How good's your hearing

As is so often the case, follow the money.   Ask yourself, does the individual bashing something need you to be convinced so he/she can sell you something else?   If their mortgage depends on their ability to make you believe what they need you to believe, you're better off getting  your guidance elsewhere.   And if they can't pay their mortgage selling you a Class D amp, well of course "it sucks".   But what they really mean is that it would suck if they had to live out of their car, so please believe what they tell you.

What I want to know is where can I get an ear cup hat like your grandmother is wearing?  Dare say it would help those of us who have hearing degredation.  May be the best tweak of all.  Just don’t let your buddies catch a look.

For what its worth on this subject:  recently purchased a digital DB meter for under $50 on Amazon to determine where my listening habits were at.  I’m 66 and have lost 20% in my R ear, mostly from hunting as a youth (left handed).  Experts suggest anything above 85 dB for more than 8 hours does permanent damage. I use it to max volume at/under 82db and limit time to 4 hours max.   Also religiously use ear muffs when operating power equipment.  Now its about preservation. 

Listen to a great FM tuner and you will see. Cut off at 15000, by design for other doodads doing stuff up there. Not only are harmonics lost, but so is directionality from frequencies we do not even hear, but that our brains sense and interpret.

Correct, my plasma tweeters which are spec’ed to 100khz, I can bring them in even higher at 15khz and still sense/hear them doing good things for the harmonics, air and transparency even though my ESL are said to good to 20khz

Cheers George

Listen to a great FM tuner and you will see.  Cut off at 15000, by design for other doodads doing stuff up there.  Not only are harmonics lost, but so is directionality from frequencies we do not even hear, but that our brains sense and interpret.

So what is the website of your shop?

These are about as close as the "Lightspeed Attenuator" gets to being a shop


https://forum.audiogon.com/topics/amps-preamps?tab=alltime

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/80194-lightspeed-attenuator-passive-preamp.html

If you need info send me a PM with your email address

Cheers George

So what is the website of your shop?

Where was or is your shop?
Regards
Jim

I don't have one Jim, just manufacture and send direct world wide, 60% to the US.

Cheers George

I absolutely love these speakers. I have been a dealer for Wilson Benesch for about 14 years. I started taking them to the RMAF the first year there was a RMAF. We always had a tremendous sounding room. I think I might have coined the phrase I used to welcome people in by saying " Welcome to our oasis of music " and that is what it was.
I may get a small monitor speaker to use in a small room where I read.

Where was or is your shop? 
Regards
Jim 

soundsrealaudio

What didn’t you like about these???
https://ucarecdn.audiogon.com/27a1f333-d534-4ede-ab06-bab027fea22f/-/autorotate/yes/

I love it george I love it. 

My third Class D amp, the current generation $75 dollar special, is a total giant killer.

Go figure! if Class D amps are categorically as bad as George insists, there must be something wrong with me. Could be!

Must be.
I’ve had my bi-amped high biased (15w) Class-A/B linear power amps now for 8 years of blissful listening. And like I’ve said many times these will become boat anchors when Class-D comes of age, just not yet.
https://ibb.co/TrXx1Nc
https://ibb.co/SK9Jsmx
https://ibb.co/p4T2q9r
The bigger brother of mine.
https://ibb.co/HFTLQmt
https://ibb.co/NKn9Ps7

You’ve had different 3 Class-D’s, the latest 3rd being $75!!! there’s something your not enjoying.

I would love anyone in the NYC area to bring over their class D amps to show me what I am missing.  PLEASE!   Recently had the NuForce amps in my system with upgraded 5V power supplies.  The owner was kind enough to stop by and let me hear them.  He plugged them in and within 30 seconds they were packed back up.  Now that does not mean that others will perform the same way so I am ready to be converted.  I would love to have a light weight amp instead of the heft of my amps.  I am an opened minded person, really.  Please contact me and come on over.

Happy Listening.

Time to refresh your ears by listening to a nad 3020, where quality stereo began.It will change your perception of most new type avrs and digital systems.Love retro!

Youth is wasted on the young. - Old audiophile axiom

It would be very interesting to know the test results of the older mixing and mastering audio engineers.

FWIW...

I'm 55 and played in bands but started wearing earplugs fairly early on so luckily my hearing is well preserved.  Though I can now see it's starting it's more precipitous decline.

I have a mild dip around, I believe, 4k.

But I can hear almost up to 14k, which purportedly puts my hearing at normal for "under 40 years old."  So I'm still doing pretty well.


It sure would be interesting to see hearing tests of all the aging audio reviewers :)

My hearing still measures quite good but I know I do not hear to 20khz as I did when measured back in college. I still can hear all the things on that chart I referenced above, which is what matters.


Still find many systems to be quite bright and or noisy/fatiguing. Usually SS but I’ve heard it recently as well with very popular (here) and VERY pricey high end tube gear at shows recently. It happens!


Regarding my 3 Class D amps (in case one wondered yes I like Class D a lot) , 1 "high end" amp which is a few years old can tend to be a tad bright like many amps with certain speakers known for that in certain rooms of my house. In other rooms, or with other more laid back speakers, not. Some might find this amp somewhat bright in some cases and not at all in others. Nothing out of the ordinary regardless of amp design.

My house was built with in-wall speaker wire run from my office where my main gear lives to 6 other rooms of my house (including outside deck) so I can listen to same system including speakers in many rooms to compare as desired. The room alone is a huge factor in how any setup sounds.


Another newer current generation "high end" Class D amp I have has loads of air  (air=16-20khz, see chart I linked to above) but is also dead quiet and  the least fatiguing amp overall I have ever owned. Every speaker used there is always a total joy top to bottom.


My third Class D amp, the current generation $75 dollar special, is a total giant killer.

Go figure! if Class D amps are categorically as bad as George insists, there must be something wrong with me. Could be!

Take the high frequency test

I heard 18kHz, in fact at the ENT and audiologist's office I heard 19k. I was told I have the hearing of an 18 year old, btw I'm 60.

I have hyperacusis, which means I'm so sensitive to high frequencies that they can cause head pain.
  That's why I need a HiFi rig to produce the true tone of an instrument with no distortion at the top-end. The trend to tip-up the highs on speaker designs and digital remasters makes it nearly impossible for me to listen to a bright system or many early digital recordings.
  Attending live classical performances has not been a problem for me since higher register instruments are producing their natural timbre with an unlimited ceiling.

This is why I agree with @georgehifi that a speaker needs to be designed to 20k and above. This allows accurate reproduction of the fundamental high frequencies plus the harmonics/overtones.

References please.

Serious!!!!  
https://wonderopolis.org/wp-content/uploads//2015/03/1425_3.jpg

Class-D has the most detractors

BS.  References please.  Tube amps often reek.  Class A-B too.  Way more bad ones out there than Class D I suspect.

Did it ever occur to you people that some people, myself included, do not like the sound of Class D?

You and so many others, this happens more so than than with any of the other amplifier topology comparison, class-A v A/B, SS v Tube, SET v PP. Triode v Untralinear ect ect, these have never had such a huge difference of opinion.
  
Class-D has the most detractors, and many of these have tried a few different Class-D amps, and in the end gone back to linear amps tube or s/s, because the "music" was more important than the: size, cost, weight, heat, cost to run.

Those that don’t that can’t hear it and think it’s fine, good for them.

But they ignore the finding of all the ones that do.
https://wonderopolis.org/wp-content/uploads//2015/03/1425_3.jpg

Cheers George

Did it ever occur to you people that some people, myself included, do not like the sound of Class D?   There is no need for me to give my reasons, I just don't like it and many others feel the same way.

a common Class-D complaint, as they have output filters to rid the switching noise that create phase shifts down to 3-5khz.

Probably true of a subwoofer amp, but not any that are meant to run full range.


Typical filters on a class D are 12db; if an 80KHz filter, this limits phase shift to well above the audio passband; of course dependent of the Q of the filter! Essentially though the statement quoted above is false.

ct0517,

Interesting! I took the test at a modest level thru my pc. I couldn't hear the 8000hz, but could clearly hear the 10,000 and 14,000hz tones. WTF.

Marklings
Having said that the vast majority of readers of this forum would not be able to hear anything above say 12 / 13 K Hertz. So any discussion about 100k etc is snake oil.

interesting comment.

now from here...

https://www.musical-u.com/learn/percussion-frequencies-part-2-cymbals/

Typical hi-hats are usually between 300-3000 Hz dominant frequencies, and can extend up to 10-17k Hz for crispness, “air” and sparkle.

A worthy note incidentally, is that many audio engineers insist that even though one cannot conceivably hear beyond 20k, one can feel beyond 20k, which is why they are adamant about capturing ALL the recorded frequencies (especially metallic percussion). They feel that one can sense those “inaudible” frequencies, thus making the recording richer, and more open sounding.

Take the high frequency test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZHWY1KBHwc

George is stove-piped in on technical challenges associated with Class D for some reason. Don’t know what is the agenda. Maybe its similar to feeling resentment towards a beautiful girl that you really like but jilted you in some way? Who knows. Contradictory findings of others do not seem to matter to him. As if that is the only audio technology that still has unique challenges, especially when it comes to making good sound practically affordable to more.


To each their own.  Definitely a bad look though.

He bashes because he has never sat down and actually listened. His agenda is to promote fear and anxiety fueled by ignorance. The emperor, once again, has no clothes. I find it mildly amusing, to a point, and then it’s just pathetic. Change and progress can be very difficult from some.

George. What is your reason for constantly bashing class D? In every thread where it is mentioned, you feel it is your civic duty to protect everyone from what you consider class D propaganda. Can't you imagine there are people out here that like class D?

What do you hope to accomplish? Stop global warming, promote world peace, further humanity?......Or what???

So any discussion about 100k etc is snake oil.

Yes if put that way.

But any tweeter capable of doing 100khz, like my Plasma's can, means it's diaphragm is so light (air in this case) that at 20khz it's distortion will be far lower that anything else, with a weightier cone diaphragm. that's why they sound better.

Cheers George 

I feel like chiming in on this one
Obviously the statement about violin highest frequency 600 Hz is totally wrong. Maybe the misconception comes form the fact that the highest "FREE" note you can play on a violin is E5, the fourth string and is around 600 Hz indeed.

The highest "FUNDAMENTAL" note a violin can produce is around 4K, same of the piano for that matter.

As many have noted it's the harmonics that you lose if freq response is not sufficient.

One thing missing from this discussion: the harmonics are what make up the "timbre" of an instruments. So what you are really missing if you don't have enough high frequency is the "quality" of the sound, what makes a violin sound as a violin and different from a flute or whatever.

Having said that the vast majority of readers of this forum would not be able to hear anything above say 12 / 13 K Hertz. So any discussion about 100k etc is snake oil.

2nd harmonic is double that of the fundamental, so if a piccolo’s fundamental is 4.2khz
2nd harmonic is 8.4khz,
3rd is 12.6khz
4th is 16.8khz
5th is 21khz
6th is 25.2khz
7th
8th
ect
ect

Destroy any of these, and you have destroyed it’s natural harmonic decay, your left with "gaps" in the music, which is a common Class-D complaint, as they have output filters to rid the switching noise that create phase shifts down to 3-5khz. 
Like when you puck a guitar string, it vibrates faster and faster as it decays away, stop it or change it and you've killed the natural harmonic decay.

Cheers George

How about 'sense' it as your mind fills in the gaps? I ask because the harmonics start right where the actual range stops.

All the best,
Nonoise

so if you can hear them, you're not deficient in your hearing. 👍

Not really, you may hear the fundamental but not hear the 2nd 3rd 4th harmonics. 

For some reason I can’t get any links to post now. Just google ’musical instrument frequency chart’ and you’ll see that the violin’s frequency range is from 200 Hz to about 1.3Khz with harmonics out to about 17Khz and the flute is about 250Hz to around 3.2Khz with harmonics out to around 12Khz. so if you can hear them, you're not deficient in your hearing. 👍

All the best,
Nonoise

Why do we need speakers w/20,000 hz frequency response?

One word, "harmonics" second, third, fourth can go well over 20khz.
My Plasma tweeter can go to 100khz!!!! boy can you hear it on harpsichord compared to just the ESL's, the highs just dance in space in front of you, you swear you can reach out and touch them,

Cheers George

I'm 73 years old and I'm sure I'm deficient. But let me pose a question for you experts out there. I just googled up the highest frequencies of both flute and violin and they are around 600hz--just north of that for violin at 659. This begs the question for music listeners. Why do we need speakers w/20,000 hz frequency response?

I will probably get flamed, but I agree with you George.  I have stated many times of the 5 Class D amps I heard, none of them would make me want to buy them.  Course, I'm a Mac guy and like their house sound.  I still think they aren't ready for Prime time.  I think they are good in Subwoofers like in my T Refs, but still have a way to go for full range.  They still sound bright and thin to me.

Thanks for The levity 

My hearing is top!

worn earplugs at my profession for 18+ years. 
 Critical listening is pretty spot on.
i chose my speakers from sound quality. 
They are a VERY warm speaker (highs rolled off at 600)
  when it comes to speakers. I’m good!

Okay so her hearing may be gone. But does she know how to listen?

Like I said she can pick a class-D a mile away.

Okay so her hearing may be gone. But does she know how to listen?

WHAT????

best practice for the fuse trolls.

Their just a small part of a magic circle club, with no EE behind them
https://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/Gtno+reach+around+what+the++_3f623b6faceda241f69b4ee96b034af3.jpg

I think it's getting to the point of nobody cares what you or your Grandma think about class D. Just sayin.....

Ouch!

Just cleaned my ears.  Pretty good!