One of the main advantages of the better Klipsch horn designs is the dynamics, which, importantly for me, hold up very well at low volumes.
I have owned the KHorns in the 70's, the Cornwalls in the 90's and now the Epic CF- 4. all very good at "serving the music" as some say, while not being hyper-critically perfect in any way. It's really hard to overestimate the importance of wide dynamic range until you have lived with it and then lived with speakers that lack wide dynamic range. If it was not for the Epics, I would probably still have one of the 2 Spendor models I owned, because they are beautiful to listen to as well, and very truthful in their own way, but I did become a little dissatisfied with their relatively average dynamics. They were actually about as dynamic as most other cone speakers I've owned, but not up to horn standards.
One problem that a newcomer will encounter when researching Klipsch is the world of crossover, cabinet and driver changes/upgrades that are offered and strongly recommended. I find many sites that make you feel that if you don't change the speaker beyond recognition, you are not going to achieve good sound. Not true. I like to tweak, but some of these models sound great as they are if you can't afford to heavily modify them. It's one of those occasions when reading too much and knowing too little can leave you feeling confused and insecure.
I would like to do some crossover, wire and cabinet mods to my CF-4's, but with the few things I have done, which isn't much, they are still the best overall speakers I have ever owned, (not heard) and I've owned some nice ones.
Rebbi, give them a try if you can. I think you will discover something very different than what you are accustomed to. Whether or not you like it only you can say.
While I'm addressing you (as well as other members), I have found a new amp tweak for you to spend your hard earned money on. I found an ad here on Audiogon for the Cerious Technologies Nano Reference power cord, originally $500.00, now 149.00 for a 5 foot cord. I know you had been considering a cord upgrade, and I was using the top line Pangea, which I liked, although I knew there were better cords.
Well, it turns out that Robert Grost, former founder of Unity Audio, owns the company, and lives near me here in AZ. He offered to let me try the cable on trial, and I had my doubts, but the technology had interested me for years. By that evening, I told him to cash the check. The cable is excellent. More quiet, refined and dimensional than the Pangea...at a giveaway price. I'm very happy with it.
Anyway,it's kind of nice to hear a few members speaking well of Klipsch for a change. I know that it has been very popular over the years to call them brash and honky, sometimes by people who I don't think were even familiar with them, and other times by people who were using the wrong sources and amps. Make no mistake...they will reveal. |
Some good info in the "good affordable horns" thread Started here a few years back. |
Fwiw I have limited mileage with klipsch but the times I have spent with them always left a smile on my face and made me take notice. One should almost feel compelled to give a tried and true potential high value brand like that a fair go first before going more esoteric. Kind of like the OHM Acoustics of high efficiency horn designs. 😉
I've yet to hear a set achieve top level performance at higher volume levels without a horn or two in the equation for the highest possible efficiency. |
You guys are making me want to check out Klipsch! :-)
For what it's worth, Brian of ANK is a big fan of pairing the Kit 1 with vintage speakers from the '80's like Altec, etc.
My only problem with going the vintage route is that a lot of the suitable speakers of that era are physically too huge for my spacecraft and would cost a fortune to ship (I'm talking Cornwall's, La Scala's, Altec 19's, etc.).
Now Heresy's might work and I know of some for sale locally that I'm wondering if the seller would let me demo at home. |
Rob, agree with you, seems like they were made for the AN Kit 1 :) |
I have never heard the Cornwalls but just looking at them they look like they have gobs of presence and musicality and the price for a used pair is ridiculously low. |
David,
Thank you for pointing the direction for some mods to improve them further, not that there is much more needed, they sound very good as they are. |
Jetrexpro,
I'm with you. I almost forgot how good these speakers are. I haven't listened to them in about 15 years; but you know, I remember them sounding really good with very low watts, so I You Tubed them and sure enough, they were really excellent with AN and other tubed gear. Only $2,000 grand new, about 102db, 8 ohm, gets down to 30hz, very live and dynamic, yet still warm. Sounded a bit like Tannoy Turnberry. I think a lot of people would be happy rediscovering these classics. I might change some of my direction myself. Jet, nice of you to bring this speaker up, it is well worth consideration at a astoundingly good price new. Older models can be had In the high hundreds. Best, Rob |
The Klipsch Cornwalls, La Scallas, Fortes, and for a speaker with a smaller footprint the Klipsch KLF-20s sound wonderful with my 6 watt per channel SET amplifier.
These speakers can be upgraded with lots of good advice at the Klipsch Forum and the Audio Kharma forum.
I have found Morry James Campbell's advice to be excellent in improving these speakers.
My modified KLF -20s have pinpoint imaging, expansive sound staging but with the important dynamics to make the music feel alive. |
If I had the room I would want to try Klipsch Cornwall. Wonder how they would sound with 8 watts. |
As mentioned prior Klipsch in general is a very good place to look for value with higher efficiency affordable speakers.
Fact is Klipsch has been around a long time in both home and pro audio. Almost as long as there have been tube amps for home audio. The vintage stuff in particular was designed to run off lower power tube amps of the day and was the basis of their success back then. Must have done something right in that area. |
I still think some older Klipsch, with some mods, are the way to go. I still enjoy my modded Lascala's, in 1 room, and my modded CF 2's, in another. Musically, more right, than wrong. |
Rebbi,thanks for you interest in Eff LS. I am speaker
builder and after long time working in this field i will
try to explain my point of vision .All full range
drivers get negative draw back , first whizzer cone
coloration, we are supply are loudspeakers with
drivers with Whizzer cone removed, but problem still'
after 2000-3000 Hz Freg response still coming up
and get up to 10 db in 10000 Hz, make sound very course
and unpleasant. is very good to say------- No crossover, but only apply complicate crossover we can flattering FR.
Very weak bass we can fix to add subwoofer but above
mention problem we solved by apply crossover
|
Also 4 ohm nominal impedance rating. that alone is a red flag for must tube amps, much less a SET. I'd pass on this one. |
"Sensitivity: 95dB - averaged across 200Hz to 5kHz at 1M - on axis"
Efficiency down to 200hz is not that hard and not that meaningful IMHO. The bass is where it becomes hard to maintain efficiency levels, exponentially so as the frequency decreases. Most likely drops off a lot below 200 hz. Measurements done well would tell. Might still work well off a SET in a smaller room. How much meat on the bones would be my main question. |
Maybe the two 15" woofs are enough to do the trick in lieu of an enclosure. The money goes into the large drivers rather than cabinetry I suppose. Might work if the whole design is executed well, especially in a smaller room. |
I can't see a moderate size and cost open baffle design working particularly well from an efficiency perspective with a low power amp. The box size in conjunction with drivers is what delivers extended bass efficiently. Those drivers would have to outperform most any others similar by a wide margin to do that which seems unlikely.
But you never know. Open baffle has its charms otehrwise much like a SET does, so I suppose again its more a matter of what is valued most and what tradeoffs will be made on a limited budget.
Of course I have not heard them. They just might be the cat's meow. There is no substitution for extended auditions in a case like this. |
Earlier on in the thread, someone had mentioned Spatial. If you don't know, Clayton Shaw founded Spatial to continue to develop open baffle, controlled directivity speakers after leaving Emerald Physics. His latest, which debuted at THE Show in Newport, is the Spatial M3. It is rated at 94 dB efficient, goes down to 32 Hz, and has been getting (like the rest of the Spatial lineup) rave reviews from the press. The price is $1499 plus shipping (which, at 75 lb. per side, isn't cheap). See here. He has links to the reviews, too. Interesting! Clayton says they sound great with a 300B SET but you'd want to use the 4 Ohm taps on an amp, which, in the case of the Kit 1, would require some trivial rewiring. |
Tube I'd agree with your assessment of the mhdt dacs. Both I own share the same positive traits though one is tube and sensitive to tube rolling and the SS and just darn good as it is. Either sounds similarly excellent with most any good quality source I've used over the years and I've used quite a few with both always with great success. I used to covet dcs gear. That is my reference for how good digital can sound. I'm not saying the mhdts are as good as dcs but whatever the difference that might exist I find it does not matter to me. These things just make good music! The enjoy the sound review from a few years back nailed it exactly I have found. |
Hey Map those MHDT units are musical if not the last word in detail, they get tone right. Better than the other way around. The Havana was my favorite before I purchased a Modwright Oppo, it was just so enjoyable and engaging contrary to some of the others with greater detail maybe but always something distracting and ultimately irritating, one of them became unlistenable. I've been out of the budget DAC game for a few years so don't have a clue as to how things have changed, I expect quite a bit but really it always comes down to how a given component is going to work in a given set-up, there are seemingly few absolutes. |
More Shameless plugs:
Tad hibachis are gone.
I have stax phones and mhdt tube Dac up for sale now. I'd love to hear both with a set amp. If not in tested send me a set to try and I might end up keeping them both. 😉 |
David
We all here are certainly entitled to our various opinions. But I fail to see any nefarious motive in Rebbi's postings on this forum. In fact I think it's likely educational and informative for those who have come upon it. I'm
certain folks have learned a few things from following this thread.
Charles, |
|
Grannyring:
A speaker time share! Excellent!! :-D |
Yes Rebbi they do look very nice indeed. I will split the cost of the AN speakers with you and you can use them for 6 months then my turn for 6 months! |
"If they are as you describe them Mapman I would only ask WHY are you selling them."
They were in my second system which I replaced with a Bel Canto C5i integrated that is also very good (but only 65 watts) and greatly simplifies that system for use by everyone in my family. It includes phono stage and DAC as well allowing me to use 1 very small device in place of many.
The Hibachis were too big to fit in the audio cabinet where the rest of that system resides. They sat separately on the floor next to all the rest.
So the Hibachis are no longer needed as a result of the downsizing and simplification of that system and I can't justify keeping them if I can sell for a reasonable price. Otherwise I might keep them around as spares or for use in a different system, but I'm taking the opportunity to clean out some things I have that are not needed. The extra cash will come in handy.
The C5i replaced my amps, pre-amp, and DAC so the sound is quite a bit different than before, more like my main system which also uses Bel Canto Class D amps. I used the Hibachis in there when I had to send the ref1000m amp there to Bel Canto for repairs a couple years back. They filled in admirably as I described. The sound was significantly different in each of my systems though where the biggest difference was in pre-amp (NAD versus ARC) and DAC (mhdt tube DAC versus SS).
So they have done the job admirably in all cases where I used them. They were in my second system for a few years and were listened to there almost daily. There is little not to like about them, except maybe they have some size to them. I cannot find a fault other than absolute output levels compared to much bigger amps as I described. |
"The only thing is that they do not go as loud as completely effortlessly as my 500 w/ch Bel Canto amps, but then a gain few amps do."
If they are as you describe them Mapman I would only ask WHY are you selling them. I don't dispute a word you say, your comments are quite compelling BUT what's wrong with them other than they don't play LOUD enough? The whole raison d'être for us audiophiles is getting gear that sound right to each of us. If this is as you say I would only ask, besides "not enough power" any other reason why you would want to sell it, I wouldn't. I'm not trying to be flip but you sure have me curious. |
Grannyring,
I'd looked at Sonist, but their prices have really shot up. Their smallest monitor is over $3000 at this point, IIRC. Seems they have beautiful workmanship, though. |
Whoops my big mistake. I meant Sonist, not Tonian. I always mix them up as they look very similar to me. At least my mind thinks so. I did not hear the Tonian speakers, but was unimpressed with Sonist at the show.
Sorry fellow Agoners. |
Bill,
What amplifier was driving the Tonianspeakers that you heard recently? I have never heard them myself but they have a reputation for exceptional sound. I do know how important synergy can be in regards to the overall sound.
Charles, |
I listened to the Tonian speakers at Expona this year and was not impressed at all. Perhaps the room was bad, but the Audio Note room was pretty much the same room and those Audio Note speakers sounded fantastic. One of about 3 rooms I wanted to spend time in and really enjoy listening. The sound coming from those simple and small two way speakers was just breath taking and beautiful.
Now the AN amp driving those speakers may have cost over $15,000 :)
The AN speakers are very special sounding and I would love to hear them in my room. Building the kit would be great. |
Yes I am familiar with Hi-fi Shark. I'm sure all the regular participants on this thread will also keep an eye out for you with regard to AN-E. |
Rob,
Yes, I think the summer time is slow. My De Capo's sat there for about 2 weeks before I really got any nibbles, and they were also listed on eBay, US Audiomart and Audio Circle! Sheesh!
Are you familiar with hifishark.com? It's a web site that aggregates used audio equipment sales from fifteen different web sites all over the world. I check there regularly.
I will keep checking for AN-E's used. In the meantime, I'm having fun doing my alternative speaker research. |
Rebbi,
Great info. Being familiar with AN speakers I have a huge soft spot in my heart for them. I did own Snell at one point which is where AN got the design and modified them, but you likely know that. At any rate, let's hope a pair of AN-E 98db version pops up soon at somewhere near your price point. The Agon has been slow and tough to sell as of late. I have my Primaluna Dialogue One up for sale for a reasonable $1,750 with about $300 worth of NOS tubes. Usually my stuff sells within 7 days. About 800 views. No sale. I'm already into relist. So, maybe an AN-E shows up one day at good price. Best, Rob |
Hey, Rob,
Thanks for the post.
I looked at those AN-E's and asked Brian at ANK about them. He confirmed that they are an old version of the "94 dB" model and he doesn't really recommend them with the Kit 1. The AN-E Kits he sells, by contrast, are all the "98 dB" version with the hemp cone drivers, but you can't touch those for less than $3600 with stands. It's a pity! I have actually corresponded with the seller of those speakers when I was trying to establish their "vintage." He doesn't know how old they are because he bought them second hand.
Another interesting used possibility is the pair of Tonian Labs TL-D1 Mk. III SE's on sale for $1500. Reviews of earlier models are very good. I corresponded with Tony at Tonian. It seems like those were one-off speakers made with a Fostex driver that is no longer available. He is now building the D1 with a NOS Philips driver that he says is much better, but it goes for $2500.
At this point, I am leaning toward only buying something that I can audition first, unless it's an AN speaker, which I think would be much more of a safe bet. |
Rebbi,
In case you missed it there is a pair of AN-E for sale on Agon for $1,499. |
Why do people keep recommending speakers for Rebbi outside his purchase margins? |
The TAD Hibachis are a unique design. Take a look at the design aspects listed for them and you'll see. Tube Audio Design specialized in tube gear and the designer had a very devoted following. They do use some kind of tube in the power feed.
I bought them as an experiment to try to achieve "tube amp" sound with SS. THese accomplish that quite well I would say. I suspect many or most would have difficulty identifying them as a SS amp in a blind test against some of teh better tube amps out there I have heard in that they have no audible vices that I can detect. Plus they are very transparent and seem to take on teh sound of the gear they are used with more than anything else. I've heard that using them in both my systems with very different gear at various times. I feel confident they would outpeform a SET amp with most less efficient speaekrs out there for sure.
So if one is truly interested in a SS amp that might do teh trick, and work well with most any spaekers, for very reasonable cost, these are the guys to try still IMHO.
I've heard VAC, ARC, various SETs (not Coincident) etc. I.m not saying these will sound the same, but I think they would impress most.
They are not soft, rounded, fat or have any unique characteristics like that that can sometimes be associated with some tube gear. Rather thehy sound more like what the best performing tube and SS gear I have heard sound like. Hard to find fault with teh sound IMHO. The only thing is that they do not go as loud as completely effortlessly as my 500 w/ch Bel Canto amps, but then a gain few amps do.
Just saying... |
I've heard snopro's system and the sub does not take away from the SET magic. |
Also Charles, forgot to mention, he was also an SET guy, he had a nice pair of Antique 845 monos. I remember not too far back sending me an email about a particular SET DHT amp for sale on Audiogon to try with the Decapos. I didn't because I didn't think they had enough juice to drive them. |
Thanks Charles for your kind words. That's just it Charles! I haven't yet I've heard some wonderful SS systems. Initially they can sound great but as I listen long enough there always seems to be something missing that causes me to veer away from the engagement in the music, the purpose of listening in the first place. I recently picked up a used tube CJ vintage preamp at an audio meeting. The owner recently passed away and a lot of his gear and a wonderful collection of mostly classical lps was being sold. This piece was one I had lusted after back in the day but I didn't have 3k to blow on a preamp at the time, around 1989, so here was my chance.
The funny thing is that along with my vintage amplifier this set-up just MAKES MUSIC! One guy at the meeting was dismissive of my purchase, Oh yeah, I had a few of those back in the day kind of not dark but carmel colored. Yeah, I guess that's kind of right but for all the imperfections there is that musical rightness, presence and tone that is just there and sound more like music to me, what I HEAR in live music and whatever is missing, often a lot of spurious irrelevant detail that doesn't contribute to the music itself, I can easily live without. |
Tubegroover,
I for one certainly did not take your description as a put down of Mapman's amplifier. These amplifiers could in fact sound very fine, your distinctions were understandable in my viewpoint. The presence or "thereness factor " make all the difference in the world. If I could find a solid state amp capable of this elusive quality I would buy it in a heartbeat. As far as I know they don't exist. The wonderful three dimensional quality is tough to live without once you've been exposed to it. |
Hey Map, I haven't heard the amp in question, just speaking generally based on my experiences. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against ss, there are some gems out there, most of those a bit more than I would pay. The point is that tubes render different characteristics, distortions if you will, that are more pleasing to some of us plus that "presence" thing that gives it more of a real feel deal. Your amp might be great and it might work for someone(s). I just doubt it would for the SET crowd. The guys I know in the SET camp are very dedicated and committed, different strokes and whatever works. |
I agree with Snopro on this topic. I also use a sub connected to the speaker outputs. It is very interesting the effect on the soundstage with small changes in the sub's crossover point and volume control. My amp is an Art Audio PX-25. For me it is 6 watts of sonic bliss. Speakers are highly modified Klipsh (Big thank you to Morry James Campbell for all his help on the Klipsch's ). |
Heresy shmeracy. If it works it works. |
Saki70,
Hi. Thanks for the tip about the AN-J. It would probably be perfect for my needs, but the AN stuff is still so gosh darn expensive, or at least out of my budget. But thanks for pointing them out to me. One more AN model to keep an eye out for, used.
Mapman and Brownsfan,
I'm not so sure using a sub with a SET is heresy, although I can understand why it might seem so, supplementing a purist amp with a sub.
But a number of manufacturers of SET- friendly single-driver speakers, including Omega and Blumenstein, make matching subwoofers to go with their full range speakers.
I also think that some people whose rooms don't accommodate floor standers very well find that a monitor + sub configuration does very well. As Charles said, there are multiple methodologies for feline taxidermy.
Snopro,
Yes, I've heard from multiple sources that adding a sub does good things for sound staging. |
Referring to Mapman's pro audio suggestion, what about JBL 4425's? |
It is not exactly the same, but the ZuDef4s have built-in powered subs and are most often paired with SETs to good effect. |
Rebbi, I occasionally turn the subs on, but I have them set up to provide just a wee bit of low end help. I rarely turn them on. I am in agreement with map man on this. For me, the solution is to go with an appropriate full range speaker eventually. |
Rebbi, I run my Franks with Druid V's and an Undertone sub with great results. When you use the sub run them from the speaker outputs and sealed subs are best.
Subwoofers not only extend the bass but expands the soundstage. |
