If to go for mid range magic, why not the Spendor Classic series?
Home demo. ProAc D48R and Spendor D9
I am in the process of a home demo. of the ProAc D48R and Spendor D9 from different dealers.
The ProAc guy says it is well run in and the Spendor guy says only about 90 hours on them.
First off, love the D48R so far, midrange to die for & the bass, lots of bass, perhaps a tad too much. Not sure yet, vocals , treble from that ribbon is exceptional.
The Spendor in comparison is not bad at all, I think a bit better definition in the bass, not as full as D48R , seems just as deep, but more tuneful to me. The midrange is OK , it seems to lag behind the ProAc only just. The upper midrange/treble to me is a bit of a let down. For example acoustic guitar seems slightly less crisp, less involving compared to the ProAc.
Question for any D9 owners out there, how long did they take to fully run in ? I assume I am not hearing now what their final run in sound will be like. Will the midrange/ treble open up more, like D48R more, or is the ProAc ribbon tweeter that much better ?
The ProAc guy says it is well run in and the Spendor guy says only about 90 hours on them.
First off, love the D48R so far, midrange to die for & the bass, lots of bass, perhaps a tad too much. Not sure yet, vocals , treble from that ribbon is exceptional.
The Spendor in comparison is not bad at all, I think a bit better definition in the bass, not as full as D48R , seems just as deep, but more tuneful to me. The midrange is OK , it seems to lag behind the ProAc only just. The upper midrange/treble to me is a bit of a let down. For example acoustic guitar seems slightly less crisp, less involving compared to the ProAc.
Question for any D9 owners out there, how long did they take to fully run in ? I assume I am not hearing now what their final run in sound will be like. Will the midrange/ treble open up more, like D48R more, or is the ProAc ribbon tweeter that much better ?
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See this lengthy review and the size of the room. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/harbeth-monitor-40-2.25222/ Also, I heard the 40.2's in a regular-sized hotel room at Capital AudioFest, and they sounded very good. I went back 3 times. Sure, they will perform even better with a larger space, but the 40.2's won't overload as much as the 40.1's. The owner at Deja Vu was actually more concerned about distance to side wall, he thought 2 1/2 feet a minimum. Compared to the 40.2, I heard the Classic 100 in a totally different system, different room (different country!). Some general resemblance, perhaps a little less forgiving, perhaps a little more dynamic/exciting...but it could just as well have been the other components. Strong preference for 40.2/30.2 over SHL5+, so the question is, does the Spendor 1/2 follow the corresponding Harbeth model. Judging by this thread, very few have auditioned. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-new-spendor-classic-1-2 |
I currently own the D30RS and all I can say that they exceed my expectations by far first they sounded a little bit blur,weak dynamics and laid back after a very long break-in they are now wonderful their ribbon twitters give very natural life like highs,the mid is superb detailed and the bass is powerful , punchy and accurate on of the best I ever heard .the soundstage is huge and the sound is very natural . I think the D30RS will work very well in your size space without overhang bass that the D48 might do. Didn't hear the D7 however one of my friends who considered to buy them heard them at high end show and was very disappointed. |
I’m afraid it’s a closed room. Not sure what is the significance in this context of the fact that the D48R is easy to drive. Isn’t it a matter of too much bass extension, exciting some room modes (say, below 30 Hz) that other less extended speakers wouldn’t touch? Because if this is all the problem and, let’s say, D30RS extends to 30 Hz and D48R extends to 20 Hz, then the problem would only be apparent with recordings with significant content between 20 and 30 Hz - and there’s not a lot of it in the music I’m listening except for the symphonic (occasionally) and organ music. I have a feeling that I’m on thin ice here... Also, can this "too big a speaker for the room" problem be addressed with some room treatment? All this guesswork is worrying me as this is not the kind of expense I’m likely to be able to repeat in the foreseeable future. Some people recommend mini monitors like Dynaudio Special 40 for a space like mine, others are cramming Harbeth 40.2 and the like and declare themselves very satisfied... Finally, to return to my original question, between D30RS and D7 what would you choose for piano reproduction and why? I care a lot about timbre and especially that tactile, percussive quality of the upper range of the piano I tried to described above. |
Would the big bass of the bigger speakers also muddy the midrange at moderate to low volume levels?In a small room there is a potential that bass would muddy the midrange at moderate volume.The thing is, the ProAc D48R is very easy to drive. I posted my experience from this weekend where I brought the $89/pair Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers into my main listening room to see how they fair with good ancillaries. While they punched too much above their price range, on similar CDs, I had to raise the volume to 11'o clock position for them, compared to somewhere between 9-10 o'clock position for the ProAcs. I believe, the D9s are also similarly sensitive.But if your room has an "open" layout, the bigger speakers might be alright. This means, you don't have a closed room, but your audio room opens to a kitchen or living room or some other room. We have one gentleman on this site who owns a D40R and has been very happy with them as he has an open layout. |
I did listen to Harbeth 30.2, but it was with an amplifier I believe was not up to the task, a Sugden A21SE that seemed underpowered to me and an accompanying friend. I want something more dynamic and with much better low frequency extension. I liked the Spendor SP2/3R2 much more (but with a much stronger and expensive Densen amplifier, to be fair). Would the big bass of the bigger speakers also muddy the midrange at moderate to low volume levels? ThaNks again for your assistance! |
Understood. Unfortunately, the space I have is not very large - about 23 square meters with a height of about 2.3 meters. I can get about 0.5-0.6 meters between the back of the speakers and the (long) wall behind them with the speakers spaced about 2 meters apart (inner edge to inner edge) and about 3 meters between me and the front baffle of each speaker.I think the mistake you are making is you are considering the ProAc D30 and Spendor D7 as small. And it is a big mistake. When I auditioned these 2 loudspeakers I was amazed by how much "larger" they sound compared to their size. Both these speakers produced low range frequencies with amazing speed and definition.The bass did not sound like "column of air" being thrown out to "sound like bass", but real low bass. With the way you mention about the positioning of loudspeaker in your room, these can go down to 30Hz without much struggle. With your configuration the D48R and D9 will overload your room and you will regret the purchase even though you may be able to afford them. To further confuse things, I’ve read somebody prefered the mids of the D30RS to those of the D48R, stating that the midbass driver is better in the D30RS.Like I said, the D48R needs breathing room. If they don't get it, yes, the midrange can become muddy. In this case one should not blame the speakers, but rather blame their choice of speaker knowing their room limitation. Based on your "music diet", I suggest that you listen to some Harbeths and Sterling? (not sure, looked like a box like Harbeth, but many screws on the front when you remove the baffle; heard at AXPONA 2017).Looks like you are based somewhere in Europe, where ProAc, Spendor, Harbeth are much cheaper than the US. |
Thank you very much guys for answering so quickly! I can say that the larger speakers get the sound "closer" to the original. But one thing to remember is - for a piano recording to sound "like a real piano" on a large loudspeaker, you need to provide them with enough room to breath. The smaller D30 and D7 also do piano very well, but the "scale" is different compared to the larger loudspeakers.Understood. Unfortunately, the space I have is not very large - about 23 square meters with a height of about 2.3 meters. I can get about 0.5-0.6 meters between the back of the speakers and the (long) wall behind them with the speakers spaced about 2 meters apart (inner edge to inner edge) and about 3 meters between me and the front baffle of each speaker. I know most would point out that the smaller speakers are more appropriate for this room, but... I’m not listening loud, on the contrary sometimes, and I would like to have good bass down to 30 Hz with the better mids the larger speakers are supposed to offer. To further confuse things, I’ve read somebody prefered the mids of the D30RS to those of the D48R, stating that the midbass driver is better in the D30RS. Difficult choices, given that I’ll definitely not be able to audition in my room before purchasing... Other speakers I’m considering are from the Spendor’s Classic line, especially because I heard the SP2/3R2 and loved them. Musical diet based on jazz, classical (especially piano) and old rock. Budget is not very clear, but the D9 and the Classic 100 are stretching it a lot, possibly even too far. Classic 1/2, maybe? Have you heard anything from the current or the older Spendor Classic line? |
@donquichotte,You will get biased opinion on this question because between the ProAc and Spendor owners we have purchased the loudspeakers that "we" thought, sounded the most natural to us. I have heard the ProAc D30, Spendor D7 and own the ProAc D48R. For piano, I would highly recommend the D48R. But would also urge you to listen to the Spendor D9 to see what you prefer. Both my kids play the piano and based on that experience I can say that the larger speakers get the sound "closer" to the original. But one thing to remember is - for a piano recording to sound "like a real piano" on a large loudspeaker, you need to provide them with enough room to breath. The smaller D30 and D7 also do piano very well, but the "scale" is different compared to the larger loudspeakers. |
Between the Spendor D7 / D9 and Proac D30RS / D48R, which one does piano timbre better? I'm allergic to hearing a piano reproduction that (given a good quality recording) does not easily, clearly and immediately tells me, even if I'm not paying much attention, that this is a real, mechanical piano, not a "digital" piano. There is a very... percussive, let's say, quality especially to the upper range notes of a piano that makes the listener very much aware that there are some very tight strings that are being hit, and some systems don't reproduce this quality too well. Take, for example, George Winston's album "December", the 12th track called "Peace". How do the Spendors and the Proacs fare in this regard? |
I’ll try and close this thread up with a few comments. I have never heard a speaker change in the space of 130 or so hours as the D9. The hot midrange / treble has gone, bass deep, tuneful but with real impact as required. What was disjointed bass/midrange/treble is now a full , coherent soundstage. One of the other posts here had similar findings with the D7. Sure, the treble may not be as crisp as the D48R , I am sure no done tweeter ever will be. Ribbon tweeters are special in this regard. But the D9 did everything as good and in most of the things that matter to me - better than the ProAc in my room with my gear. Why I chose these 2 as a final speaker bake off is. 1. Budget, they are the only ones in my budget range that I could get to demo. in my house. 2. I am in an area with limited speaker brand choice. For example I would love to hear Kudos, Joseph, Magico and a few other brands, just not possible though. 3. Tried the ATC SCM 40, good, very good but not excellent in my room. And need far more watts than the 90 Naim watts I could give them. Active was an option, but not worth the mess around as naim and the ATC are not very compatible with cables etc. Just too hard. Anyway, no bad choice , I just prefer the D9. |
Seadog: Coming in at the end of this and maybe you have already made your choice but from the perspective of somebody just picking up the thread and reading from the top it seems clear to me that neither of these speakers are really the whole package for you. I wonder whether you will find yourself back on the merry-go-round in a year or so when the things you did not like about the speaker you settled for have you looking elsewhere. Can I ask: Why are you limiting yourself to just these two models? Both come from well regarded families but neither may be right for you. What else have you heard besides these two models? You are doing something that everyone would love to do--listening to them IN YOUR ROOM. If they are not doing it for you there you might want to continue the search. Most people are forced to make a decision in the dealer showroom and then get them home and find out that things sound very different--usually not in a good way. Anyway, I'm hearing a little voice inside your head that is telling you that you should continue the search. Just my two cents. |
@itzhak1969, I have a feeling that OP was always gravitated towards the D9 because the D48R caused issues in his room. Note the following question he is asking: Question for any D9 owners out there, how long did they take to fully run in ? I assume I am not hearing now what their final run in sound will be like. Will the midrange/ treble open up more, like D48R more, or is the ProAc ribbon tweeter that much better ?So this is basically question to D9 owners and not ProAc owners. My guess is OP's mind was already made up for the D9 and just wanted some validations from existing owners. While you are correct that a couple of corner bass busters would have solved the bass issue, maybe OP thought of not to take chances with bass issue in his room with the ProAc. Of course the D48s are magic when setup correctly :-) |
"However the D48R wins hands down on soundstage width, height and pinpoint accuracy of vocals etc. Just marvellous." A quotation from the OP . I don’t understand his choice either ,if everything is better with the D48 except the bass (that can be tuned easily with proper acustic treatment) why choose the D9 make no sense to me. |
Avanti1960, yes, yes, I do agree with your findings. I had to return the D9’s. I must have added another 100 hours on them & I have never seen a speaker change so much. More bass, deeper bass, and the nasty mid/treble knocked right off. Dude. From what I see the thing that put you off the D48 was too much bass but you pretty much preferred everything else from the ProAc. You have a D9 in your house and it doesn't work for you, but you think changing the cabinet color will make everything all right? What??? Why not just dial down the D48, which does everything else better except bass, and others have told you have tighter bass, and do that? What are you thinking??? This makes no sense! |
Avanti1960, yes, yes, I do agree with your findings. I had to return the D9’s. I must have added another 100 hours on them & I have never seen a speaker change so much. More bass, deeper bass, and the nasty mid/treble knocked right off. I am almost ready to jump on a new pair of D9’s, the Dark Walnut looks nice. Thank you all for comments, there is not any "poor cousin" speaker choice between these . Just personal likes/dislikes etc. I have total respect now for the ProAc brand after my demo. and I can totaly see why they have so many fans ! The D9 just floats my boat a bit more. |
@seadog77 I’m currently doing an accelerated break in of a new pair of D7s. These need LOTS of time. I am approaching 200 hours and they are still changing for the better. The slightly hot upper midrange is gone. The vocals are full and just incredible. The upper treble is softer and still detailed. But the speed and dynamics are what you stay for. Musical notes really pop like no tomorrow! However I am coming from Harbeth where I do miss a few things they did well- but I would most likely miss the energy of the D7s even more. Almost ready to commit to them. This close... |
@rsf507 , Very strange because I did listen to the Spendor D7 and they did not seem to lack in midrange or fullness. I am assuming that equipment makes a difference. The D7 I listened to had $$$$ MBL amp, preamp and CD player feeding them. In real life no one would make this kind of a combination; but it showed what the speakers were capable of. |
The D30RS has one of the best bass I ever heard ; fast, taught , controlled and very deep. Below a thread how good this speakers are compared to the old version 30R and the ATC SCM40 : https://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/129233-even-briefer-review-of-atc-scm40-vs-proac-d30r-vs-proac-d3... |
Based on your last post, it looks like you have more praises on the ProAc than the D9. But if the bass does not work for you, then go with the D9. Did you try the song I suggested? That should be a good test of what is "listenable" in your environment.Despite being a ProAc D48R, I would suggest that you have at least 24-36 inches behind these loudspeakers to breath, and at least 18 inches from side walls. If you cannot give them this much space, simply go with the D9. Think of your "best 4-5 albums" of all time and take time to play them on both the speakers. If the bass on the D48 is too much, you should give them up.
If you are able to live with the bass that they provide, you can go with them.It would be a disservice on my part to misguide a fellow audiogoner into buying the ProAc D48 just because I love them. You can also talk to your dealer to lend the D30RS and Spendor D7, since you are going to give him our business. Good luck and hope you are able to take a decision soon. |
Really, really not sure where to go from here. D9, love the speed, bass depth and definition, midrange. Not so much treble and still slight hot at very high volume. D48R , love the treble , sweet detailed and fast. Bass is full, perhaps too full , and not as fast as the D9. Midrange is almost a tie, but slight nod to the D9. However the D48R wins hands down on soundstage width, height and pinpoint accuracy of vocals etc. Just marvellous. It is a tough choice in which way to go. Even thought about D30RS and save some money, or ATC SCM40 (liked, but not loved these when I did a home demo.) Might revisit them. |
@seadog77,Did you make a decision yet? Since you mentioned that you cannot place the D48Rs away from the wall, I suggest that you play the "Thanks To You" song by Boz Scaggs on both the loudspeakers and decide which loudspeaker you should buy. Try if you can play this using Tidal. If not, then use Spotify or Amazon music. The bass is pretty deep on this and this should be a very good test of the bass performance in your room. No point in going for the D48R for it's midrange and vocals, if the bass overpowers the room and ultimately the clarity of the loudspeaker.Hope this helps. |
I am an unabashed Proac fan. I love Stewart Tylers emphasis on midrange and find them to be unfailingly natural sounding from lower midrange through upper midrange. I am not compelled to have ultimate high frequency extension so I am completely satisfied with the soft dome tweeters and I think that the ribbon tweeters on current models positively extend the highs for those that feel this is really important. I have owned: Response 3, 2.5 and currently own Response 5. (also Response CC1, CC2 center channels and ERB1 subwoofer). A very close friend of mine owns D30R. Regarding bass response. The traditional Response ProAcs (which were normally rear ported) are quite sensitive to placement in the room, especially to the back wall. My friend’s experience with the D30R which is bottom/side firing ported was very sensitive to being placed near a corner which excited a significant room issue right around 40-45 Hz. With his room layout, it was just unreasonable to move them far enough away from the corner to solve. When we did move them temporarily out, the issues were nearly completely eliminated. In his case, because of the room layout, he had to move to a non-ported speaker (YG Carmel II) to satisfactorily solve this problem. Of course this speaker also costs 3x! My experience is that with ProAcs, 3’ or more is really ideal on all sides. As other posters have indicated, there are tradeoffs with every design. The design has much in common with my previous Response 3. The tricks that Tyler uses to provide robust bass with such small enclosures and drivers trade off some definition in the bass region. The gain of these smallish drivers and enclosures is magical midrange and fantastic imaging. Even 6 more inches of "air" on front and sides may mitigate your issues. Keep playing with positioning. Perhaps look at getting some room analyzing equipment (like XTZ room analyzer). Fractions of an inch can matter with this speaker (maybe with all speakers...). When placed correctly, bass response on the D48s should be exceptional -- well balanced between extension and control but from a musicality standpoint, the overall sound presentation should be amazing. Good luck! |
If it’s of any help, I have similar bass issue with my Proac response 2.5’s in a similar kind of room layout. I have them about 20” from wall which is certainly not optimal. I have bass traps which help a little but on some tracks the bass is bloated. How did I more or less fix it? An inexpensive Schiit Loki tone control. I have not heard the d48 but the issue and context sounds similar. I suspect a speaker like Larsen which are made for very compromised positioning and close to wall placement, might be an alternative choice. I haven’t heard the Larsen’s. (Went to audition them in NYC once and the dealer was so shockingly rude I never got to hear them, another story!).. in most respects Proacs when driven with good power are sublime speakers. good luck. |
I did think about the D30 from an earlier reply from Itzhak. It is not totally off the cards, just worried I’ll not get the “scale of sound” from this one. Some days the D9 is breathtaking with the transparency this speaker can dig up. Then I put on a less than well recorded song and it is disappointing. Almost every song sounds great on the D48R, so a bit more of a colored speaker I guess, but still excellent. |