The goal of capitalism isnt the success of the individual above all else. There is no goal per se. The principal simply states that if left alone, the markets will eventually correct themselves, and the true value of an item will be known through supply and demand, and that includes the value of labor. However, humans can never truly leave the markets alone, and we legislate to cause behaviour we prefer. The tax code is an example of trying to legislate behaviour. for instance, why have an interest rate deduction for home mortgages? Because we want people to own homes in the belief that home ownership has other desireable benefits. We could just as easily allow deductions for rent payments, as they do in Canada.
Of course, no country in the world operates in a pure economic theory. Its all a mish mash of what went before plus what we hope will work in the future, along with what some got away with. |
Not to bring religion into this discussion, but at church this week the guest speaker was talking about American history and how people thought about things around the time of the original 13 colonies. Basically, he pointed out that even though it sounded like it was all about equality what they really meant was equality for those that were part of the elite class. Evidence for this was the fact that blacks were only counted as 3/5ths of a person for voting (there were more examples). There's always been a mindset that not everyone is equal even though we all are guilty of considering certain types of people less than ourselves. He also pointed out that there is nothing in Capitalism about helping others. Keep in mind that this guy has served in the armed forces and isn't a "nut." His point was that Christian's were ingoring their call to help the less fortunate and instead were relying on the legistated help (i.e. wellare) that will really never work.
I guess how this concept ties into this discussion is the trickle-down effect somewhat requires people in the "elite" classes to set things up such that the less fortunate have the opportunity to benefit from the economy or the overall wealth. With the goal of Capitalism being the success of the individual above all else it's unlikely that the people in power would ever set things up to benefit those that they consider lower than themselves. It's basic selfishness.
By the way, his point wasn't that something was wrong with the government, but that anyone claiming to be a Christian should take an active role in supporting those that were less fortunate rather than relying on others to do it for them. |
Certainly, I wouldnt suggest anyone should go into debt to finance a hobby. That's a sure way to stop enjoying it. I also find that I am beginning to care more for the aesthetics and functionality of what I buy than I did in the past. I have always liked the sound of my Oracles and I think they are the best looking turntable ever. My Sotas are probably just as good, maybe even better in some respects, but they just dont have the same pizzazz, even my African Rosewood plinthed model. I guess I am moving away from my black box look in components to something that looks like it is worth what I paid for it. I doubt if I will ever get to the ultra high end stuff though. |
All of sudden, WHAM! I was hit by what Hotmailjbc says. The vitriol was amazing. I think what you saw with the economy shutting down, was due to greed. I do think the obvious age discrimation that exist in hi-tech needed to be dealt with(by having a union?). I see this latest attack on the middle class was aimed at the upper sections of it. What happens to one segment of us, happens to us all. BTW, no one believes the trickle-down theory of economics. |
No car payment, no house payment, and no credit card payments. Never put anything on a credit card that you can't back up with cash.
That leaves some cash to have fun with audio. |
I remember reading in an audio catalog some 35 years ago this phrase: "Remember, the VW Rabbit is cousin to the Porsche 911 and it's still fun to drive."
My advice, which is probably worth every penny you are paying for it, is to establish a budget that you can afford -- today, right now, given all the challenges of living in NY -- and then invest the time to pick the gear that is most satisfying at that price point. Being able to listen to music reasonably well reproduced is much better than riding an on-again, off-again merry-go-round that leaves your home silent too much of the time.
There are plenty of products out there that punch well above their weight class, and you should make it a personal quest to find the ones that work for you.
Happy listening |
Eight kids, in our time. Impressive. |
Wow! Politics, audio equipment, cash flow and tax's all in 1 thread! Impressive. Back to the main theme, I solidly middle class, put 7 kids through college and have 1 more to go in a few years. Both my wife and I work and I've put together what I consider a super system, all from buying and selling here, for not a hugh amount of money. I love BOTH the equipment AND the music! I love researching, waiting, buying, setting up, listening to, cleaning my LP's, streaming from my Mac, dusting my needle, you name it. I think most of us here enjoy it all and at varying amount of $$. I always think this; My sound is probably 90-95% better then most, and 5-10% not as good as the top, that's perfect with me! I also budget myself to saving for what I want, then just waiting for it to be priced for me. |
It's the music. After the SF Ballet performance, we loved listening to jazz being on KCSM FM in our car. My wife says," isn't great we have so much music in our lives." Wow, she is in touch with music. She was right. Music is the car radio was getting to our hearts.
The point to me was that live, car radio, iPad buds, stax ear speakers, our home systems, it's the music that moves all of us.
Chill out on the moving up. Spend more on the live music or recorded content. You'll enjoy this hobby more. |
Ebm: You love to get a rise out of us.
LOL. |
Love spending loads of cash on my system!! |
daned ,, i didn,t start it. but you are right.. only audio from now on. |
I'd be happy to discuss politics, economics and/or religion with any of my bretheren, but I doubt it can be done in this forum. So back to the original post. Yes, you can achieve most of the best for 5k, especially if you go used. Once you get the major flaws taken care of in the equipment, there is as much to be gained by setup, room treatment, etc as there is to be adding another 5k in equipment upgrades. The laws of diminishing returns always play a part, and to some extent, personal preference. I mean, what is the sound of an electric guitar ripping a riff? Depends on the amp and speaker its being played through. So for me, who enjoys classic rock, I need a system that can play loud, quick with full range and excellent dynamics. A string quartet listener might want something else, and dynamics may not be an issue. You have to get the basics right, and then start chasing the edges of what can be achieved. |
Man this thread went all over the planet.
I want to rant about something.
I am tired of those holier than thou people who insist this hobby should be about the music not what it's played on. Frankly then please do us a favor take your ipod and earbuds and enjoy.. you will save a fortune. Why even visit this site with its emphasis on costly gear costly for most of us anyway. This site is only in some part about music appreciation, but I think it is much more a site for people interested in sonic reproduction, improving their systems, buying and selling mostly "Hi End" equipment and talking about it. If you want to just talk about musical content there must be a million sites that concern themselves with that.
Like I said, just buy an inexpensive big box store reciever if you don't like earbuds get Bose speakers and play whatever it is that you want to torture yourself with.
To be sure though know this one thing. Gear does not need to be expensive to be good. It is not a money pissing contest for me.
I want what sounds good, the equipment is a critical part of optimizing my enjoyment.
Sure if your favorite tune gets played on a car radio of even as muzak your mind can fill in the blanks and you can enjoy it but again people wake up this is an AUDIO site meaning that which you can hear not only what is being played. Gumby GdDammit!!
End of rant now back to global politics instead of addressing this poor guys dillemna. I guess a shrink isn't covered by his insurance. |
Well, the fact is, that when the Bush "temporary" tax cuts went into effect, charitable donations declined. If they were left to expire, taxes would still be about what they were when Reagan left office (Reagan actually ended up tripling the national debt).
Does anyone here ever think about "the good old days, the golden years", maybe the 50s, early 60s? The tax rate for top earners was above 90%, and that included the Eisenhower years. These days, there are loopholes and off shore strategies that make the actual rate lower for those who can take advantage. Multi-billion profits in one quarter, and Exxon Mobile pays virtually no taxes.
No one is against the American dream, work hard and enjoy the fruits of your labor. But the playing field is not level, and the "redistribution of wealth" goes both ways. Power from money influences policies that help a small group of Americans funnel earnings to the top. But now hard working mid and lower class earners, white and blue collar, have been devalued, the spoils only going to the richest. There was a time when a skilled tradesman was appreciated and could provide a decent life for his/her family.
Those with means provide better opportunities for their children, nothing wrong with that. But millions of young people have never been given a car by their parents and sent to college. So many people get a job because they or their parents "know somebody". Simply stated, not all Americans enjoy the same opportunities.
If too much regulation makes an unfair socialist state, recent events teach us that too little leads us to financial ruin. Evidently the "invisible hand" that guides the economy tends to get a little grabby when left totally unchecked.
Since the Reagan years the country has been shoved to the right. What was once considered moderate is now called liberal. That is just a fact. The government looking out for the welfare of all it's citizens, not just those with power and money is not socialism or communism. There is a middle ground, not just a black and white choice between free enterprise or socialism. |
To be honest, and I may be mistaken but I realy think the rich in the US don't pay enough taxes. These are the state taxes in the Netherlands.
€0-19,000 33% tax
€19,000-55,600 42% tax
>€55,600 52% tax
and then there are also provincial en local taxes. To me this seems like a fair system. The average income before tax is about €33.000 in the Netherlands. I earn about that much. I strongly disagree with Manitunc, I think you live in a ivory tower. |
Is it better to be poor in the US or "middle class" in India, China, Vietnam, Mexico, slew of African countries, etc. . .? In most cases, the poor in the USA still live a more comfortable life than the middle class in many of these alternatives.
Even the poorest in the USA have safe drinking water, public safety, access to education, access to technology (free in most communities via schools, community programs and libraries).
Trickle down does not always come in the form of cash!
Just take a look at what our President has been promoting this past week - high speed internet access to all! The fact that this is even a topic of relavence says a huge amount about where we are.
For those that don't believe that trickle down works, take a look at charitable contributions and where (from whom) they come (the nice aspect here is that this is not government forced but individually selected for what is typically benefits of their community - whether seen as local, state, federal or the whole planet)? Take a look at the tax rolls and who pays what percentages of taxes?
I am all for incentifying the "poor" and assisting them in their efforts to get ahead. Many people need a helping hand sometime in their lifetime (not always financially) and I support those that have the capability to extend a helping hand to do so. We are all better off when our society as a whole is better off. Society as a whole is better off when all the individuals can sustain for themselves - through education, hard work and great effort. |
May I withdraw my question?
John |
To be honest, and I may be mistaken but I realy think the rich in the US don't pay enough taxes. These are the state taxes in the Netherlands.
€0-19,000 33% tax
€19,000-55,600 42% tax
>€55,600 52% tax
and then there are also provincial en local taxes. To me this seems like a fair system. The average income before tax is about €33.000 in the Netherlands. I earn about that much. I strongly disagree with Manitunc, I think you live in a ivory tower. |
I was once given some good advice early on.. if done right, $5K will take you 98% of the way there, and you can then spent another 100K on that last two percent.
Absolutely go analog. Cover your basics with a reworked vintage tube amp. Get a quality TT with a decent cartridge.
Buy high efficiency speakers, and remember that there is no substitute for a bit of size. Passive woofers will always give you better detail on the lower frequencies.
Use common sense.
Buy a sub with a 15 inch cone. Most bass players used 15 inch cones in their amps. Play back through what they used.
Horns sound better played back through horns such as Klipsch.
Make your own wires with thick 10 gauge stock wire you get at the hardware store. Forget fancy nonsense, power conditioners and other silliness.
Then just focus on your vinyl collection. Enjoy the hobby of finding good slabs of vinyl and focus on playing good quality recordings. Learn about the best pressings and remember that 180 gram new remake releases on vinyl are a total scam. Original pressings almost always sound better.
Anything remastered digitally in pro tools is going to just sound like a CD pressed on vinyl. Don't fall for this nonsense. Buy a $20 clamp and kiss 180 gram away.
The sound engineer on the album is everything. Train your ears to understand that compression kills.
It's about finding your favorite artists. Second about how they performed, third about how that album was recorded. 4rth about the pressing, 5th about the condition of that particular piece of vinyl.
Spend your time in the vinyl shops, not the audiophile gear shops. |
Absolutely, a countries overall wealth and financial condition is based on a strong middle class, but that is achieved by the poor rising up, not the rich being dragged down. Unfortunately, many in America have decided that they are entitled to live a middle class lifestyle, without really having to earn it. It seems that in America, the middle class is the lowest financial class we are willing to accept, almost as a birthright. It used to be that we were proud to achieve financial success. Now it seems we have to apologize for it. At the same time, we seem to have a class of doolittles that expect the government to provide them with that which they are unwilling to work for themselves, and do it by taxing the very people who have worked to achieve something for themselves and their families. Classic redistribution of wealth, which when forced, is something I just can't agree with. I wont apologize for any financial success I have achieved, and I dont expect anyone else to unless they have committed a crime to do so. |
JDoris,
Yes both can be true if you only consider new financial wealth, rather than the distribution of existing wealth through socialistic programs and other means. |
|
Ever notice when you hear "sink or swim!". it's always coming from the guy in the boat? |
02-10-11: Syntax
"Does an owner of a 25K turntable has to feel guilty, because it was made for 3.5k and the rest of it is all mark up?"
Definitely : YES IT'S ME !
(actually is a 26k euro TT)
But this kind of wisdom comes later.
Not when you are 26 years old & just "want the best".
(...and M. Gindi points the way...) |
Does an owner of a 25K turntable has to feel guilty, because it was made for 3.5k and the rest of it is all mark up? |
Its true that that the countries with the leading economies over the last century have enjoyed the benefits that go with being on the leading edge.
The rest of the world is in teh process of catching up now!
The earth is only so big and can sustain so much.
I doubt that the entire world can eventually live like those that profited from teh industrial revolution in the US have.
We'll have to reach a happy compromise somewhere.
The internet changes the game in terms of enbaling people to be informed. Hopefully we continue to use it way more than we abuse it. |
02-10-11: Manitunc
The problem in the world is that we just cannot sustain the standard of living that was enjoyed by our middle class that consisted mainly of our baby boomers. At that time, the world was our oyster, and it was easy to spread the wealth around. But now we have a world with an exploding "middle class" that would be considered poor by our standards, but much better off than they were 20 years ago. I believe that we will have to accept a different definition of what it is to be middle class, and that does not include a car for every driver, a flat screen for every room, and houses many times the size we need. When it is considered to be poor to be making less than 50k for a family of 4, something has gone off kilter.
i don't dispute the changing economic position of the u.s. versus the world, but the problem in this country is concentration of wealth. any economy is worse off when there is a concentration of wealth because it is more important to the welfare of an economy to have a strong middle class than it is to have a few wealthy people. you will find billionaires in many otherwise poor countries but the reason why the countries have so much poverty is that there is no middle class; all you have is a few extremely wealthy people and a lot of poor people. my previous criticism was directed at people who think all is well just because they can afford to spend $50,000 on a power amplifier. |
Paperw8 wrote: "Of all the new financial wealth created by the American economy in that 21-year-period, fully 42% of it went to the top 1%. A whopping 94% went to the top 20%, which of course means that the bottom 80% received only 6% of all the new financial wealth generated in the United States during the '80s, '90s, and early 2000s (Wolff, 2007)." Manitunc responded: The problem in the world is that we just cannot sustain the standard of living that was enjoyed by our middle class that consisted mainly of our baby boomers. Could both of these be true? John |
The problem in the world is that we just cannot sustain the standard of living that was enjoyed by our middle class that consisted mainly of our baby boomers. At that time, the world was our oyster, and it was easy to spread the wealth around. But now we have a world with an exploding "middle class" that would be considered poor by our standards, but much better off than they were 20 years ago. I believe that we will have to accept a different definition of what it is to be middle class, and that does not include a car for every driver, a flat screen for every room, and houses many times the size we need. When it is considered to be poor to be making less than 50k for a family of 4, something has gone off kilter.
Oh, and we could take all the money that the top 5 percent have, spread it around, and make no difference to the lifestyles of most of the rest. And dont get me started on the 50 million in America who dont pay any federal tax at all. |
Palasr, sex is no BS. And you can talk about it in a polite company. Just need to know how. |
02-09-11: Raymonda
Paperw8, your statement is overly simplified, off the mark and just plan wrong.
maybe the following report will clarify your understanding: http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html note the following comments following figure 5: --- "Of all the new financial wealth created by the American economy in that 21-year-period, fully 42% of it went to the top 1%. A whopping 94% went to the top 20%, which of course means that the bottom 80% received only 6% of all the new financial wealth generated in the United States during the '80s, '90s, and early 2000s (Wolff, 2007)." --- one of the problems in the country today is that there are too many people who can only see the world as it appears to them - if things are ok by them then that means that things are ok period. it's just not that way in the real world and today's ok-for-you may be tomorrow's not-so-ok; i mean, there are a lot of former white collar workers who thought that things were ok in the 1990's who are now 99'ers. i suspect things don't look so ok for them today. |
Paperw8, your statement is overly simplified, off the mark and just plan wrong. |
02-09-11: Ckoffend
To say trickle down economics hasn't worked in the US is a bit naive. The perfect example that it has worked is by looking at the poor in our country - those that get by and plan to live off the government. These, the poorest of the poor in our wonderful country, have a standard of livings many 10s of times better than the "working class" in many other countries. Here in the US we do not know and understand what being poor truly is. The truth of the matter is, even the poor in our country throw away and waste more money than the world's truly poor make in a year. This is a sad statistic on both sides of the proverbial ocean.
but to say that trickle down *has* worked is simply stupid. the past 30 years has seen a massive shift in wealth to the top 5% of the population. at the same time the middle class has declined and the population of the poor has increased. no sensible interpretation of economics can take a concentration of wealth as evidence of a "trickle down" effect. |
To say trickle down economics hasn't worked in the US is a bit naive. The perfect example that it has worked is by looking at the poor in our country - those that get by and plan to live off the government. These, the poorest of the poor in our wonderful country, have a standard of livings many 10s of times better than the "working class" in many other countries. Here in the US we do not know and understand what being poor truly is. The truth of the matter is, even the poor in our country throw away and waste more money than the world's truly poor make in a year. This is a sad statistic on both sides of the proverbial ocean.
We should all be thankful for ending up in a modern society, in a country that does take care of its poor and has enough left over to try to assist other parts of the world. Countries and individuals that strive to be as well off as our poorest citizens. |
Manitunc - What you're describing is somewhat how Focal is using an in-house automated production to manufacture the Chorus line of speakers. They share some of the technology of the more expensive lines, but you are not paying for them to be hand built. Their manufacturing capability also allows them to build new speakers quickly from start to finsh making the fine tuning of a final product easier. Focal wanted to maintain control of their products while reducing the production costs. |
Satisfaction in this hobby can come from understanding quality vs quantity. Price is rarely an indicator of the former, after a certain point. There are savings to be had from mass production, even in the high end, while one-off items or low volume will necessarily be more expensive. A PSB Synchrony One is a speaker that will compare favorable with almost anything under 20K because PSB has the use of state of the art facilities at the government anechoic chamber in Ottawa Canada and builds its speakers in China by the boatload. Same goes for B&W and probably KEF. Magico, on the other hand, builds far fewer speakers and must make a greater percentage on each one, as well as probably taking more time to build per unit, with more costly materials and labor costs. Doesnt make them better than a PSB, although they probably are, but it does make them more expensive.
Look around, read and most importantly listen, and you can put together a fine system for less than 5k, especially on the used market. |
don't be a fool with your money is the general advice. however, from what i am reading it appears that that is exactly what you have been. for some people it makes them feel good to spend $50,000 on a power amplifier. if they've got the money and it's burning a hole in their pockets, the spending it on the power amp is all good. but when someone spends that kind of money, they aren't buying for value. this audio stuff is like artwork: how much is a painting worth? well, how good is it? the answer to both questions is highly subjective. furthermore, once you have shelled out the cash, you have a vested interest in convincing at least yourself that the big money purchase allowed you to realize breathtaking levels of "transparency" that you could have never realized with less expensive equipment. there is a certain "emperor's new clothes" aspect to this stuff. that's high end audio in a nutshell...
the difference between high end and "mid fi" like nad and rotel is that in high end audio equipment the makers spend a lot more time designing equipment that colors the sound in a way that is presumably pleasing to the listener. so if you look at published specifications, it would be difficult to tell much difference. since high end audio is about coloration, the difference is more likely to show up in phase response charts, the kind of stuff that is rarely published.
you see some of these virtual systems that look like they are in specially designed rooms, complete with acoustical treatments. i'm figuring some of these homes have to be 5,000+ sq. ft. to allocate that kind of space to a dedicated listening room. then then load it up with several $100,000 worth of audio equipment. first of all, if you shell out that kind of money, you've got a great sounding system - cognitive dissonance would allow you to recognize no less - you don't shell out that kind of money and tell people: "i guess it sounds alright".
secondly, you can't beat room acoustics. i mean, audiophile talk of wanting to recreate the sound of live performance but if you go to a live performance at a large arena, the acoustics (and sound) are often terrible. so if you are going to shell out big cash it's probably not going to make a whole lot of sense unless you have an acoustically conceived room. but if the room is so acoustically good, you could just as well load it up with rotel or nad components and they would also sound good. in fact, i think that the room acoustics make a lot more difference than the differences that you would perceive in equipment. |
@Johnnyb53 this is true :) |
02-08-11: Thegoldenear
Wall St Bonuses, mine is coming in two weeks. Oh wait Wife wants a patio something we dont have, ... Which reminds me: Q: What's the difference between a penis and a bonus? A: Your wife will blow your bonus. |
Yes please...
Let's close this topic here with this bitter wisdom. |
Wall St Bonuses, mine is coming in two weeks. Oh wait Wife wants a patio something we dont have, but we have a pair of Thiels :). Adamd1205 - I 1st heard the Thiel 1.2 in 1992 I didnt get to buy mine until 2007. Some of my other eq was gifts from my wife before the KIDS came, or a few years ago I quit smoking and put all the money over a years time into a strong box hence my Primare CD21 and TT. It takes time and alots of research and listening to everything you can so you dont waste your hard earned cash. I think its more about taking your time unless your talking about 40K mono blocks.
Good Luck. |
"so I'd propose that discussion about audio equipment is nothing more than a tasteful way of discussing money, politics, religion and sex..."
Brilliant!
And the reason that music is seldom part of the discussion. |
Ironically, audio discussion are very similar to duscussion that happen on relligious forums. Nobody ever convinces anyone of an alternate view and there's not way to tangibly prove who's right or wrong or if there's even a distinction. Audio costs lots of money and the marketing is often not much different than the lies spurted out by politicians. Finally, paying the retail prices of most high end audio gear is the equivalent of getting screwed so I'd propose that discussion about audio equipment is nothing more than a tasteful way of discussing money, politics, religion and sex... |
Yup, this thread violates the sanctity of at least two of the four topics one ought not discuss in polite company: money, politics, religion and sex. It's all BS and opens a nasty can of worms... |
Everyone is different. Some people have children and big expenses, but also have correspondingly big incomes. Ordinary middle class people like myself look forward to tax refunds, other unexpected windfalls, and birthday and Christmas gifts. Also, selling old equipment to finance new stuff. I also buy 90% of my stuff used. |
Hotmail, it is bad enough this thread has de-volved into nothing but a rant about the cost of living in NYC. Throwing in the political crap is just making things worse. It doesn't matter to me if you follow Chairman Mao or Barry Goldwater, but can we keep the topic somewhat on audio instead of politics? There are lots of other forums where everyone can argue politics. Audiogon is what we make it. |
And most people who live in Manhattan don't even bother with cars regardless of income. When they want to drive somewhere they just rent it.
But, hey, Acura is better then Honda Accord, and Lexus is better than Toyota. Both feel like bucket compared to most BMWs. |
@Jyprez:
For a NYC reasonable fee, I will help you find a satisfactory rig! ;-) |
Many people can justify driving an Acura instead of a Honda Accord. For the difference, you could buy a very nice sound system. No one will think you're crazy for buying the Acura, and Acura's spending a lot of money on ads to drive that point home.
Still, if you don't care what people think, you might get more pleasure out of the sound system. |
