How much does power amplifier really matter comparing to other hi-fi components?
What is the best ratio (out of a total of 100%) in terms of money to put in a high-end hi-fi set containing: 1. CD player/DAC, 2. Pre-amp, 3. Power-amp, 4. speakers. (25% will be assigned to each if the 4 parts are equal). Can we take this as a reference to distribute the budget when buying power-amp?
Looking forward to learning experiences and technical information from audiophiles including hi-fi dealers.
SQ is not proportionatel to expenditure. Allocating expenditure by percentage is not likely to give you the best bang for the buck. Pick components whose sound you really like. Be prepared to dive in deeper if required and spend less on other areas where you don't discover a stand-out for you.
That said, I mainly agree with Pani. Transducers are the area that influences SQ the most, that is record players, digital players and speakers. Money spent there will have the most effect. Then look at amplifiers. For some, room treatment is a must, but it is best not to listen in compromised rooms, some of which remain compromised however much is spent. Wiring comes last. Whatever Miller says, it cannot influence SQ to the extent active components do.
Foolishly, Miller advocates equal expenditure on room treatment and wires. That means you only spend 16.67% on players and on speakers, when if you were more sensible it would be 25%, That's a stonking 50% uplift.
If I had to decide in the restrictive manner proposed by OP (and did not have a compromised room) I would go: 30% speakers, 25% player, 35% all amplification (less if you go integrated), 5% room, 5% wires. And that's generous on the room and wires.
If you are digital believer and only run digital, I would drop expenditure sharply on the player (incl DAC). True converts know that if you have sorted jitter, clock error and have a good DAC, bits is bits, so any decent player will do. Read errors are almost non-existent on every player.
Hello cclee2022. If the power amp limits you, you will not hear the total advantage changing components might give you. So, some might say that if the power amp is not great, your system will not "sing." Conversley, there is less difference among good power amps than there is between preamps and CD players. Power amps are more important than cabling. Pruifi's new amp modules, used by NAD and many others are superb. I use two stereo pair daily.At least as good, and I think smoother on the top end, is the Starke Sound A4-320, I have three of them. They are simply stunning. Home trials are allowed. Check their website. Last year, they put them on a "Black Friday" special. If they do it again, I will order two more. At the regular price (under $1500 last time I checked), they are the best bargain since the Magnepan LRS. On sale they are a no-brainer. I used to build my own power amps, not any more! I use electronic crossovers from miniDSP and DBX. Get the passive crossovers out of the amp/speaker path. You will be suprised! Most power amps have the ability to control the motion of the actual driver diaphragms ("dampong factor"). Coils and capcitors interfere with that. Also, the speaker cables are much less fussy when connecting the amp directly to the voice coils in the drivers. Are you "handy" with tools and small parts? Try the kits from Akitika. Happy listening!
In my experience this is impossible to determine. I currently use an Audiolab 6000CDT with Denifrips Ares ii total recommended retail cost AUD$2300, with Audio Physic speakers and 2 subwoofers RRP cost AUD$9500 and Vincent pre / power amp at RRP AUD$4800. So that's roughly speakers 60%, amps 30% and CD / Dac 10%. The fact is I got the speaker / subs for $4800, the amps for AUD$2600 and the CD / Dac for AUD$2000 so actual was nearer 50%, 25% and 25%. So $ spend is what I aimed for looking at the market and how they each performed and matched. So the ratio depends on the equipment and deals you can get. I have always found bargains in speakers and never paid more than 60% of RRP. In this case my electronics were a rare bargain both open box but clearly never used (both sealed inside boxes) whereas the CD I bought because its great value anyway as was the dac getting about 15% off each. My second system is Audio Physic speakers list AUD$3000, paid AUD$1000 boxed and new (4 years old left at back of warehouse by mistake when they moved store), Naim Unitilite (pre / power / CD/ Streamer / DAC / tuner) ex demo list AUD$4500 paid AUD $2500. So that's originally a 60/40 split at $7000 becoming roughly a 75/25 split on paid price. So making up a fixed percentage is just not possible if you are searching the market as you may buy separates or combined components as applicable/ available.
No opinion can be ventured without an overall budget. Can you spend $10K? Credible products are available in each area for $2K to $3K. If that’s a stretch are you handy? DIY options are out there. Don’t neglect your room furnishings and speaker placement.
Don’t feel higher cost is needed to have a great listening environment. My last and current set up cost a mere fraction of the previous setups this one superseded the others by far
You want to make sure that you don't get a bright or harsh amp, unless you like that sort of thing. A bright, let's just call it headache inducing, amp can ruin the sound of your system.
My recs Peachtree Nova 150 ( 150 for 8 and 250 watts for 4 ohms) clean power Great sound stage! I am using a pair of Elac 2,0/6.2 bookshelf speakers designed by Andrew Jones and are unreal for the price- Jones designed for TAD Pioneer etc These speakers can go forever with great bass clean ,upper end zero zero fatigue!
I had B&W 801 model 80 speakers from 1980. I used GAS Ampzilla, Ampzilla II, Hafler, Marsh 200c, Aragon 4004 II, and lastly a Denafrips Thallo 120w amp. The last amp made me regret all the years I wasted with the other amps. Spend as much money as you can because it will be amortized over many years.
Don’t be fooled by high price some superb gear out now for little compared to the past consider Classic D amp- on my second and thrilled and the room does not cook!
Just to be sure, I asked around. Blackhawk said it is the most important, Moab said it is, F1 of course, Sovereign, Koetsu, right on down the line. Can you believe, every single component insists it is the most important! "Listen," I said, "you can't all be most important!" OH YES WE CAN they shouted back.
I'd believe them if I were you. The Blackhawk in particular was getting pretty heated over it, and the power cords, one went Nova the other went freaking Supernova. I am not kidding.
This is a massively complex question. It sounds like you want to build a high end system from scratch which can be a big job, particularly with the reduced number of dealers. I'd find an audio dealer whose taste runs to your own and begin the work. What kind of music do you prefer, what's your budget, size of the listening room, do you have any pieces already to carry you for a while.... are all things the dealer can use to guide you.
To your specific question, in terms of amp vs. pre-amp I'd put more into the amp. As others above have noted, the amp is tremendously important. Say 2/3rds to amp and 1/3rd to pre. Similarly, I'd spend more on the DAC than the transport/streamer. I agree also with pani that the speakers and amp should be purchased and matched together. Good luck!!
“How much does power amplifier really matter comparing to other hi-fi components?”
Lots and lots.
Lots of variables to consider, particularly speaker sensitivity and listening levels.
Generally speaking, you never want to get even close to maximum power, even with short peaks because manufactures usually specify amplifier power when it reaches 1%
THD. THD often rises quickly once you get close to maximum power, so keeping 10% below rated power is generally fine and is often close to minimum THD+N.
Provided you are willing to always keep the volume control well below maximum, consider a higher rating than speakers as they are can accept term short peaks without damage.
A good starting point, but always check specifications.
I put 1/3 rd into speakers since they are what determines the Sonic outcome and it’s quality in build,drivers,and Xover are what determines its tonal accuracy and naturalness .$10-20k The Source such as the dac $5-7 k is equally important in quality since the music starts there , makes or break the sonics upstream accuracy in the original recording , I feel you just need-to spend more with these 2 areas, while not sacrifice the quality of a good integrated amp, or amp,preamp,$7-10k and very respectable cables around $ 5k in cables for all cables is pretty respectable maybe a bit more ,this is good quality mid Audiophile cost quality , by today’s pricing, if you can afford more that's great.
@questforhifi, Jay compared a Rouge IceEdge 1200 module-based amp, not a Rogue amp which is a hybrid using tube driver and Hypex modules as outputs, just a clarification.
Thank you so much for the knowledge. To pair with an efficient pair of speakers like Raidho XT2, what would be the best proportion of budget for pre-am vs power-am? 50-50, 80-20 split or what?
As for the pre-amp, this is also difficult to put a value on. some ppl with higher end DCS or even something like the lumin x1 choose to skip the pre-amp all together and go straight to amp.
Others will find that the pre-amp is the 'heart" of their system and actually put #1 cost priority to their pre.
I think you should make a decision on the speakers which will be the most important/influential and from there it will be much easier to assign values. If you were, for instance, to enjoy horn speakers and were to go after something like klipsch higher end stuff then you would find that you can save a lot on the amp because so much less power is needed to run something so efficient. On the flipside if your flavor was something more like high end magico you would find that the amp choice is very important and you would need to allocate significantly higher percentage of $ to the amp
So really it starts with the speakers, from there you can start assigning values to the remainder of the chain
In a recent video series Jay compared a rogue audio class D amp to a high end amp. I dont remember if it was duel mono or not because he didnt specify the elite amp, but for sure it was over $30k vs an amp less than $2k. While differences were there, they wernt profound and many couldnt even tell the difference
My point is, Jay’s chain is unreal. Hes using power cords that are more expensive than most peoples entire hifi setups. In addition he has 2x Everest power conditioners as well as Synergistics top of the line conditioner. Then add to it the pre amp, the super high end interconnects, his very substantial electric setup behind the wall, ext.. All of this helped to make up for many of the cheap amps inadequacies as well as color the sound and change the sound signature.
If you were to take the same amps in a more modest setup I’m sure you would hear a much bigger difference between the amps
So to sum up a lot of it depends on the rest of the chain. In a mega high end setup the amps impact is much more minimal as long as the power and current capability is there.
In a more modest setup the amp choice will matter much more.
Matching amps to speakers is a critical consideration. Depending on the 1. CD player / DAC and the 3. Power-amp compatibility; the 2. Pre-amp might be superfluous.
Depends on the loudspeaker. If you have something really efficient, a nice pair of Quicksilver monos will do the job. But if you have Magnepan 20s, the sky is the limit.
25% each is about right. Except you left out wire. Your 25% amp budget is for preamp and amp. I'd go integrated if I were you. Your 25% wire budget has to cover all power cords, interconnects, and speaker cables. Unless you want a really good system and then it should be 20% each, and you add 20% for vibration control and room treatment. Now you're talking!
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