do pull the trigger and if your offer still stands... I'd be happy to take you up on your offer.
@no_regrets, The Clearaudio Double Matrix construction quality is first class. I know because my unit was an open box one that I believe was used in a store. A cleaning solution was used that plugged up the water pump and it died in short order. Musical Surroundings was cool with me installing a new pump which they sent me on warranty. So, I have had my machine apart and know it intimately.
It works flawlessly but it does have a few quirks. The first is, you really have to press down hard on the clamp when you tighten it or the record will slip when the vacuum comes on. I keep my machine down low to make this easy. You obviously have to be careful what fluid you use. Distilled water will not kill the static permanently. To be safe I would use Clearaudio's solution. My mix is proprietary and not up for disclosure as I am considering marketing it. It does kill static indefinitely leaving only the smallest of residues on the vinyl. You just start to see some on the stylus after 10 sides and should clean the stylus after 20 sides using Lyra's solution. If you will write a review on audiogon I will be happy to send you a gallon.
In short, the only regret I have is buying mine open box. I have no problem recommending this machine. IMHO it is the best record cleaning device on the market. Musical Surroundings has top notch service. You can not go wrong buying any of their products in terms of support.
As I was reading this thread, you were talking about your newly cleaned records no longer holding a static charge.
When you first discovered this phenomenon, you were going to try a series of eliminations to determine what may be the cause of this.
You mentioned that you would first try cleaning the record with only distilled water on your new machine to see if the static would be eliminated. I'm curious if you tried this test and what the result was.
Secondly, are you still happy with the Clearaudio Double Matrix Pro Sonic machine? Any downsides that you have discovered after using it now for just shy of a year?
My VPI 16.5 has served me well for many years, but I feel that it may becoming tired.. so I am giving thought to the Clearaudio Double Matrix Pro Sonic machine.
@mr_m@ghdprentice, please look at the picture of the brush on my system page.
You will notice that I slide the little weight all the way to the front the I decreased the VTA by bending the arm just behind the weight so that the brush is almost vertical. This improves both tracking and dust pick up. If the arm stops tracking it need to be cleaned. Alcohol and a clean microfiber cloth will do it. Also you should be able t drop it from an altitude of one inch during play without hearing a thing through the speakers. If you hear a thump you have a problem with record damping/clamping. You not hear ANYTHING even with the volume all the way up.
I have been using this particular brush for some 10 odd years and have been using one conductive sweep arm or another since 1980 or so. This one absolutely works the best even though it is not exactly audiophile jewelry. I have used every singe one on the market including one that costs over $200 and this one works better. (or I would not be using it)
@ghdprentice, yes it is ...cheap. But, it sure beats grinding dust into your record and it does a number on the static issue. There are more expensive versions out there but they are all defective in one way or another. This one actually works.
Thanks for the tip on the Hudson HiFi record brush. I hate it… but it really seems to work. The amount of static related noise that occurs on a fe albums has disappeared. I like simple and elegant… not a second arm stuck to my turntable. But what can I say, it works and was cheap.
The analysis of the bearing stylus load is actually quite complex, and an example of the complexity and loads is addressed in the article Dr. A. M. Max, Disc Phonograph Records, Max, RCA Engineer Magazine 1966-08-09 1966-08-09.pdf (worldradiohistory.com). The forces/pressures are substantial and how can the record survive theses forces, the article states:
There are two explanations of the record's ability to withstand such stresses. One is the size effect in which the resistance to high stresses is attributed to the higher observed strength of materials as the volume or area of the test specimen becomes smaller. The second explanation relies upon the time- dependent or viscoelastic properties of plastics. Plastics, as the name implies, are subject to time -dependent phenomena, such as creep, and its converse, relaxation. Because of these properties, stress waves are damped and do not reach the levels predicted by the Hertz equations.
@lohanimal, I have followed my styluses with microscopy for decades. I even now own a WallyScope so I can publish pictures and I will when time allows. It does not take an expert to see dirt on a stylus. Another point is phonograph cartridges are extremely simple devices and all the math is at least a century old. The only difficulty is all the parts are extremely small and what you can't see is always subject to all sorts of alchemy. You want complicated? Take a look at a GE 90 jet engine.
I just timed the Double Matrix. It takes a second over 2 minutes to clean a record. Actually, it should be clean and treat a record. I mention the fact that records cleaned with the solution I am using will not hold a large static charge but using digitized needle drops on the same brand new album before and after cleaning demonstrates a slight reduction in the back ground rushing noise. Tics and pop are exactly the same. A very small amount of something is being left on the record. I have an idea what it is and I am beginning to think this is proprietary information. What a laugh, me marketing a record cleaning solution. It is indeed a strange world.
@juanmanuelfangioii, The contact area of an elliptical stylus is 20.6 um2. Let's play it at 2gm. That would be 1.5500031 e-9 inches squared and 0.00440925 pounds = 28,451 psi . Now the contact area of a fine line stylus like the replicant 100 is twice that of an elliptical but Ortofon tracks them higher around 2.5 gm which would put the psi figure around 18,000 psi. This is how modern cartridges get away with much higher VTFs than the old elliptical cartridges of the 70's when 3/4 to 1 gram tracking forces were the norm. The bullet would be modern styluses decrease record wear even at the higher VTFs
I decided to start from A and go from there. I used a cleaning method I saw on positive feedback - it’s a 2 stage process and I clean my stylus at the end of a record side as advised by the guy at expert stylus. Life’s too short to build up my expertise on cleaning. I am happy to take advice from someone who is a trustworthy boffin 👨🏫
It's interesting to read all the opinions and theories as well as all the "facts" from the "experts".
I'll stick to my experience. My experience is that the amount of difference the record cleaner makes depends primarily on the record itself.
I have a VPI HW 16.5 vacuum cleaner and a KLAUDIO LP200 ultrasonic cleaner. I've had and used the VPI for a few years. The LP200 is a fairly recent acquisition.
If you buy used records, I recommend a record cleaning machine. You never know what might be on them. There may be very little to no difference in sound quality after cleaning or there may be a dramatic difference. It depends on the record and how it was cared for. The previous owner may have cleaned it or it may have started life as a very clean record and been well cared for.
If you buy only new records, you may still benefit from a record cleaning machine. They often show up in crappy paper liners with lots of dust on them. Sometimes the pressing itself is bad, with lots of noise, ticks, and pops. No amount of cleaning can fix a poorly pressed record. On the other hand, more than once I've plopped a brand new record on the table before cleaning it and have been really surprised at how much better (quieter) it sounded after cleaning.
As mentioned by some, cleaning seems to help with static.
My vacuum machine and my ultrasonic machine both do a great job. There are pros and cons to each.
The VPI cost a lot less than the LP200. It's much faster to clean a record. The LP200 is fully automated, but takes much longer (9 minutes) to clean and dry a record. The LP200 takes up a little less space. The LP200 only needs distilled water, which while cheap, has been in short supply at times recently. The VPI uses special cleaning solution, which is relatively inexpensive. I like the Audio Intelligent one-step #6. Some folks use multiple solutions/passes with their vacuum machines. Both machines are loud. Since the LP200 is fully automatic, you can walk away from it and have it in another room.
As far as my practices, I'm not a fanatic about record cleaning. I always clean used records, other than some from one of my local record stores that cleans their records with a VPI. I generally don't clean new records unless they are obviously dirty or don't sound good on first play. If a record looks particularly bad, I may use both machines, using the vacuum machine first to get most of the junk off and then a bath in the US cleaner. I've been gifted some records that looked like they should have been garbage, but actually played decent after a good cleaning.
For me, there's no one size fits all approach to record cleaning. You certainly aren't going to hurt your records by cleaning all of them before play, but it may not be necessary with all of them. Some may not benefit from cleaning at all. Some will sound dramatically better. As I said at the beginning, it depends on the record itself more than anything.
By way of analogy consider it like plates and cutlery. If you use a plate you have it washed before you use it - likewise same when you use cutlery I assume you clean it after using it.
I must be living a charmed life, because I use neither, and I have LPs that I have been playing for 40 or 50 years
Last week I took a couple of baroque records to a friends place to listen to his new Van Den Hul Grand Cru and top of the line VDH phono stage - both of the records I bought in the early 80's, played a lot ( I use to use one for VTA ), absolutely dead quiet, zero ticks and pops and they have never been cleaned - ever - nor treated for static or anything else.
The calculation is made by estimating the area of the stylus contact patch then extrapolating to the square inch, using VTF as the pressure. The result is a frighteningly high number for pounds per square inch, but the calculation itself is totally bogus. The pressure on the groove is related only to the area of the contact patch and the VTF. The stylus tip is not contacting a square inch of the record surface obviously. As to the absolute requirement for a pivoted record cleaning brush such as the one that Mijo uses and the dust cover on top of that, I must be living a charmed life, because I use neither, and I have LPs that I have been playing for 40 or 50 years, and they are only minimally diminished due to stylus wear. And none of them have more ticks and pops than they did 40 years ago. I am just a careful person, not particularly astute about preventing dust etc. from landing on the surface of an LP. All of this is much ado about very little. Of course I have no way to know about other people’s listening rooms in terms of their dust problems or lack thereof.
@lohanimal, it is something like 35,000 psi. There is no cure. Once a record is ruined it is done. If you are not using a dust cover during play and are not using a grounded sweep arm also during play then what you are doing is for naught. You are still grinding dust into the groove maybe a little less but it does not take much.
Not sure if you've read it - but i assume you know that when a needle goes through a groove the stylus heats up to over 300 degrees. Apparently extraordinary pounds a square inch. That's what leads to record wear and clicks and pops that get stuck to the groove.
As i wrote i have a thorough record cleaning routine and prefer prevention over cure.
I took the advice of 'expert stylus' on this and i think they do know the odd thing or two about cartridges...
@lohanimal, if your stylus is picking up a lot of "gunk" you have a serious problem.
A stylus should not pick up anything, not even lint.
@jerryg123, not true at all. It depends on how the record is dried. I could have gotten any ultrasonic cleaner on the market and spend less than I did. I do not like any of them for one reason or another.
Well my Audio Desk Vinyl Cleaner Pro arrived yesterday, thing looks brand new! Maybe later today I'll try and get it going, he did include a couple of bottles of the cleaning concentrate that needs to be mixed with about 1.25 gallons of distilled water. Once mixed, does anyone know how long it last in the machine?
I mix quart and isopropyl with distilled water for thee first stage then for the second stage isopropyl with a bit of 'wetting' agent.
seems to work - i got it from another forum - in that forum there is a link to a 200 odd page record cleaning book (clearly someone dedicated to his task)
I'm not mega obsessive. That said the guy from Expert stylus advised me to buy a spectacle lens cleaner, and use toothpicks around which a tiny bit of cotton wool is wrapped (a thread) with that clean the stylus between record sides because styli pick up a lot of vinyl related gunk. He said don't bother with fancy cleaners.
I mix quart and isopropyl with distilled water for thee first stage then for the second stage isopropyl with a bit of 'wetting' agent.
seems to work - i got it from another forum - in that forum there is a link to a 200 odd page record cleaning book (clearly someone dedicated to his task)
I'm not mega obsessive. That said the guy from Expert stylus advised me to buy a spectacle lens cleaner, and use toothpicks around which a tiny bit of cotton wool is wrapped (a thread) with that clean the stylus between record sides because styli pick up a lot of vinyl related gunk. He said don't bother with fancy cleaners.
@lohanimal, It has a good reputation but stay tuned. Being the experimental type I am playing with various formulations and ingredients to make an attempt at figuring out what is best. I do know that L'art du son does leave a slight residue because I tried it in a Spin Clean a while back. I always thought that was a big negative but with recent developments it is possible that a very light residue, on the molecular level might possible be of benefit. The records I have cleaned will not collect static and we are now two weeks out from when the first batch was cleaned. I one of those records every Wednesday to see if it will collect static. My stylus continues to stay clean so whatever is left in the groove is non volatile and is not collecting on the stylus. I have better magnification coming with photo capability so I will be able to show pictures. The next question is if I'm leaving something on the record will it build up over time (very bad) or dissolve in the solvent every time it is cleaned. The chemicals I am using are composed of very polar molecules so they very extremely dissolvable in H2O. It is this polar characteristic that is neutralizing the static.
I am not yet sure where I am going with this but it is very interesting and a lot of fun.
I'll be receiving a Audio Desk Vinyl Cleaner Pro X this week from a member of another forum for the price of ..............................shipping!
Seems this was the second Audio Desk he has had. First died and was sent back to Germany, Many months later and big time screwups from Audio Desk he got a new 2020 model. Well, it's starting to act up so he's done. Purchased a high end KLaudio record cleaning machine so had no use for this. I asked about the Audio Desk, sent him to a post on here about repairing them. We started chatting and he offered it to me.
So it "May" have a failing motor, it still works but makes noise. So I'll evaluate it when it arrives. Only have several hundred records here, Might get through all of them. Either way it will be nice to clean my collection. It's 95% thrift store picks.
@ghdprentice, I have a record brush refill pad stuck on the plinth to wipe the brush on after play. Every once in a while I clean them both with alcohol. I slide the little tracking force weight all the way to the front and put a dab of crazy glue in there to keep it from sliding around. Then I bend the shaft at the tracking force weight about 5 degrees increasing the VTA if you will. It holds on to the dust better this way. I'll put a close up shot on my system page!
I bought and love my Keith Monks RCM. It is used by the Library of Congress, BBC, Better Records, etc. It takes about a minute a side. I scrub in their proprietary fluid then suck it completely up with an arm and nozzle connected to a German medical grade pump so powerful that you have to be careful not to pick up the record. But it removes fluid and dirt a track at a time.
When applying the fluid and scrubbing it in you can see the white cavitation.
These are much less expensive than the Matrix. I love mine and always feel gratified as the arm moves across the record and sucks up all the crap.
I’ll give one a try. This problem comes and goes… typically weather dependent. I don’t think I had seen one with a ground before. I used to own a brush without a ground. That was good for pushing the dust around.
I replayed a record I cleaned last week to see if it collected static or not. It did not!
That means something about the formula I used for record cleaning fluid prevents static build up. I cleaned all my Artic Monkeys albums and will follow them along and see how long this lasts. This also means something is staying on the record. I have repeatedly examined my stylus under magnification and there is no noticeable residue. So, whatever is happening is on a molecular level. I have to do more comparing of digital files to see if I can detect any difference is sound and background noise levels. I do not think there will be a noticeable before and after difference.
@4krowme, Yes! That is absolutely true. In the section of plastic duct I have there is a naked wire that travels the length of the duct. Dust is a wonderful explosive! One spark is all it takes.
Come to think of it, I encounter the same static when using my vacuum in the shop. The particles passing through the tube are making this happen. A leaking record would be doing the same thing using the vacuum system.
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