How do SVS subwoofers compare to REL?

Former REL owner here. Get a Rythmik F12. You will not be disappointed. They integrate just as well as REL and you get more for your money. Lower extension and musical, tight bass. I like REL subs but Rythmik is just better IMHO.

I bought a SB3000 and a Rythmik F12G to see if I could get the performance I wanted from my mains (strictly 2 channel).  I liked the SVS because it had an app that made it easy to adjust with my iphone or ipad.  The Rythmik ended up being the better sounding sub in a blind test.  It just seemed quicker and less like a separate part of the system.  In the end I upgraded my mains and am very satisfied...for now ;) 
FWIW I owned a Rel S/3 and would vote it 3rd place.  I think the cheaper Rel's are the Bose of subs. They market themselves as unique but they are not.

I own Magnepan .7s powered by Sunfire gear. 400 watts/channel x 7.

With the Maggie's I round out the bottom end with two SVS PC 4000s and an Earthquake MKV 15 for the rear sub.

While the Earthquake hits hard between around 40-80 Hz, the SVS are ruler flat down to 16 Hz.

The SVS are easily fast enough to compliment the Magnepan.

I'm happy.

I hope this helps.

Div Nanjappa

I have the Maggie 1.7is driven by the Emotiva XPA-2 Gen3 with a Conrad-Johnson PV-10AR preamp.  I have a VERY open listening room - 20ft of open space behind left speaker and 10ft of slightly less open on right. So they sounded good but had no bass impact and depth really at all. As I hadn't expected to buy the amp (one of my bridged NAD214s shat itself before I bought the Maggies and I listen very loud all the time so one 214 couldn't hack it), my subwoofer budget was very limited. I took a punt on a pair Emotiva Airmotiv S10s and, once I got all the setting right for my tastes the whole system sounds just incredible. I have the Airmotivs more-or-less centered behind each speaker with very little phase delay at about half volume and 100hz-ish crossover. Super detailed and impactful bass and the Maggies seem to have better imaging, soundstage, depth, and more of the trademark "soaring" quality. For a "budget" system I think it's superb and my mates are blown away by it.   

lowoverdrive, the SB-2000 is nearly twice the price as the SB-12NSD, so overall the difference probably should be expected.  I once called SVS asking about the difference in these two subs, and the difference between the perceived output of the two per the gentleman I talked with was surprising (in favor of the SB-2000) for only a 100 watt amp difference.  Must be other factors, like speaker design, at play.

Awesome. I’ve had to buy a PS audio P15 due to a lightening strike and it’s msde a big difference in the system. Just did room correction in my new place last week and the results are amazing. The dog is fooled regularly now that there are people, doorbells, and animals all over the house. Music is even better. . . 

Congrats. It’s such a reward when you can get things to mesh! Are you still liking the SVS? Had time to play with any room nodes?

Yes, I am very happy with the SVS SB-2000 and PC-2000. I think those ended up being very good recommendations for me.

I have not played around with room nodes yet. It's on my todo list.
I recently purchased a pair of SVS SB-12 NSD for another room and I expected them to have similar output to the SB-2000, but they seem much less powerful.

Congrats. It’s such a reward when you can get things to mesh! Are you still liking the SVS? Had time to play with any room nodes?

I tried a REL subwoofer and I was not happy with it at all. After trying a couple other options, I am now trying two SVS SB-2000 (in limited edition piano white). I think these will be the keepers. They are a good size for my room, look nice, are very affordable and they sound better than the other options I have tried. I think they make my Maggies sound much better.

I have them set at a low volume. I have not done any adjustment for room nodes yet. But already there is a big improvement in the sound of my system.

NameDrivers10Hz12.5Hz16Hz20Hz25Hz31.5Hz40Hz50Hz63Hz80Hz100Hz125HzJTR Speakers, Captivator 4000-ULF

Dual 18

108112.3116.3119.3123.1126.3127.7128.2127.9127.6127.5126.5ZOD Audio, M.A.U.L.

4x 18

106.2119.8126.2128.6130.6133.1135.8138.3141.4144.1138.3126.2DIY, RE Audio XXX-18D2 Power Ported

Sing. 18

102.3114114.7116.4119.2118.1118.8118118.1118.4118.6118.3DIY, B&C 21-IPAL Dual Opposed Sealed (SP1-6000)

Dual 21

100103.6108.1111.6116120.6124.3127.2130132.2133.4133.8DIY, B&C 21-IPAL Dual Opposed Sealed

Dual 21

99102.8107.4111.1115.2119.7125.2131.9136.9138.3137.2136.7DIY, Stereo Integrity HS24 Large Sealed

Sing. 24

98.2102.1110.2117121.9126.3128.1128.9129.2129.9130.4129.7DIY, Rockford Fosgate T3S2-19 Sealed(SP1-6000)

Sing. 18

97.3101.2106.4111.1115117.8120.4122.5124.1125.5125.8125.3JTR Speakers, Captivator S2

Dual 18

The Current Measured upper end of the beasts. @ 10hz

@bi0drain --

May I remind you there are some Crazier Monsters out there now.. the Marianna 18/ 24 from Deep Sea Sound, the Quad 18 inch S-7201, JTR Capitvator 4000 ULF....

We are getting into some extreme subs... single digit output for all of them.... Someone had to sell a PSA s7201 due to structural issues in their house.

Indeed there are much crazier sub monsters out there that could bring down the house if one dared to stretch their legs a bit. I gather most audiophiles roll their eyes and scoff at such behemoths, while others may crave toying with them - perhaps mostly as an effect. In the face of it and under more "normal" circumstances it could rightly be regarded insane; why would anyone in their right mind want that much power and force in a domestic milieu?

Or, conversely, and perhaps controversially, one could ask why anyone would settle for less? If the objective is not to level ones house to the ground (or be just within reach of it), but to be on top of any sonic scenario imaginable - effortlessly; at any volume, with full force and frequency span - then the idea starts to make more sense. Less important here than to exploit the ability of maximum force and SPL capabilities is how this potential affects the presentation at more sane levels, with larger cones than needn’t move as much to generate the same SPL, and the further upside of a bigger radiation area this brings with it - all while being at considerable more ease.

In practical terms this means the inescapable addition of the subwoofers size, though the sealed iterations will be less physically intrusive compared to its ported siblings - not to mention horns. Price will also see an uptick, of course, but the question is how much will be beneficiary before the "law" of diminishing returns begins its influence. JL Audio’s Gotham series are considered by some among the absolute best subwoofers out there, but they’re also hellishly expensive, not least going by a "dollars per cone area inch" model. The PSA S7201 certainly is much cheaper and with a much bigger cone area to boot, added to a considerably larger footprint, but how will it face off against the Gotham’s in a head to head duel?

Myself I’ll go the DIY horn subwoofer route (with a 15" driver placed inside) later this year. This beast in its specific iteration will sport a mouth area (/effective air radiation ditto) approximately 5x that of a 15" unit, and placed against a boundary be 105dB efficient down to 25Hz. Add (variable) room gain and you have 105dB’s efficiency down to some 10Hz - placed in a corner add 6dB’s. Efficiency is a key word here; with only a few watts this bass horn will close to wreak havoc in a domestic environment, but more important is how this translates into its sonic imprinting at lower levels as well. A diaphragm that moves as little as it does here (for a higher given SPL) will carry with it a smaller degree of inertia, meaning a less smeared, smoother, more articulated and less distorted bass.

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/S7201 = Final Answer for me tho!

Tbh I have an Svs Ultra13 and will be moving up to the 18sc as well...... I have limited space and can’t add a second sub to my config + I just got the LFE figured out room acoustics wise..
As for the color options, I believe color is grill color and the veneer options..... I believe color is the color, and the Veneer is the wood grain..
We are talking about the final answers of lfe wise the subs I listed

I will gladly demo my Ultra13+xa90ps config in Naples fl.

tbh the absolute final answer is that s7201 which I am drooling over but its the size of a small shower. and a giant box(no custom wood)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BKkcebQnaA Edge of tomorrow DTSHD

@bi0drain rain

I would honestly look at the Deep Sea Sound 18 at your pricepoint.https://www.deepseasound.com/products/mariana-18s-18-subwoofer 

Thanks for the link. They list two options for this model: color and veneer. What does color refer to? The cone color or grill color or something else?

I would honestly look at the Deep Sea Sound 18 at your pricepoint.

https://www.deepseasound.com/products/mariana-18s-18-subwoofer

May I remind you there are some Crazier Monsters out there now.. the Marianna 18/ 24 from Deep Sea Sound, the Quad 18 inch S-7201,  JTR Capitvator 4000 ULF....

We are getting into some extreme subs... single digit output for all of them.... Someone had to sell a PSA s7201 due to structural issues in their house.

Sealed Rythmik dual subs. Servo controlled drivers.

Another purchasing tip are the REL Q108 IIs on Ebay for around 300 bucks or so. That model shows up frequently and I found one a few years ago for 200 bucks, but I was lucky. For a single 8" 100 watt design these things are amazing.

Taint thunder you are hearing, its one ( or two) of Richard's subs! RIP
For me, REL over SVS.

I'm not yet ready to buy used equipment. I don't know enough. I'm going to buy new so I can return the item if I make a buying mistake.

Buy a REL and call it a day.
There's an S5 SHO for sale right now for $1750

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8f0d2-rel-acoustics-s5-sho-subwoofer-piano-black-subwoofers

and a pair of S3's for $1200

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8f0d2-rel-acoustics-s5-sho-subwoofer-piano-black-subwoofers

The SHO is the newest more powerful version of the REL S series.

I recently purchased the new bowers and Wilkins DB3D sub. it is one of the most musical sub I have ever heard. It is fast and iron fisted tight.( 2 opposed 8” woofer with a 1K amp. It is absolutely seamless with my speakers. I know it wont get much love here as it is expensive. There are endless software adjustments with this sub. I believe its almost impossible not to get seamless integration with any speaker. 

Here is an Interesting  product that I am looking into.
 MiniDSP 2x4
  info From Audioholics Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq05vAAnryY
It looks very cool and affordable for whatever brand of subwoofesr you may end up with.
On Amazon
$108.00  and the Mic shows $106.00.
miniDSP 2x4 description from Amazon

• Flexible Digital Signal processor (24bit/48k)
• 1 x miniDSP 2x4 Plug-in Software License included
• The miniDSP 2x4 is a high fidelity/high performance A/D D/A converter, crossover, parametric/graphic equalizer and analog inputs /outputs
• USB self powered or DC power supply (not provided)

Also parts express shows a MIC that would work  for $88.00.Lets you manage multiple subs and tweak in all kinds of ways.

In-home trial until you can come to your own conclusion. Both companies you've mentioned will work with you on making sure you're getting what you want even if it isn't their product. I just sent back to SVS their SB-2000 in favor of an Hsu ULS-15 MK2 which was better in nearly every way minus size, but that size includes a 15" driver rather than a 12" that just plain moves more air. It was also producing much more defined, musical bass whereas the SVS seemed better for HT use. I would caution you on getting a sub with passive drivers (T7i/9i). Quality is not the goal in this design, the goal is get more out of a smaller enclosure. Happy hunting! 

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html 

Any thoughts on the Hsu VTF-1 MK3 Subwoofer? It appears to be their smallest.

@jtucker

If you thought the PC-2000 were too big, you'll be shocked by the Hsu, about 5.8 times the physical volume.

OK, I better get out my tape measure and do some careful planning. :-)

I see the enclosure dimensions for the Hsu are 24" H x 18" W x 26" D. That is pretty big -- about 11200 cubic inches of volume.

The PC-2000 are 34" (H) 16.6" (W) 16.6" (D) . It's the height of these that makes them imposing in my room. Although their volume is a bit smaller, they still actually take up around 9400 cubic inches of room space, in my opinion, being that rooms and furniture are generally angular.

Now that I realize this limitation, which are the smallest of the recommended subs?

The B&W PV1D is only 13.5" x 10.6" x 14.1". Is that the smallest of the highly recommended subs? I do believe I have room for two of those as long as they can be close to a wall or corner.

I will also look creatively to see if I have room for one VTF 15 MKII in a corner.

I had an HSU STF-1,no longer made, and was a very nice budget priced Sub!Their Products are well regarded.

If you thought the PC-2000 were too big, you'll be shocked by the Hsu, about 5.8 times the physical volume.

Several years ago I had MG12s, slightly smaller than your 1.7i's.  I felt that a sub was a "must have".  I went with a REL, but mainly because I got a great deal on it.  It did work well with the Maggies though.  I did not have a particularly tough time setting it up.

@a_shah Wow, the reviews on the Hsu VTF 15 MKII subwoofer are very positive. The price is great. I like this suggestion.

What is the cost of other components you mentioned (and where would I find them)?

1. Odyssey Kismet Stereo amp custom made for 1.7i by Klaus for two channel listening

2. Don Sach’s DS-2 preamp

Thanks

Hi,
one sub woofer nobody seems to mention is the Dr. Hsu VTF 15 MKII
I have the latest Magiie 1.7i, I took the advantage of getting SVS subwoofers on 45 day trial plus a Sumiko and the VTF 15 MK II which really is 5 subs in one with a 15 " driver. Maggies  are bit tricky to blend with any subs most owners  seem to prefer the REL but I have no experience with the REL's however I am very very happy with the HSU VTF II it can go down to 16HZ if you have the equipment to run it I use it in a sealed mode with Don Sach's DS-2 preamp and Odyssey Kismet Stereo amp custom made for 1.7i by Klaus for two channel listening   most of the time I can feel the sub it hits you right in the chest on low note very tight ! or you can feel the vibrations on your seat ! in a HT system it can rattle the windows without sounding boomy ,

@axememan

Have you hooked up your PC-2000 Subs yet?Just curious as to what your thoughts are on how they mix in with your room?"

I have not hooked them up yet...

Mini Water heaters" is what my buddy calls mine..I really Like them tho..Can you put your bookshelf speakers on top of the Subs?Just to give everything a whirl? The Port is coming out the back and not the top on those subs.

Water heaters, indeed! Honestly, I was shocked by the large size. Unfortunately, they will not fit my room. Looks like I will have to return them and get something smaller. I'm not sure how I missed the fact that they are so large. I guess I focused on the "compact footprint" statement in SVS's description on their website.

@m-db Thanks for the very helpful info and the product links! I will do the homework :-)

lowoverdrive OP103 posts01-23-2018 4:13pm
EDIT: The miniDSP products look too complex for me right now. I'm just learning about all this stuff. The Antimode 8033 is really simple to use.

lowoverdrive, There is absolutly no reason to fear DSP. In the case of the JL Audio and the Velodyne both can be used as any subwoofer without even using their DSP.  

The Velodyne offers four levels of prompted setup and a very clearly written step by step manual: 
1st is the Place & Play and only suggests doing a Crawl Test to optimize placement.

2nd is the Self-EQ requires connecting the microphone and pressing the automatic program button which is essentially what the Antimode requires except there are no extra cables to connect or to locate and power another component.
 
3rd is the Auto-EQ requires the microphone and the Sweep Tone CD be played during the program running. This very simple procedure that adjusts all the parameters in 15 minutes. After this step you may choose to investigate step four.

4th is the Manual-EQ which requires the completion of Auto-EQ and connection to a TV or a Windows Setup Program. This program will display your main speakers in room frequency response from 200Hz and the response of the subwoofer. Its also the program that allows you to customize the six remote control presets. This is one of those things were the first time you do it takes a few minutes and after that its a breeze.

The JL Audio ARO procedure requires some manual adjustments using a recording with "deep bass content" and having and assistant adjust Polarity and Phase as you listen before Applying Automatic Room Optimization (ARO) as you follow a procedure.

Both 10" JLAudio F series and Velodyne DD Plus may be the most capable subwoofers for their small size.      



 

Have you hooked up your PC-2000 Subs yet?Just curious as to what your thoughts are on how they mix in with your room?"Mini Water heaters" is what my buddy calls mine..I really Like them tho..Can you put your bookshelf speakers on top of the Subs?Just to give everything a whirl?The Port is coming out the back and not the top on those subs.

Lowoverdrive, your doing your homework. 

Because of all the unique variables you'll encounter with your room, your system, and your personal taste, suggestions can be both helpful and a crapshoot. It seems a few here have peaked your interest in digital signal processing (DSP). In my experience as an audio hack DSP is the most important and helpful aspect of dealing with extra low frequency within a listening environment. Despite the convenience of DSP learning the best placement locations within your room will dramatically reduce room nodes and provide that sense of room lock that, I think, many refer to as speed.  

There are two standout manufactures both using their second generations of onboard DSP. The JL Audio Fathom series with its Automatic Room Correction (ARO) uses five parameters of adjustment and the remote controlled Velodyne Digital Drive Plus series with its Auto and Manual EQ Optimization uses eight parameters of adjustment and six programable preset programs.

As wellemj pointed out they both use a listener positioned calibrated microphone, a method of providing low frequency sweep tones, and a very user friendly program that automatically adjusts their onboard parameters to flatten their output at a desired location/s. Unlike the the very capable Antimode these offer the ability to override and manually tweak the auto adjustment. The adjustability of either offer a very high level of mains integration and the ability to satisfy your personal sonic taste in extra low frequency.

Your homework assignment: go to both manufactures sites and study JL Audio ARO and Velodyne's EQ Optimization differences and as a means to compare the growing number of new DSP offerings setup procedures. Then consider purchasing one 10" version of either brand and slave the DSP'd signal to a used inexpensive second subwoofer. The investment in either of the latest JL Audio or Velodyne versions should bridge you through any need to upgrade the DSP sub for some time.

 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/subwoofers-jl-audio-fathom-110-pair-available-2018-01-17-home-thea...

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/subwoofers-amazing-compact-subs-2018-01-24-home-theater

I don’t believe you can have speakers too big for any space.

Well, I just received the two SVS PC-2000 subs I ordered, and I think they are too big for my space! I might have to send them back and get something smaller. Seriously. I am shocked at how big they are.

How do you control all that sound? ...

Your solution sounds sophisticated and impressive. It will be a while before I have the time to invest in understanding an approach like yours. I admire it, but I need a simpler solution while I continue up the learning curve -- otherwise, I might as well stop listening to music and use my time to go back and earn a degree in electrical engineering. One day I might do that, but for now, I want to take simple steps while I focus mainly on enjoying my music :-)

I started this music hobby to shift gears and turn my brain off from work.

I run Magnepan 20.1 speakers supplemented by two Kinergetics SW-800 and two SVS 16-Ultra subs. All this is in a studio apartment and has eerie 3D sound, I don’t believe you can have speakers too big for any space. SVS makes great subs which are built like tanks and have great control. I recommend getting four smaller sealed subwoofers rather than one large one. The sound advantage gained from being able to control the room nodes is better than the few octaves gained with a more expensive larger subwoofer. How do you control all that sound? Use Room EQ Wizard to measure the room, speakers, and listening positions and plug the data into Multi Sub Optimizer and let it crunch out crossovers, timing delay, and signal inversion. Add that data into a Mini DSP running balanced connections to everything and you will have musical bliss. Good luck on your project!

- Steve

while I cannot add to the above suggestions do to my lack of electronic knowledge, I would like my questions answered. I am currently testing Rythmik L12 (entry level) subs. I have connected the left channel from sub to left out channel of AR SP6 using a Y splitter. The other end of Y  rca splitter goes to left channel of amp. I repeat the procedure for right channel. My speakers are Magnepan 1.6. 
Am I loosing sound quality using this connection as compared to high level connections to my main speakers?
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Ed

@axememan Thanks for the suggestion. The BEHRINGER ULTRA-DI PRO DI800 looks lnteresting.

I mix live shows for world class musicians, and if their "pace" or "timing" is off they may have been drinking, however that rarely happens (see "world class"). PRAT came along as a catch phrase implying "generates toe tapping" or something and I actually DON'T get it, illustrated by my discussions with impassioned Linn salesmen years ago (ironically I own a Linn)…if it sounds good, it's good, and pace, rhythm, and timing are the same damn thing to me (see Grumpy Old Man). Attack could possibly mean dynamics for which there is already a word…dynamics...unless it implies throwing beer bottles at the performers which may actually be necessary at times. I understand playing behind the beat, on the beat, rushing the beat, being in the pocket, being out of the pocket, pocket lint, mono dynamics (common among many modern guitar based bands), regular dynamics, and dynamos…and in comedy, timing is everything.

@wolf_garcia What is technical about pace, rhythm, attack and timing ? If you do not believe ( as in speed ), that is ok, but, these are real, when dealing with live music, or reproduced music. I would think, with your background, you would " get it ". Peace out brother.

"PRAT" is another useless pseudo technical term I've not liked since it showed up some years ago. I'm simply a grumpy old man, and I like it.

DI800 additional info
Here are just two special features that differentiate the DI800 from most standard DI boxes:

• Maybe you'd like to connect your guitar amp's speaker output to your mixer? Not a problem, the DI800 features a -30 dB attenuation switch, allowing you to connect to speaker outputs (up to 3,000 Watts!) and convert them to balanced XLR outs.
• Got a weak incoming signal? The DI800 has a +20 dB switch, which really comes in handy for boosting low-level input signals.

Of course, the DI800 provides a LINK output for easy connection to other equipment, such as onstage amplifiers and monitor consoles. Servo-balanced performance guarantees ultra-flat frequency response, and the gold-plated XLR output connectors provide reliable, low-noise operation. Per channel ground lift switches eliminate ground-loop hum problems. The DI800 does everything a standalone DI can do - times eight!

• Professional and multi-purpose 8-channel direct injection box for stage and studio applications
• Provides impedance and signal matching for the direct connection of instruments to mixers and amplifiers
• Ultra-flat frequency response due to servo-balanced operation
• Optional mains or phantom-powered operation
• Allows direct connection to speaker outputs with up to 3,000 Watts

DI800 description

This might possibly work?
BEHRINGER ULTRA-DI PRO DI800
will accept speaker level inputs up to 3000 watts
They are around $120.00.

@axememan Yes, I think that's what I'll do -- get two of the SVS PC-2000 subs. :-)

My immediate concern with any SVS speakers is how I will connect them since they do not have speaker-level inputs... I"m sure I can come up with a solution. Currently, I use a 2-channel amp that does not have a sub-out. I connect my sub with its speaker-level connections.

Since I will probably be adding the Antimode 8033, I wouldn't be able to continue using speaker-level inputs on the sub anyway.

Willemj mentioned that I'll need an attenuation cable. However, I have not found where to buy those yet or figured out exactly what I will need... the answer is probably straightforward, but I just need to do the research first. Once I figure that out, I will order the subs.

Dual Subs are they way to go for sure and,
Cylinder Subs by their nature are very rigid.
SVS has been helpful on all of the Subs that I purchased from them[3].
Plus,Cylinder Subs look COOL. .
As for the PC2000 Subs [Love Em],
if you can go up the food chain I'd say go for it!
More Power and all of that.
The PC2000 Sub is not to complicated tho and offers a great Bang for your Buck!
Especially off of the clearance area.
I didnt mind the Little Scratchs on mine at all.

The term " speed " is quite real in the audio world, whether applied to subs, speakers, amps, etc. It is part of prat. It is one of those attributes I listen for in any component. When talking about the subject concerning speakers and subs, the room and speaker/listening position plays an important part. Amps, and other parts of the system, are a different matter. 

Well, lucky for you I haven’t made my all encompassing declaration yet…I simply am noting the fact that woofers get the same signal and respond at exactly the same time as main drivers regardless of the material they’re made of…there’s been talk of aluminum being "faster," etc., which simply isn’t true (ask a bass player) and as has been noted, it’s generally room nodes that are excited by varying degrees by bass although I will say some woofers might be TOO "bassy" by design (that’s what you’re talking about I think)…thus making them seem bloated…like me (just ate too much and now I’m "slow"). I will give you a 30 day pass to use "slow," although after that there’s a 2 point penalty unless the use of the term is explained in a rambling pile of nearly useless verbiage like this.

wolf, i might well fall into the lazy reviewer camp (and we might be getting into a semantic debate), but i find "speed" a useful  description for a sub--to me a fast sub connotes absence of bloat and decay; likewise the ability to react to the signal without obscuring it. thus i characterize martin logan dynamo and svs i've owned as fast subs and some of the paradigm and others i've owned as sluggish/slow.