How good can it get, really? - my stereo sounds amazing!
I really love my stereo currently. I keep thinking I should be looking for the next piece to upgrade - phono stage, stereo subs, etc., but honestly not sure what to change or why I’d potentially spend more money to achieve a result that’s lesser or equal to my current sound quality. I sorta feel clueless as to how to proceed without screwing up what I have. I know it can get better but honestly I’m at a place when I just don’t know how it can. Hmmmmm.... not a bad problem I guess. Open to suggestions for sure. Thx.
audiozenology" I have asked the moderators to deal with a member who has made 29 posts in the last 2 weeks ..."
I do not need you’re permission, authorization or approval to post hear and it is not for you to limit, restrict, or discourage users from expressing opinions, sharing facts, or providing advise to the group or it’s members.
Again, my apologies to the other members. I have asked the moderators to deal with a member who has made 29 posts in the last 2 weeks, 22 of them replies to my posts in a variety of threads, mainly personal attacks. I am doing what I can.
audiozenology"I apologize to other members, but Clearthink has an obsession"
Lets talk about audio and music and not engage insult, attacks, and angry remarks this thread is about speaker isolation. If you continue to attack, stalk, and harass me I will alert the moderators directly this is you’re final alert, warning, and caution.
audiozenology"I think anyone that understands anything about room treatment and acoustics knows that furniture is no substitute for room treatment"
Furniture IS room treatment and you're insistence that it is not shows how again gaps in you're knowledge base is "big enough to drive a truck through."
Perhaps you believe their is fairy dust in you're room treatment products that are shaped like egg-cartons?
Even though your posts is more of your attempt to troll virtually every post I make, at least this time you attempted to make a post related to the content of what I said.
I think anyone that understands anything about room treatment and acoustics knows that furniture is no substitute for room treatment unless you have found a way to:
comfortably sit on room cushions glued to first reflection points
make effective use of a couch screwed to the ceiling
not spilled a glass of wine sitting on a bumpy coffee table mounted vertically between the speakers on the front wall, or perhaps side walls, or back wall (diffusers)
sure my wife gets mad at me times and being a teacher would like to put me in the corner, but I think a bass-trap will be more effective than me in a chair
However, I am sure you are an expert on acoustics and can share with us your expertise to solve the real acoustic problems, that audiophiles face with furniture.
p.s. I know you love that leather chair, but the cloth one will reflect less high frequencies.
clearthink1,031 posts12-31-2019 10:50amaudiozenology"Furniture is not a replacement for room treatment. It can even make things worse"
This "information" is so wrong on so many levels, aspects, and issues that it is hard to know where to begin a good place would probably be that furniture is a kind of room treatment even if that is not the type that you like!
I understood the question of the OP as seeking quite significant improvements to the system. Obviously, I was wrong; when outlets and power cords become the primary objective, then one is merely tuning up the rig, not making great advancements. Adding a couple of subs would be a nice improvement. Make sure to get aftermarket power cords on the system, or else a lot of performance will be left on the table, even with the subs.
I support outlets as improvements, so going that route will make a difference. But, let not the OP think he's really gotten close to the ultimate. No, in absolute terms there are dozens and dozens of rungs on the ladder of system improvement. Maximizing the set of components and speakers you have is a different situation. You can only take a defined set of gear so far, but if that is the goal, it is fun and can be very efficacious.
Regarding the recommendation of those who said essentially, be content; it seems you were right, he does not wish to venture far from his current system. No shame or problem in that.
I never promote foolishness and irresponsibility in pursuit of system improvement. I am a big proponent of contentment, as I give generously to Christian programs, budget monthly (just did so yesterday), and have allocated a consistent amount of funds over the years annually to achieve what I have over time. So, if the goal of the OP is to primarily hang where he is at, there is nothing wrong with that! Typically when I discuss the necessity of spending more, upgrading major parts of an audio system, it is within the context of the performance of the system, not associated with the individual's personal financial situation - unless they specify, which in this case he did not.
Strictly in terms of performance of audio systems, though, I see many audiophiles ignorant of just how vast the performance spectrum is. I think I have answered that question thoroughly enough.
audiozenology"Furniture is not a replacement for room treatment. It can even make things worse"
This "information" is so wrong on so many levels, aspects, and issues that it is hard to know where to begin a good place would probably be that furniture is a kind of room treatment even if that is not the type that you like! Some people "like" the sort of sculpted "egg-cartons" and other "doo-dads" that often is used in official, commercial purpose designed "room treatment" but none of these "treatments" contain any magic, fairy dust, or voo-doo spells and there is nothing worse and I do mean nothing than an overdamped, overtreated, over analyzed room and that is very common when relying on these "professionally-approved" commercial products because the company’s often want to sell you just one more "corner trap" or special "diffusor" thingie so whether using these products or furniture you’re room can be "over-done."
taras22 I agree that carefully selected furniture can help, but this is no substitute for good quality acoustic treatments. Most I build myself, but I did recently buy some of the best quality diffusors for a song and was very impressed. If you have the ability to DIY, then treatment doesnt cost much.
No point around here isn’t worth missing it seems...If your room doesn’t need treatment because its inherent acoustics are fine...not dead, but fine...it might even sound like a room, then don’t worry about it. If you live in a large tomato can or a raw concrete bunker you might need some treatment...in that case treat it. Moss...grow moss. I’ve worked in recording studios and mixed live shows for decades, and I prefer less dead rooms. Removing furniture and CD boxes and replacing everything with sound deadening "treatments" is simply silly, and if you experience a weirdo with cheap headphones without ear pads listening to a walkman in your room, that’s geoffkait...remove him...the sound will improve immediately.
Back at you, Paulgardner. 4. My speaker cables are lessloss c-Marc. I think highly of them. Check their website — they are quite unique.. Their footers (Bindbreakers) are also highly effective. 5. Whether room treatments would help depends on your room. (Duh ...). Books and carpets, books and carpets. Move the furniture around some. Everything else is voodoo, or can be mostly fixed by moving your speakers around. 6. The floor between your speakers and in front of you r components is very sensitive. Worth experimenting with it. I got a very clear improvement by placing a teak chest full of books in that location. Much improved sound staging. . 7. Try shutting down youR power bar or power conditioner when the system isn’t in use. Also, try spraying down the cabling with an anti static,
which sort of makes my point. There is a lot of experimenting that can be done for little or no money.. .
1: Already done. I had some RF feedback issue and replaced the outlet with a hospital grade unit. All gone!
2: I could benefit from some slightly longer speaker cables. I’d like to play with placement a bit but my current cables are just long enough to accommodate their current position. 3: Vibration / isolation is critical! I could see myself playing around more in this regard to achieve better sound across the board. We are in the same page. I like it!
I’m in the same place you are. Ttook twenty years, but I can finally sit back and enjoy what I’ve built. Any further improvement would be minor. Which won’t stop me from trying different things, just that the days of heavy investment are over. Tinkering won’t set me back much. Some suggestions about what to try next, in your situation—-
1. A hospital grade wall outlet— furutech or wattgate. Get one before you even think about upgrading your power cords. They aren’t that expensive. If you can’t hear a difference, no point sinkng money money into pc’s. 2. Are your speakers perfectly positioned? Correct distance from back and sidewalls and perfectly angled and tilted? Experiment with that. Even half an inch can make a difference. 3. Vibration control devices, whether it’s platforms or shelves or footers. My system is loaded with them. Dozens of choices out there. Check out a few.
Oh, geez, people will believe anything. CD jewel boxes, for example, are actually *resonators* and not in a good way. Look, the sound will be much improved taking all the things I listed out of the room, no matter what argument you can come up with that it won’t. If you haven’t done the experiment you really don’t know. 😬
Uhhh, they actually do, though maybe not ideally.....and they can also act as absorbers, though again, maybe not ideally.
Doing a thorough acoustic inventory room is tricky business that often serves up surprising results. The square footage can add up quickly and can be your friend or your worst enemy. Its all about the frequencies attenuated or accentuated by those square feet and in what measure eh.
Without wishing to be overly dramatic or mysterious one of the very best things you can do sound wise is take all the CD, DVDs, LPs and books/magazines out of the room. No, they do not act as diffusers.
Like audiozenology states, furniture is no substitute for room treatments. FACT!
Actually that kinda depends on how and why the furniture was built. Read, its quite easy to design and build sound room specific furniture, and decorating features, that serve a dual purpose, and produce an acoustically correct environment that doesn't scream man-cave ( or cost a mint ).
Right now I'm listening to an Erato recording of Renaissance Music streaming via Qobuz and my Mytek BB. An older Primaluna integrated (new 6550 tubes) and a pair of cheap NOLA Boxers. No tweaks. Cables, etc. commensurate with the rest of the system. No room treatments but a good room with careful speaker placement. The soprano's sound is absolutely delicious. Yeah, I'm happy with what I got.
The quality of your ears, in relation to home stereo, is limited by the best system you have ever heard. Before you hear a system that is a revelation you dont really know what you are missing, nor how your home system compares.
When respondents get on this forum telling you to ignore cables, tweaks and room treatments take a look at their systems and then choose if you should listen or ignore. Many enthusiasts have already made a decision about such things and any communication with these members is casting pearls before swine.
Like audiozenology states, furniture is no substitute for room treatments. FACT!
If you have furniture in your listening room you can ignore room treatment as many hifi music fans do. If you have logic in your brain and reasonable listening chops you can also ignore pretty much everything sold by SR or Perfect Path or any other fringe tweak company, again, as the vast majority of audio geeks do...then, once you've come to a place where you're enjoying the music coming at your ears, you can just buy more of that and relax knowing everything's fine.
Jetter you are spot on about reproducing live event...
My only question about my own stereo system is is it relatively natural timbre sounding? and is it there, when listening, a 3-d holographic stage ?
And yes wlutke all is about some balance...I was lucky, all my almost all homemade tweaks in the last 2 years has driven me toward a better balance...
Then the most important point is stopping to buy and upgrade at a certain point of your audio history, because all good stereo system are all that : good,but the owner most of the times does not know that himself because his room-house-audio system is not cleaned nor efficiently treated against noise etc...And thinking about taking in your own hand, at low cost, your own listening experiments to gain Nirvana is the key...I am there...
Your imperfection is in balance. Upset that balance and you’ll be on the upgrade merry-go-round chasing the memory of happiness lost. Proceed at your own risk.
Respectfully submitted, and really not looking to argue, but I think that one large impediment to advancing an audiophile system is having something more important to ones life to allocate money on.
Also, I just watched the zero fidelity you tube video where he makes the point that before you can decide where you want to be on the audio system level spectrum, one needs to realize that it is impossible to create the sound of a live event. Once you realize that, you pick the "fake sound" (his words) and equipment level that caters to your taste. It will always be the reproduction of music, not the creation.
If one wants to dedicate "x" amount of time and money to achieve his/her brand of the best sound possible, that is his/her decision, but to judge others who can be satisfied with the tone they have achieved is IMHO misguided.
For about five years I was on a tear, upgrading this, changing out that, and I've reached the same point, really enjoying the sound quality of my system, being more "relaxed" about being an audiophile, enjoying the music.
If it sounds amazing, then spend your time enjoying music.
My upgrades in the last 18 months included a new DAC/power supply, interconnects and new speakers. I consider them 'end game' items for me, and will be unlikely to replace them.
Have since embarked on a journey of tweaks and their effect on sound. Some turned out to be excellent, some good, some uncertain.
My system is sounding fabulous, and is exactly what I was hoping for.
Um, if it ain’t broke... don’t fix it? At some point contentment has to settle in. “Looking” for things to improve when things are just find is a rabbit hole at best, and can be an expensive rabbit hole that may not achieve anything at all. As said, stay with it for awhile, be in Zen mode. Nothing wrong with that. If the time comes, maybe look at a major change. New amp, perhaps separates if running integrated, or just keep what you have as your “forever” setup... nothing wrong with that either.
The answer is almost always your room. If it is not your room, then the answer is likely your speakers and how they interact with your room. Maybe it is your amp in combination with your speakers, and maybe you have screwed that up with a speaker cable that attempts to do something unneeded and screws up other stuff in the process. If vinyl is your poison, then it could be your turntable setup, but ... see above.
I think most people are on endless tweak searches because their acoustic fundamentals are lacking. People with well designed rooms with accurate neutral speakers tend to be "happier" than those without ... and usually just listening to other people's system, or a visit to a dealer showroom reminds them how good they have it.
I don't think I've seen any mention of acoustic treatments. Is your room "tuned" at all? Perhaps look at some "art panels" (artwork over acoustic panels) at the first reflection points if possible, or some bass traps in the front corners. I gather (and can appreciate) that you don't want your system to shout "look at me", but it's possible to get acoustic treatments that can provide a noticeable improvement (potentially even significant) while still fitting into your decor.
That said, if you are enjoying your system as is, why mess with it.
mahgister had an excellent post recently on this very subject, which I agree with so well I will now shamelessly steal from. For all the near infinite amount of gear out there it all can be divided into three big categories or classes- budget or mid-fi, expensive, and cost no object. Most of us are in the big middle range.
Now here’s the thing. Within these ranges everything is pretty close in performance. Close enough anyway that working with what you got is a whole lot more cost effective than upgrading.
I learned this decades ago, which is why I agree with Mahgister on this. A $60 set of BDR Cones improves the performance of a CD player better than "upgrading" to a $500 more expensive CD player. A $500 Synergistic power cord will make it sound like a $2500 more expensive CD player. Throw in an Orange Fuse, slip an Omega E-mat under it, now it may not even be possible to find a better sounding player. Sitting on its factory feet with its factory fuse and factory power cord, I mean. Its that big a difference.
But the tweaks don’t have to be expensive either. Anything that gets cables up off the floor will be an improvement. Electrically insulative materials like ceramic insulators work the best, but anything is better so it costs nothing to try and see. Best of all this like many tweaks does not alter your systems precious balance. The good ones simply give you more of what you already have.
Omega E-mats and TPC from Perfect Path Solutions, Synergistic Research HFT, ECT & PHT, Cable Elevators, even things as simple as carefully routing cables to avoid tangles and coils and running close parallel will make a noticeable improvement.
The beauty of this approach, besides getting you off the upgrade merry go round, is it all works with whatever you get if you do finally upgrade something. Do everything mentioned here and you will be amazed. Your system will be transformed, and yet without giving up any of the qualities you love so much right now.
I'm in the same boat so to speak, as far as really liking my current rig...I also think understanding something about why things can sound great without being stupidly expensive is key...great design is what it's all about, and I use some "previously owned" items that have turned out to be astonishing bits of kit, as they say. It's also important to see beyond the proponents of snake oil tweaks as that stuff just muddies the waters.
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