How come Horn + woofer designs are not more popular?


A couple guys on my audio discord really love the JBL synthesis 4367 and feel that all traditional 3 way tower speakers suck because they have poor bass response and are generally shy sounding. What I wonder is how come the majority of speaker makes do floor standers that are 3 way as oppose to the Horn +woofer design of JBL?

Is there any downsides to the horn + woofer design? Can a horn convey microdetail as well as a Be tweeter like say from magic A or S line? They claim 3 way floor standers are just trendy. But is there anything more to it then that?
smodtactical

Mijostyn wrote: "there is a compromise in a two way horn system that is difficult to get around. You either have to run a woofer up into the midrange or make a very large horn to get down to where most woofers do well."

Done right, I don’t think there is any compromise to performance.

I’d like to address two myths about prosound-type woofers, such as might be found in a horn system:

First, people mistakenly think big woofers are inherently "slow" because of the cone size, when in fact a good prosound woofer has such a powerful motor that its motor-strength-to-moving-mass ratio is competitive with, and often superior to, small high-end midwoofers (5" Scan-Speak Revelator and Illuminators, for example). The 10" prosound woofer I’m working with at the moment has a motor-strength-to-moving-mass ratio competitive with a 5" Scan-Speak mid.

Second, people think a big cone cannot have a smooth response. The truth is that the accordion surrounds on prosound woofers do a better job of damping cone breakup than half-roll surrounds do, such that plus or minus 1 dB before EQ is possible up to the crossover region on a studio-quality pro woofer, and without nasty spikes in the response north of the crossover region. (For example, look at the Eminence Kappalite 3015 and imagine crossing it over a 1 kHz... the woofer Peter Noerbaek uses in the speaker linked in his post is in that same ballpark).

And here are some of the advantages of a using a good prosound woofer in a horn system:

- Because the large cone has a relatively narrow pattern in the crossover region, if the speaker designer so chooses, it is easy to match the woofer’s pattern with the horn’s in the crossover region. This is virtually impossible to accomplish with cones ’n’ domes. The result is, a good horn hybrid speaker (meaning horn + direct radiator woofer) can have an audibly seamless crossover.

- The relatively narrow pattern of a big woofer + horn system means that less off-axis energy is going into early reflections. According to researcher David Griesinger, early reflections are the ones most detrimental to clarity, so this characteristic of horn systems promotes clarity.

- If the designer chooses to use a constant-directivity horn, the reflections will have nearly the same spectral balance as the first-arrival sound, which promotes natural timbre and freedom from listening fatigue.

- Prosound type drivers are free from compression effects in a home audio application, which is not true of most moderate-efficiency high-end drivers. Musicians use dynamic contrast to convey emotion, so a good horn speaker conveys the emotion in the music better than most conventional speakers.

- Many horn speakers are compatible with specialty tube amps, such as Output TransformerLess (OTL) and Single-Ended Triode (SET) types.

- Set up properly, you can actually get a wider sweet spot with a good horn system than with any other type I am aware of.

The inevitable tradeoffs are large enclosures (lower WAF) and less low-end extension than a comparably-sized speaker of lower efficiency.

For those who think modern horn systems still have coloration issues, but are open-minded enough to do a little reading, you might google "JBL M2" or "Dutch & Dutch 8c". The speakers Peter Noerbaek linked to are essentially a hot-rodded version of the M2, and imo they are magnificent.

Duke

My Klipsch Heresy IIIs with powered subs (2) have the benefit of accurate and controllable bass (independent of the Heresy IIIs anyway), and having not tried a horn loaded home speaker in many years (been using various horn loaded PA speakers for pro live mixing work for many decades), I was surprised at both how NOT "shouty" and actually linear these speakers sound...they will immediately show weaknesses in the signal chain so best (obviously) when used with good gear behind them, so get that right and these things sound beautiful.

BIGKIDZ "I built a few custom horn speakers and used Sony Alnico woofers (only 2 pair in the USA). I bi-amped them with custom tube mono-block amps that I built (1.5 watts) to drive the horns. They sounded amazing but they wee large so no WAF. I never could get the bass to keep up with the horns though. My buddy has Klipsch and why the mids are excellent, the bass always lags behind. Do not know his model but he has had them modified."


You should take a listen to a horn with a powered bass.  I am not sure who else does this, but Rethm has powered bass that is designed to keep up with horns and the result is audio heaven (IMO).  So if you get the itch for a horn speaker again, there are options that may satisfy your bass issue, and the wife

Once you have listened to a properly designed Horn with a State of the art compression driver behind it - there is no way you can listen to a 1"dome tweeter again. :-)

https://pbnaudio.com/m25-loudspeaker/


Good Listening

Peter 
There's a charm to a good horn.  Like driving a vintage car.  Sure performance isn't the same as a sports car today, but there's something sweet about it.  Keep in mind, good sound is ALL subjective. Even concert halls sound different.  Instruments sound different. 

I love horns and I love non-horns.. Depends on my mood.
Horns - They're not more popular because they sound terrible, the reason is that simple. 
Two words: too big.

If not for tube amplifiers there would probably be little need for this typically high efficiency design in most homes. High efficiency potential is the key advantage. Pro audio involving larger spaces is a different story.

I built a few custom horn speakers and used Sony Alnico woofers (only 2 pair in the USA).  I bi-amped them with custom tube mono-block amps that I built (1.5 watts) to drive the horns.  They sounded amazing but they wee large so no WAF.  I never could get the bass to keep up with the horns though.  My buddy has Klipsch and why the mids are excellent, the bass always lags behind.  Do not know his model but he has had them modified.


Happy Listening.

Oh, back on topic, there is a compromise in a two way horn system that is difficult to get around. You either have to run a woofer up into the midrange or make a very large horn to get down to where most woofers do well. I do not think there is a satisfactory middle ground. Look how large a K Horn midrange horn has to be just to get down to 500 Hz were it crosses to a 15 inch woofer. This is one area were that ESLs have a major advantage over both horns and dynamic speakers. You can easily design a speaker that is One Way all the way down to 100 Hz as long as you can live with the size. 
Good speakers play everything well and make bad recordings sound better even if they are not as good as the best recordings. There are good examples of every type of speaker (except the Hill Plasmatronic.) Mostly what you like depends on what you were exposed too. If you have only heard crappy horn speakers that is the opinion you will have, same for ESLs. Most people have dynamic speakers because they are easier to build, can be more aesthetically pleasing and are generally smaller than the best examples of horns or ESLs. My problem with most speakers is that they are hard to integrate into a normal size room acoustically. The room and speaker are a system. Some speakers will never sound good and some rooms will never sound good. Thinking about my self I go with what I have learned to work with and know I can get to work to my expectation in my own room. Making mistakes gets far too expensive at this level and I have already made enough of them.
I feel the speaker choice is relitive to the music.  I like Klipsch Forte and Hersey for what I feel is a more in your face rock hard speakers.  These can take some punishing while preserving the original detail.  The new JBL's have been on my horizon, as they look and sound tasty.  
I have a pair of Rethm Saadhana, a beautiful (in sound AND looks) horn speaker with built in powered bass modules, so you get great bass that is well matched to the horn output. Those interested in horns should listen before deciding as I think many would be big fans.
Comparing a quality horn speaker with the PA horns mounted on the poles around a sports field isn't really apples with apples me thinks.Yes, some horns distort and some box speakers sound like, well, boxes.There's no mystery. Good designers whether it be horns, boxs, planars, or electrostatics, design to manage their strengths and weaknesses.
I think modern horn speakers are getting pretty good at getting rid of the honk and beaming which have long been the criticisms thrown at them. But the market perhaps hasn't given them the chance yet to prove the point.
I've tried a lot of traditional speakers and really liked all of them at the time I had them. Each was an upgrade and evolution of my system. I now have Avantgarde Duo horn hybrids and I'd never go back. But that's me.

@shadorne wrote:  "Horns tend to have an uneven radiation pattern with frequency."

It depends on the horn.  Many horns (such as tractrix or exponential) tend to have a wide pattern down low and a narrow pattern up high.   Often PA horns have a constant pattern in the horizontal plane but then the pattern narrows aggressively in the vertical as we go up in frequency.  But some horns have very uniform patterns across their passbands.  Radiation pattern control is actually the main reason that I use horns, but they are a specific type:  Constant-directivity, waveguide-style (the latter term signifying that they don't use diffraction or slots as part of their pattern control).   

"[Horns] can be perceived as shouty or unbalanced."

Good waveguide-style horns don't have this problem.  The "shouty" thing is often a characteristic of diffraction horns especially at high SPLs.   Most PA horns are diffraction horns, and most people's primary exposure to horns has been crappy PA systems, so most people think horns are inherently shouty, but that is not at all the case.   Horns that are shouty are ones that have been optimized for things other than sound quality. 

If any of you will be at T.H.E. Show in Long Beach in early June, stop by room 519, especially if you would describe yourself as someone who "hates horns".  We'd like to have a go at shifting your paradigm.

Duke

dealer/manufacturer

Horn speakers distort sound.  Some love this--go to a typical 150 db (exaggeration except for YES!)  rock concert and there are a million horns. 

Go to a ball game at the local VFW or where they play summer American Legion ball and listen to the announcer on the horns mounted on the poles around the field.  You will see what I mean!  By the way, Legion summer ball is amazingly good!

Cheers!
Horns dont sound more like real music, they sound like horns. Just like dynamic speakers and planar speakers dont sound more like real music. It is simply a issue of priorities. Each design has its merits and intrinsic difficulties. I doubt that my priorities are such that I will ever own a pair of horns.

I might add that any speaker that isnt revealing of bad recordings I dont think is a good speaker.
The JBL Studio 590 speakers were fantastic speakers and a real bargain but JBL stopped making them.
I lived with a pair of JBL Array 1400s for about a year, they did some great things but were very unforgiving of bad recordings, I overall prefer my Revel 228be. 
Horns tend to have an uneven radiation pattern with frequency. They also have a comb like response especially at higher frequencies. This can be perceived as shouty or unbalanced. It changes the tonality due to the variable off axis response.

That’s a lot of “who shot John”. Another way to say it is “horns sound more like real music”.......

Oz


Horns tend to have an uneven radiation pattern with frequency. They also have a comb like response especially at higher frequencies. This can be perceived as shouty or unbalanced. It changes the tonality due to the variable off axis response.
@roberjerman- The 7’s bass system was designed by Mila Nestorovic. Should you ever need/want another, perfect pair of that Speakerlab system’s 10" woofer(W1048P), I have them(w/ butyl surrounds).
@mrdecibel : Eventually I will try the Speakerlab 7's with my First Watt F5 clone (Tim Rawson- built). 
Presently have them connected to a Bryston .5 preamp and 3B amp. SQ is truly excellent for a 30 + years vintage system! 
I have a pair of Speakerlab 7’s that I found at Habitat. $100! A four-driver system - 12" woofer, 10" upper-bass, 12" midrange horn and 6" treble horn. Sealed cabinet painted flat speckled black. They look like a Heresy with an extra woofer on the bottom. And sound way better (I also have a pair of Heresy’s). Superior bass and much smoother mids and highs, thanks to the plastic horns! I am glad I found them - great for rock! I will sell the Heresy’s before the Speakerlab 7's!
The 4367s are great but most audiophiles don’t want them in their living rooms because of their size and looks.

Klipsch is doing a great job making their horn speakers look cool. Nobody would confuse them for DJ speakers. 
I like horn speakers, but, not everyone, and this is ok. It is obvious the folks you are speaking about like horns. JBL makes horns for the home and professional market, and there are many more companies as well. What sounds good to us ? Each person needs to decide for themselves, and this is done by listening, comparing, and determining, what it is we like. And yes, horns can deliver the details, that are in our recordings. Enjoy MrD.