Class D vs Class A/AB is like ground beef vs prime rib!
High End Amp Price Collapse musings
If Class D amplification becomes accepted by audiophiles there should be a glut of high end amps (Krell, Levinson, Pass etc) becoming available on the used market at prices a fraction of what they are now.
Think CRT TV when the flat panels began emerging.I think Ill hold off on a new/used amp purchase for a little while. Maybe I will bet a Boulder.
Has any one else considered this?
167 responses Add your response
Swiss Watches, French Champagne, Cuban Cigars, American/Canadian/British High End Audio. None of these things will ever be well reproduced in China. Audio Research, Krell, Pass Labs, Jadis, etc. show me class D coming out of China, because thats who makes it, that is in any way close to our Class A products. As far at CRT television, well, most of the professional TV studio mastering is still done on CRT. Yes, they are $50K CRT tubes, but still they are old technology refined to the point that its far higher quality than any mass produced flat screen from China. Take Jolida amps, I've owned 2, great amps, but they are not worth the money new that is about the same as a good ARC tube amp used. Why is McIntosh still making the same exact product 40+ years later? Because its just better, better made, better materials and better sounding. You can keep Class D. If i wanted class D I would have a home theater system and not a full tube 2 channel stereo system . |
I don't think Class D amps will replace Class A or AB amps anytime soon - they are simply not all the less expensive to build and have multiple problems, (sound just being one - they can play hell with tweeters life also). Now a turbo 4 IC engine vs. a inline-6 or an V-8 is another matter ! My son has a turbo 4 2.0L in his Audi A4, and I have a direct-injected turbo 4 2.0L in my Volvo V60 wagon, and they are both terrific engines. Lots of torque down load and plenty of HP - the Volvo engine makes 240 HP in the V60 and can be "juiced" to make over 300 HP in their sport models with a sequential turbo / supercharger. These engines are light and very fuel efficient as well. Of, course, my C7 Corvette has a NA 6.2L V-8 and it is a beast, but these fours are the coming thing. Even Mercedes has gone to a turbo 4 in its main sedan, the E300, for emissions and fuel economy. WRT vinyl sales vs. CD's and downloads, for 2016, CD's out sold both vinyl and digital downloads. In fact, CD's sold 10 times as many albums as vinyl in the best year vinyl has had in over 20 years !! I think vinyl is a niche for people who love to futz around with turntables, but in the long run its a dead end. Same for digital downloads which are big in the USA but nowhere else. The big coming thing is digital streaming / subscription services, like the Berliner Philharmoniker and Tidal. That is how you will get nearly all your tunes in 10 years. |
Pitting Class-D against Class-A is not even a fair argument. When 95% of all mid-high end amps out in the world are Class-AB.... isn't that where the comparison should be? I have zero interest in owning a VERY inefficient and costly Class-A or Tube amp, and have owned many great class AB amps in my lifetime. I've heard $2000 amps that sound amazing, and ones that sound lifeless and boring. Switching amps are finally up to that level of quality.... matching amps in the $2-3k range, but maybe not beating out $8k amps. It's an interesting time in Audio!! |
I’ve tried to get class D to work, and did spend the equivalent of about 6 - 8months of hard work on re-executing one company’s designs. I let it go. It was not me, it was them. They would not allow a modified module to be sold to anyone. As to the OP: you’ll be waiting a long time. Class D is not up to snuff. Nor are the innovators allowed to take it to new places. |
Swampwalker - I drove an A3 Quatro - what a great car !! My son loves his A4 also, but what he really wants is a TT. Another sweet set-up is the turbo 4 Porsche just introduced in their 718 Boxster / Cayman twins. It doesn't sound as good as the old flat 6, but it's lighter and has tons more torque at low rpm...it also makes the car fly. Highly recommended. |
I have 3 Crown I-Tech 5000 HD stereo Class I amps driving JBL M2 Reference Monitors and a JBL Sub18. The speakers are active with the dsp controlled crossover in the amps sending 2250 watts into each horn loaded compression driver tweeter and 2250 watts into each 15" bass driver cut off at 80hz. The sub is served with a bridged Crown offering 4000watts. Obviously, these wattages are impractical for class A or tube amps. The system is somewhat unusual in its power, active crossover, horn tweeter, and in having an 18" sub supplement 15" drivers in the main speakers. However, the result is a system with extreme reserve. The most demanding music passages are handled with grace and incredible impact. No strain. Everything is heard. Also, it seems I am able to get significant dynamic range at 65-70 spl without having to crank the volume up any higher, and running the risk of overloading the room. And this is the point, that there is, perhaps, what might be a trade off between this extreme reserve capability, and the refinement one might otherwise have with Class A amplification. Incidentally, Harman is the parent company of both Crown and Levinson, and both amps share the very same Class I topography, except that one costs 6 times as much. |
I sold my Audio Research tube gear about 8 months ago and replaced it with a full set of Peter Madnick's Audio Alchemy equipment. I really like it. Some of you must have seen the review below...thoughts? http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audio-alchemy-ddp-1-preamplifierdacheadphone-amplifier-dpa-... |
I didn't see any mention of the relatively new NAD M22 amp (using a variation Hypex NC400 NCore modules). It's had some favorable reviews even compared to amps costing 3x as much. Any experience here? I had a Bel Canto EVO up til about 5 years ago - I preferred it in my system to my other class A and A/B amps but I never had a $10,000 amp in my system of A or A/B. I recently bought the NAD M22 and am in process of putting everything together but in a short listen I preferred it to my Adcom GFA555II (the one designed by Nelson Pass), which I thought was excellent. I bought the NAD here second hand so it is broken in. I'm picking up an Auralic Vega today and am excited to hear the combination of it, my NAD amp, Rougue (tube) preamp, and some digital files. |
A few years ago Audio Research released a number of Class D amps. I only listened to a couple of models very briefly so I don't have any personal experience but I recall they got pretty good reviews. It seemed that if an established and quality company was making a move in this direction it warranted serious attention. I was not in the market for a new amp at the time but I did follow vicariously their class D product line and thought this might be something I would be interested in down the road a bit. Apparently they have since abandoned this technology and have concentrated their focus entirely on tubes. I can only assume there was not a large enough market for these digital amps. Anyone have any experience with any of these amps or know more about why they dropped them from their product line? |
To the OP: For many of us, Audiogon has been making high-end available at affordable prices since their beginning. The bargains you are looking for are already here. My wife and I are a retired middle-class couple living on Social Security, and although we did modestly well when we both were working, we could NEVER have afforded the equipment we own today had we bought it new. Only our main system full-range speakers were purchased locally from an audiophile friend who gave us a very generous deal on them when he upgraded. All the other components in our four stereo systems were purchased on Audiogon, and we are deeply grateful to Audiogon and every seller and buyer we dealt with for making it possible. What if you buy something and want to try something else? Re-sell it on Audiogon. You won't lose much money, and you'll have learned a lot from your choices. Don't wait. Do your research and treat yourself to a truly high-end system now! |
somebody commented on Class B amps as having a place in home audio ???? where ??? do you understand Class B topology ?? not in my house ! As for Class D, I've heard the good, bad and ugly. The best I've heard to date is the Rogue Medusa (Hybrid Class D) , actually quite musical driving a pair of Martin Logan Spire's |
Look, I was a curmudgeon myself....as i said, I owned the Class A and AB $20K amps and preamps and the Wilson speakers and the Dyn C4's and the B&W 802D2's etc...! What I am hearing coming out of a $799 BlueSound integrated and Vault 2 feeding my Totem Forest Signatures is crazy good by any measure. In fact, it effortlessly trounces anything I've owned before....maddening actually! 3lb integrated and 40lb speakers absolutely melt my heart and entrance me like nothing I've heard anywhere...period. |
All things digital carry a sense of instant obsolescence once the next version is announced. I wouldn't buy a digital amp because I think it would be a poor boat anchor (too light) in a few years. There are many old "analog" amps, speakers, and tonearm I'd love to have, but any old digital gizmo falls into the Atari, Windows 2000, iPhone4 graveyard. Maybe it's an unfair association with computer products, or an unfair label of "digital" but DAC's have the same arc of obsolescence. Analog dies a slower death in the used market. |
I know some are trying to figure out a way to eliminate the power transformer them even traditional transistor amps will be light. |
So my BlueSound Powenode 2 ($799) and Vault 2 ($1299) won't hold there value? As if we buy for value...what are we Amish? Anyway, based on that premise $2K worth of stuff declines 75% lets say so we are left with $500 worth of gear. My Krell Cipher cost $12K and the highest resale I found was $4500 if mint with all original packaging and less than 2 years old. Most of the big name gear I have sold over the years wound up in the same ball park. Value? Really? High end audio? The value comes from the cost to performance ratio only I'm afraid....no one day trades in audio gear. |
<randyhat> I have been using an Audio Research 150.2 amp for a number of years, working with an Audiio Research LS-25 Mk II, Esoteric K-01 player, and driving Focal Alto Utopia speakers. The 150.2 is based on the old Tripath Class D module, but with other elements designed by AR and built to traditional AR build quality. I play almost 100% classical CD and SACD, and the sound I hear from this setup is excellent to my ears. Specifically, I do not hear the harshness that many mention as coming out of Class D. What I feel that I am hearing is a very clear version of the program material--with all the strengths of well recorded and mastered discs and all the faults of poorly recorded or mastered ones. I have heard the equivalent setup using a Levinson in place of the 150.2 and did not find it significantly better, for my taste. When Tripath went out of business a while back, AR had to move to their own proprietary Class D technology to make amps like the D225 and D450. I think these are now discontinued with no SS replacement from AR. My theory on this latter development is that the new owners of AR are rationalizing their various brands, with AR becoming all-tube gear and McIntosh handling the SS amps they want to sell. |
dave b - I noticed that Bluesound is a sister company of NAD. I put the Auralic Vega in my system with the NAD M22 yesterday- the sound I'm hearing is quite alarming (in a good way). The Auralic needs another 80 hours of break in to boot. Quietest amp I've ever had too. Other than the D-Class amps and the Adcom I mentioned in my previous posts I also had used a very well regarded ATI Class A amp. It got mostly rave ratings except in the portability category (86 pounds!). I recently visited their page and guess what - they are now making and lauding Class D amplification. |
I'd like to mention too that I use Class D amplification in my vehicle system (Alpine) and the sound is far superior to that of the McIntosh amplifier I used about ten years ago. I use it with an Alpine sound processor, 2 pairs of component speakers (Diamond Hex and Focal) and I get a lot of "wow"'s when people hear my system, which is relatively inexpensive. I admit the Alpine sound processor makes a big difference and I didn't have it my system with my Mac. The McIntosh was loud and clear but had nowhere near the detail and clarity of the Alpine. |
I'm 55, so I've had a front row seat to the birth of high end audio and it's many transformations. Old tech is not necessarily better or worse than any other tech, rather, it's performance is dependent on it's execution. Once in awhile we are given a glimpse of what is possible. Digital amplification can and will supplant old technology because it can eliminate the inherent flaws in it's design. Limitations can be removed by simplifying the reproduction chain, adding full digital control of the source material without damaging the signal! Preamplification can be reduced to software...that's absolutely inspired and purist in design. The future is here and the potential is boundless...conventional tech is comparable to the Victrola! |
I only meant that when a consumer technology is going thru its vibrant growth phase, the accelerated pace of development and innovation is accompanied with accelerated depreciation curves as consumers want to ride the front of the wave. Ii really don't care how anyone spends their money, and I've spent my share chasing the edge. |
Really interesting stuff here My two cents Just replaced two behemoth Emotiva amps ( a 5channel and a 2 channel) in the ht rig with a tiny little Nuforce mca-20. Now the tanks were rated at 5x200w and 2x300w and the Nuforce "just" 8x150w. I am pleasantly surprised to say I am totally blown away...literally! The Nuforce puts on quite a show and combined with my Rel Stentor sub (more class D) we are rocking the cabinets with a good action movie. Yes I know the Emotivas are not top flight stuff to begin with but still. Now my stereo rig comprises of BAT VK600SE amp, 2x300w weighing in at 120lb. Just bought a Red Dragon s500 to compare, basically i am going to sit it right next to the BAT and swap cables and see what I think This will be interesting....... |
"Some of you miss the point. The point is simple. As Class D advances it will eat into the high end class A market. We have seen this already happening to a small degree. Some people on this thread indicate they already switched. Once Class D is close enough in quality even some of the deep pocket Krell, Pass etc guys will switch. Once that happens they will sell thier existing gear which will gradually bring the value of that existing gear down giving not so deep pockets the chance to own true high end as it exists today." I think what you forgot to factor into this is if Class-D reaches or surpasses Class-A or A/B, then the prices for Class-D will also reach or surpass Class-A or A/B. Some people may sell, but I don't expect to see pennies on the dollar. If so, I'll be the first one there to grab a pair of XA-160's! |
kalali269 posts02-02-2017 11:06am People going for cheaper, lighter, portability and convenience may not necessarily suggest that huge and heavy Class A or AB amps, vinyl and CDs are dead. Folks using smartphones as their cameras do not suggest that quality compacts and DSLRs will go extinct, or the price of the gear will come down. You may be able to purchase the Pass XA60.8 at "fire sale" prices in perhaps 50 years from now when it's obsolete and no longer a desirable item. |
The thing about many of those big, heavy older Class A amps is that they were made so good. Think about it. Many people still have 1960’s and 70's McIntoshes at the heart of their system. Which of the McIntoshes were Class A? Must have been a secret series they released. The Macs of the 60's were just slightly above class B, nowhere near in range of class A bias. I'm also not impressed with the build quality of the big class A's. I remembered a friend who bought some of the Levinson 25W heavy bias class A amps (got a partial "HQD" system then found he didn't much like it. Put the amps in storage for about 10yrs). Got them out later... oops the filter caps had gone bad. Seriously, old Japanese 70's receivers have sat for that long and powered right up. |
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Once Class D is close enough in quality even some of the deep pocket Krell, Pass etc guys will switch. Once that happens they will sell thier existing gear which will gradually bring the value of that existing gear down giving not so deep pockets the chance to own true high end as it exists today." And why exactly is this going to happen if Class D isn't demosntarbly better? |
Ok, ok, ok...so I hooked up my upgraded Krell Vanguard and compared to the BlueSound Powernode 2 it sounds....drumroll please.....more weighty, organic and smoother with increased presence. I can also turn it up louder and the it doesn't get harsh. That said, I still think that Class D has great potential. |
With so many Class D amps and price points it's not possible so say Class D is not there yet, or I tried and it is not good enough yet etc... All that can really be said is " I tried one or two and that particular amp was not as good as my...." We really cannot paint across the whole Class D universe with a broad brush. It is reasonable you like this or that amp better. I like my digital amp better then many of Tube and Class A amps I have owned, but I cannot say it bests all amps in the amp universe. |
OK a quite a few of us here think that Class D may have already surpassed Class A/B in at least a few instances. It seems that the people critical of Class D amps haven't given them a fair shake/listen (and people please stop referring to them as 'digital amps' as they are not in any way way such). D class has come a long ways in the past 5 years. I liked some characteristics of D Class back then - great high frequency reproduction/detail but I felt a lack of imaging and sound-stage. That has changed with my NAD M22. Not fair to criticize it (Class D) unless you've recently checked it out (which I doubt many of its critics have). As far as vinyl - I have a small record shop within an antique/collectibles shop I own in S. Jersey and I am doing more than quite well selling vinyl to both Millennials and Baby Boomers. Maybe it lasts, maybe not but vinyl is HOT right now and has been for the 3 years I've been doing this. My shop is small and quite diversified and we do well but vinyl is our biggest draw. I specialize in Classic 60s-80s rock in VG+ or better condition and it's cool to see the following we have now in less than six months in business. |
@jimman2 Quite amusing as I have not owned a piece of vinyl in over 15 years but my 16 year old daughter loves her vinyl and has paid some (imho) exorbitant prices for some of them, so yes I would agree that Vinyl is hot right now. And now I am even possibly moving away from a cd spinner with the purchase of a bluesound vault 2 horses for courses |
