To me high end is simply that it is built to a higher standard , signifcantly better than mass market equipment and designed to sound much better and last much longer,
66 responses Add your response
i suspect that high end is a qualitative concept based upon a price threshold. that is at some price point a component is considered high-end. i'm not sure what that is. on another note, the poster who listed the brand names of some high-end tube manufacturers, left our aesthtix, conrad johnson, audio note, lamm, navison and others. |
Weseixas, We did a few Stereophile shows but none of them were in '94. There may have been someone there using one of our amps though. These days at home I use a speaker that is 16 ohms and goes to 20Hz. It uses field coil drivers with beryllium domes for the midrange drivers. There are no breakup in the speakers anywhere in the audio band, so they are quite smooth, very detailed and fast, owing to the fact that there is no magnetic sag in the magnetic field of the magnets- not unlike the way ESLs work. Clearly in its own way it expresses state of the art operation, even though it is not a low impedance planar or the like. There are not a lot of published specs of our amps that are the result of independent measurement. One of the bigger problems we have run into is the fact that output of the amplifier floats, and so if the scope or analyzer used on the amp has a ground connection into the AC wall power, the result is that one of the speaker terminals will be at ground. This causes the amplifier to have high distortion and low power due to the resulting unequal drive of the power tubes in this condition. This was a problem with the Soundstage.com tests done about 10 years ago. In that test the amp only made about 100 watts- not the 140 that it did when we got the amp back from them and double-checked the results. About nine years before that, an engineer in Salt Lake City sent us the results of a test that he did on one of our early MA-2s. That amp had a feedback switch that allowed that amp to run 8 db of feedback. The output impedance that resulted was under 0.5ohms. You can make a voltage source out of an OTL IOW, but to my ears it never sounded right when you engaged the feedback. I did notice that there were certain speakers that needed the feedback, but I found that if the speaker needed it- there was no way it would sound as good compared to a speaker that did not need the feedback. That precipitated the investigation into the why of that matter, but I really did not feel comfortable in explaining the results of that investigation until about 5 years ago. |
Still trying to impose "mirth control"? Still? I do have compassion for the humorless and feel for the long suffering friends and families of those unfortunate souls who are compelled to suck the air out of any attempt at levity by those who dare to joke around a little...perhaps looser underwear could help those without humor to seem less like my Uncle Dick. |
I prefer to look at measurements, scopes, and articles (I don't understand ALL the technical stuff but, thankfully, there are a lot of real smart people that do) about amps instead of dealing with reproduction of sound by some lame "musician"...a high end amp is simply a better and more expensive thing than otherwise, and putting music through it can only cause ear damage and incite sometimes shouted "opinions" from less worthy so-called "other people", and that can only lead to strife and discomfort. Art? I mean really...who cares? |
Atmasphere, Where can i find bench test results of your amplifiers? Most tubies have issues with a 20 hz square wave due to there trannies, so it would be interesting to see what yours look like without. Do you post on your web site ? I last heard one of your amplifiers at Stereophile 94, we were on the same floor, so i guess a ton has been done since, well apart from the Hi-end renumeration... :) Will you be in Atlanta ? Regards, |
The point of this thread I thought was all about what made an amplifier high end. To that regard, I hate to say it but its a simple fact that the intention of the designer is what fulfills this definition, not the actual sound produced! -Atmasphere, LOL, Ralph, i guess that response will do..... I accept :) The best speakers made are lower than 8 ohms and this is absolutely true for a SOTA speaker system, if low distortion and low dynamic compression is the goal. I would not be interested in an amplifier that is not a true voltage source or at least close to, too much of a compromise to begin with IMO and i will agree that in itself does not make an amplifier hi-end, just not SOTA. Maybe we should define a price point , i will give this ago, any SS Amp over 10K should be a voltage source amplfier IMO. Betta ? Regards, |
Weseixas, some of the best speakers I have heard are much more than 4 ohms. Just so you know, our amps can do a 20 Hz square wave with no measurable square wave tilt, which will not be the case with an amplifier that cuts off at 10Hz. The point of this thread I thought was all about what made an amplifier high end. To that regard, I hate to say it but its a simple fact that the intention of the designer is what fulfills this definition, not the actual sound produced! Now you are welcome to your opinion, but I think as you look at this subject, in due time you will see that a certain ability in an amplifier is not sufficient to call it high end without other factors. Now you say I am defending my topology, and there is some truth in that, but at the same time I am also defending others, for example those that were on my list in my last post. In each case, a high end amplifier manufacturer was named, but their 2 ohms response is likely limited. Now I realize that the whole Voltage/Power paradigm thing is a problem for you. I used the term 'paradigm' for a reason: A paradigm exists when anything outside that platform of thought is simply discounted as 'not right', 'bogus', 'non existent', 'pseudo science', etc. Now I think you have also brought up a different subject, which is 'what is the State of the Art (SOTA)' which is a different question from 'what is high end?' We can easily see that there is a difference- if the manufacturer of your amplifier has another model that is built with similar ideals, are you going to tell me one is high end and the other is not? It may be as well a question that is equally difficult to answer- it took me 15-20 years to have a really good answer to the issue of high end. But I can say this: what would define State of the Art? The ability to drive 2 ohms? In the absence of the ability to also sound like real music, the answer there is no. IOW, the ability to sound like real music has got to be in the cards, because it is the music that it is all about. Now if you could build an amplifier that was a voltage source, that was also lacking in the odd ordered harmonics that color such amplifiers, I would be down with that in a heartbeat. I don't like brightness- to me its a more sinful coloration than the traditional 'tube' sound (by that I mean the 2nd harmonic, which BTW is lacking in our gear as it is fully differential). So there are aspects of this that seem to point at taste. |
So the bottom line is that it is **intention** that defines what a high end amplifier is. It is certainly not the ability to drive 2 ohms, as quite often that ability means that the amplifier might not sound like real music, and therefore neither can the speaker being thus driven. Some designers want to see their equipment sound better than that. You see? Its intention, and nothing else. - Atmasphere So who determines when the amplifier sounds like real music Ralph, Stereophile, Absolute sound, you, me? ........ Any and all hi -end amplfiers IMO, should be : * True Voltage source * Have Low THD/TIM * Wide bandwidth 10-100K. as the basic's, how can an amplifier that can't even pass a proper 10,20, 20K, 50K or 100K squarewave even be considered accurate, musical? Maybe, anything can be musical, it depends on the ears, accurate to the input signal .... NAH ! The dynamic function involved in reproducing music is very complex AND in the absolute world an amplifier's role is not to have any sonic signature, regardless of load, nothing to do with pleasant THD vs Bad THD, that's absurd and as a designer why would you not want a true voltage source, why because yours can't? Please !!!! It's time we started discussing in absolute terms Ralph it's not by coincidence that a lot of top rated amplifiers are True voltage source type or close to it. I do fully understand you feel you have to defend your topology, OK, but maybe you need to step away from these type of discussions instead of turning this into another tube vs SS thing we always seem to get into. Now does this mean an amp that is not a true voltage source will sound bad, Absolutely not!! but it will be limited to it's "intended" 8 ohm purpose, forget about SOTA ... Also some of the amplifiers mentioned by you do suffer tonal coloration with load change, they work best at 8/4 ohms IMO. Unfortunately and If one's intent is a SOTA system, with the intent to sound like live music, there is no 8 ohm speaker to do so and invariably 4 and below will creep in. Regards, |
Sound is very subjective, one man's euphoria is another' anathema. An amplifiers job is that of an voltage source, expensive high end amplifiers that cannot replicate such, is well ................ Weseixas, so you exclude Nelson Pass?? Gamut?? Shindo?? Kondo?? Lamm?? VAC?? Sorry. Your model does not hold up. BTW, you might be interested in this; http://vintagefisher.com/vintage-fisher-55-a-tube-power-amp-monobloc-55a/ What we see is a Fisher 55-A mono amplifier. The knob on the lower right hand side is the Z-Matic knob, which is a variable feedback control. It is labeled: "Constant Voltage" on the fully counterclockwise position, "Constant Power" at 12 o'clock, and "Constant Current" at fully clockwise. You seemed to accuse me of 'pseudo science' on another thread recently; I just thought you should see this so that you would know that I did not make something up. And also, you can see that tube amplifiers are capable of being voltage sources. The Wolcott is an example of that. However now that you see that I *did not* make this up, and that a feedback control is having something to do with this on the Fisher, then you will see that my comments about negative feedback being something that is often part of the Voltage Paradigm (http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html ) is not made up either. And it is a fact, borne out of real science, that there is a price paid for the inclusion of negative feedback in most amplifiers- that of increased odd ordered harmonic distortion, which is shown to be unpleasant to the human ear. So the bottom line is that it is **intention** that defines what a high end amplifier is. It is certainly not the ability to drive 2 ohms, as quite often that ability means that the amplifier might not sound like real music, and therefore neither can the speaker being thus driven. Some designers want to see their equipment sound better than that. You see? Its intention, and nothing else. Now just so we are clear, it may be the intention of the designer that the amp *should* drive a 2 ohm load as a voltage source. That's fine- it still falls under the definition of intention. |
03-03-11: One of the above posters mentioned Levinson being hi end . I would not consider my Levinson #431 hi end . In fact I would not consider any of my system high end , ( see my system link ) . It used to be if you spent $10,000 on a single component you were in that elite group but now with six figure gear the bar has been raised , not that price is what matters . -Tmsorosk Tmsorosk, i would consider Levinson hi-end , absolutely not mid-fi... regards, |
03-02-11: Weseixas what amps do you feel are hi end and which are not in your experience? Is the 2 ohm load spec you mention your current speaker load? -Rleff No, i have multiple speakers, currently using not 2 ohm, my speakers have nothing to do with my statement , try and understand that . A true hi-end amp would be a perfect voltage source, there are available, Krell,levinson, Classe, Audia flight, MBL,et al, it is the basic premise of making a true hi-end amplifier after which other parameters fall into place. Regards, |
One of the above posters mentioned Levinson being hi end . I would not consider my Levinson #431 hi end . In fact I would not consider any of my system high end , ( see my system link ) . It used to be if you spent $10,000 on a single component you were in that elite group but now with six figure gear the bar has been raised , not that price is what matters . |
Wolf garcia, you are correct, Boulder amps are high-end. The Adcom 565 mono blocks also are heavy with very large power supplies but they do not sound high-end. Just a case in point. -Phd Agree the sound is , well, but they do not cost high end money and will see off many pretenders IMO, maybe even one of your favorites.. regards, |
Atmasphere, Weseixas answer is very vague plus his statement that an amplifier should have the ability to drive a 2 ohm load otherwise he considers it midfi, is misleading. But if you do some searching under his user name you will see that his statement reflects his frustration to find an amp that will drive ribbon speakers. -Phd No frustration , I can build my own ( i have) or buy what i want ( done so 2 ) A true high end amp should be a perfect voltage source IMO, end of story. Atmasphere: Sound is very subjective, one man's euphoria is another' anathema. An amplifiers job is that of an voltage source, expensive high end amplifiers that cannot replicate such, is well ................ A Pretender. Regards, |
Atmasphere, Weseixas answer is very vague plus his statement that an amplifier should have the ability to drive a 2 ohm load otherwise he considers it midfi, is misleading. But if you do some searching under his user name you will see that his statement reflects his frustration to find an amp that will drive ribbon speakers. |
Adcom and early Parasound amps I don't consider high end. A high-end amp will provide a spacious soundstage, float the airiest highs, deliver a full but sparkling midrange, and has excellent dynamics/bass without sounding boomy. It should do all this and still sound musically involving & refined. Given that & without an equally high-end preamp you will fall short of your goals - 02-28-11: Phd I have seen them send off many a so called hi-end amps, the magic is in the load .. regards, |
Figuring out what makes any product a 'high end audio' product has long been a vexxing subject. In thinking about this over the last 20 years, the best answer I have ever been able to come up with is 'intention'. So in this regard I think I agree with Phaelon the most, although most everyone here has made points that I consider valid. But even with the idea of intention, products occasionally appear in the mainstream that are so good they qualify despite their humble origins. Radio Shack has produced a few of these, for example their Linaeum speakers from about 10-15 years ago. They were inexpensive but got good reviews. But for the most part, the intention of the designer will be the primary aspect we are looking for. |
Adcom and early Parasound amps I don't consider high end. A high-end amp will provide a spacious soundstage, float the airiest highs, deliver a full but sparkling midrange, and has excellent dynamics/bass without sounding boomy. It should do all this and still sound musically involving & refined. Given that & without an equally high-end preamp you will fall short of your goals. |
It might be easier for you to list the amps you may be considering;then I think you will see responses from people.I would not concentrate on what is high end but more on what mates the best with the speakers you are considering driving. My shot at answering your question would be;High end solid state; Pass,Roland,gryphon,Plinius,MBL,Spectron,Levision. Tubes- Atmasphere,VAC,VTL,Manley,Joule Electra,EAR,Cary,Audio Research These are the amps I consider class A high end there are more I am sure. |
Piece of cake, high end solid state amps share these physical characteristics: 1. rows of external heat sinks 2. tiffany style gold connectors 3. torodial tranformer(s) 4. large can, screw-top, computer grade capacitors 5. at least four power devices per channel 5. weighs 50 pounds or more. and this electronic characteristic: a. a four Ohm RMS power rating that is double its 8 Ohm rating For tube amps? No clue. |
Personally, I've been fixating on the soundstage and the sonic image created. If the amp gives you a very natural, realistic sound with great placing of individual instruments in their appropriate places on the sonic "stage", such that you are fooled into thinking you're "there" in a live event, that's getting into high end. Others may fixate on other aspects of sound reproduction and will have their own criteria. That's what makes this audiophile world such a jungle and rightly so. Its what keeps it exciting. If there were set definitions to everything, we'd eventually have all the answers. Who wants that? |
To me, "High End" always preceded the word "Audio" and not a specific component. You could take one of those half million dollar amps, hide it behind the curtains, and hook it up to a pair of $200 speakers and feed it from a consumer CD player and I'll guarantee that the music coming out of it will be anything that will make anyone notice the amplifier. Much like putting Pirellis on a minivan. It's still a minivan. |
OK, I'll bite too but apologize in advance to anyone I may offend. I use an Aragon 4004MkII amp for 2 channel and front mains for HT. While I am very satisfied with it's performance, I wouldn't classify it as high-end. It's definitely atleast one more rung up the ladder toward high-end than my previous Adcom 555 amp. I would compare the Aragon to a AAA baseball player trying to make the big leagues; he hits for average, with good power,has good speed and a good glove, but plays right field and has an arm like a wet noodle. Good enough for some line-ups but not an allstar. I think this amp might improve it's chances of making the 'show' if it was pure class A, rather than class AB, but it would probably then be piced much higher, too. New I think it was only $1,800 and I bought it used for half that. I think in amps, much like this forum, you get what you pay for. When I think of high-end ss amps, I think of brands like Pass, Levinson, McCormack, CJ and McIntosh. For tube amps, I think of Atmosphere,CJ, McIntosh, VTL and VAS. I probably missed a few brands but would love to try all of these in my system. In the end, though, I think you should only use your own ears in determining what's truly 'high-end' for yourself and ignore any thoughts of status. Happy hunting. |
Roxy54: It's a subjective hobby. Lots of questions here get subjective opinion answers. I asked the question(s) because I am curious as to what those opinions are. Pubul57: I am not looking to buy anything at this time. The question came to mind while reading the post by Kitegod "what speakers demand high end electronics". The term "high-end" is used on a regular basis and I just wondered what it means to members willing to respond. Being a music lover, with only a slight tendency toward (non-nervosa type) audiophilia, I agree with Stanwal's comment about being in the ear of the beholder. But, my opinion is just as subjective as anyone else's. |
