High End Amp Price Collapse musings

I think the 'perfect' amp should 'sound' like an exact performance of what is being amplified with zero distortion.  Class D is getting there.  How far has class A really evolved over the past 20 years?  A lot of people posting here claim their 20 year old amps sound better than anything Class D - most still haven't indicated what make/model 'inferior' Class D amps they have recently listened to as comparison - which makes their claims irrelevant.   Further, if a company has a 'signature' sound to their amp/equipment then inherently it is not a correct reproduction of the source no matter how good it sounds.    Put a perfect amp on a good source (which includes preamplification) with good speakers and imaging and sound-stage are going to take care of themselves.  Maybe reviewers will eventually stop using adjectives like 'warm', 'cold', 'fast', 'thin' when reviewing amplifiers - those adjectives could be then used towards source material 

@jimman2

Well, there’s a good argument to have. In the end, we don’t spend money to make oscilloscopes or microphones happy, it is all about what moves us to connect with and replay music, by ourselves or with those we love.

I think there is room for perfection as well as colorful re-production in that.


Best,

E

The thread has lost its focus on the original proposal, which is that IF class D becomes accepted by audiophiles there may be a glut of expensive "Big Iron" on the market at fire sale prices. Many have simply commented that that the IF will not happen because of quality differences between Class A, AB and D, real or perceived.

I would propose that the IF has actually begun to happen as more high end companies release their improved class D designs. I myself am entering into the research phase for new amplification for my 20 year old class massive class A/AB amplified 2 channel set up. One of the products I'm interested in is the BHK Signature 300 Monoblocs from PS Audio, a hybrid tube input/Mosfet output stage design of Bascom King.  At $15k MSRP they are expensive, but far from outlandishly so compared to many other products out there. That is low end Pass and medium end ARC, for example.  But Paul McGowan and his team are releasing a class D mono block that lists for 1/5th the price which naturally piques my curiosity. While I hope that the cheaper amps will not outperform or even remotely equal the sonics of their more expensive brethren, the question will most certainly be how musically satisfying are they for 1/5th the price.  If the answer is anything north of 80%, or simply fine nuance differences, I would have to seriously think about it before pulling the trigger on the 300s. Obviously since I am even considering the 300s I can afford them, but that is certainly not the case for many audiophiles.  $15k amps probably reside in $50k systems realistically.  But in a $20k system, which probably represents a lot of audiophiles, $3k amps would allow more opportunity to upgrade speakers, or add a music server or analog rig, etc. This will be good for high end manufacturers and I hope to see the technology continue to improve.

Agreed! I am listening to a Lyngdorf 2400 that is Class D and simply outstanding! Easily makes it obvious I can sell off those back breaking  70 pound amps of my past. This amp is simply outstanding! 

I am very happy with the Nuforce HT amp I am now running, about 35lb vs TWO 82lb lumps I was previously running.
Only downside I really have now is....what do I do with all that wide open empty rack space?

@speeddeacon 
'While I hope that the cheaper amps will not outperform or even remotely equal the sonics of their more expensive brethren...'  I don't understand why you would say that and you better get to much better than 80% if you are going to spend that kind of money.

My dream is that  a cheap amp outperforms and supercedes any amp no matter the price.  

And you can see, all this discussion is really not off-post as the Class A audiosnobs have already stated that Class D is vastly inferior (without citing specific direct comparisons) ...so those people will continue to pay whatever for those amps and thus the prices will NOT plummet.  Part of being an audiosnob is the appearance of their amp BTW - gotta have that 3/4 inch thick machined faceplate with fancy logo.  Remember though that's not just for appearance, that makes their amp sound much better due to the distortion reducing affect and the overall improvement to imaging and soundstage.

@jimman2, it's time to come clean.
Do you have some skin in this game?

You joined Audiogon 3 months ago, have 15 posts, ALL on this thread.
Don't you have any interest in anything audio related other than amplifiers?

You seem to enjoy busting on other folks amplifier purchases, but no interest in speakers, digital, analog, music, tech talk, or anything else in this hobby.

Are you a dealer or manufacturer? If not, what is your problem?

I've been on Audiogon for many years and have made numerous other posts in the past on different subjects - if I remember Audiogon went through some major changes in the past few years.

I (again state) that I find it interesting that numerous people owning Class A amplifiers bash Class D (in this thread) without indicating what (Class D) they've listened to.  I've made that point several times to no meaningful response.  I've never busted on anyone for owning Class A - my point is simply that if you are going to say something is better than something else it would help if you've listened to the something else and if you haven't your opinion is therefore not valid.  Analogy - I think apples are great but oranges suck and BTW I've never eaten an orange.  Maybe now you understand the point of my 16 posts.  When I get time I'm going to read through this entire post and list the quotes I think are not credible and why I think such.

P.S. I checked my status and I have positive feedback on Audiogon back to 2008 so I've been a member of this community at least that long.  

If you do a little research Danish company Lyngdorf has several patents 
and has technologies that use far less feedback then most digital companies ,
use the latest Hispeed Mosfets  and only a pr of Poly caps on the output 
the 2400 model I listened to ,that I am buying beat my dual mono a pass labs 
in several key areas .with my new Sonusfaber Olympica-3 speakers they are pretty nimble and prefer soundthing  very musical but also nimble the Lyngdorf 
at $2500 in my opinion is as good perhaps even a little more fleshed out in sounds then the Merrill which I heard side by side  for sure the best bass I have heard in the $4k and under class.  They also have a model with excellent room correction built in .i would have liked that  the 2400 model is 200, and 400 wpc .

Yes I own the 2170 and it replaced $20,000 worth of separates! Love it! Combines SOTA room correction, with a great DSP dac and outstanding amp as you mention.

I have owned great separates from the likes of TRL, CJ, Aesthetix, Canary, Von Gaylord, Tom Evans, Parasound, Blue Circle, Cary, Atmasphere, Bruce Moore, Lector,  and others. This little 2170 from Lyndorf is my favorite. No more interconnects, only one power cord, no digital cables, very short signal paths, and a resulting sound that is spectacular.

Granny,

I'm glad to hear you are really enjoying the 2170.
I have that one on my list to check into I haven't seen much info about it though.

Do you have a dealer close or were you able to listen to one before buying?

Best,

Kenny.

Just call Neal at Sound Science and he will work with you. I purchased my music server from him also. We both replaced some $20,000 - $25,000 in separates it's the 2170.  

http://www.soundsciencecat.com

This is an amazing and rational thread. I am currently auditioning a  Nuprime ST10 and Red Dragon S500 class D amps, but well $2K, and they are quite good.  However, these class D amps do, frankly, seem less musically involving that that fine tube amps. The class D amps are astonishing clarity and LF control, but neither of the modestly-priced class D amps I am auditioning can come close to matching the appealing mid-range bloom of a my tube amp. However, they excel in other respects.

Finally, a shout-out to Tgonzales and Guidocorona for two of the most erudite posts I have had the pleasure of reading on Audiogon.  Sharp guys, these two.   "Rational audiophiles" is an oxymoronic descriptor.  We might fancy that we are such, but we are really, in the main, religious zealots passionately devoted to that particular aspect of musical reproduction that moves us, and the gear that makes the happen.  As the Buddha said, "There are many paths..."  

I do note in passing that there are boatloads of sellers of uber-expensive amplifiers on Audiogon and Audio Mart that will be fortunate enough to recover 50% of the cost of their gear in the aftermarket.  I don't think class D amps have moved the needle to much, but clearly they are garnering market share.   I have never played in this realm of costly gear myself, but there are clearly winners and losers in the bargain.  It is symmetrical in that the loss the sellers will bear will be the same benefit the buyers will receive.  With the plethora of gear for sale in the on-line aftermarket so heavily discounted, I question the wisdom of buying new gear. Personally, I prefer to buy used whenever possible.

The End of Days is coming folks Repent your sins!!

Class D will run the planet.

The universe I say! 

#1 Granny

That's Funny I don't care who you are.

Best,

Kenny.