There's a lot of chatter about the benefits of those high prices gold plated fuses with silver conductor etc. etc. all over the web and the consensus ranges from FANTASTIC!!! to much more subtle observations.
It makes sense to me, epseically in light of spending lots of $$$ on good power cables, that having a skinny piece of aluminum conductor in a glass tube (i.e. a cheap fuse), in the power loop would be detrimental to the performance of the components.
I decided to revamp my DIY power supply I'd built for the Cambridge Audio 640p phono stage and DACmagic in order to test this out - and since it's a DIY project there is no UL Certification to void.
First, I bypassed the fuse link completely to confirm there would be an improvement and give me the best benchmark to compare against - YEP - BIG DIFFERENCE - much more this, that and the other :-)
So then I started looking for hi-fi fuses - WOW!!! - talk about pricey.
Two fuses for the power supply was going to cost $120+ AND I thought I'd probably have to buy a better quality fuse block to make the most of those fuses.
Then a moment of enlightenment - most power supplies and conditioners are protected by pushbutton breakers and not fuses.
I found breakers of the required current rating and installed them into the power supply. I imediately noticed that there was no deteriation in fidelity when compared to the same unit with the fuse link bypassed - GREAT!.
On reflection, the fuses I had in place were rated at 3 amps - so they use a pretty thin fuse wire in them. If I had used a fuse of a higher rating, i.e. it uses a thicker conductor, then I believe that there would be less of a difference between the fused and bypassed implementations
SO - do the expensive fuses work?
Well the empirical evidence out there would suggest they do - I do know the cheap fuses are not good!
I know bypassing them does improve the sound - a lot in my case - BUT THAT'S NOT SAFE FOR ONGOING USE
I know breakers work as good as bypassing the fuse - BUT MESSING WITH A POWER SUPPLY VOIDS UL CERTIFICATION - NOT GOOD! - FYI a couple of licensed technicians I know WILL NOT change the design of a power supply at all.
I believe the amount of benefit is related to the fuse rating - but don't go replacing 3 amp fuses with a 20 amp fuse - that's not safe either.
Whilst looking for fuses I discovered AMR Gold fuses priced at $20/fuse.
Now that's definately more affordable than most others at 3-4 times their price.
If you have had experience with quality fuses please share - especially if they are "modestly priced" i.e. $20-$30 per fuse. And please provide a source :-)
Also, can anypne confirm that Slow blow fuses are better than regular?
And Remember - IF YOU AIN'T LICENCED - GET A TECHNICIAN!
Most manufacturers I have spoken with not only don't buy into the audio-specific fuse thing, they advise against it because of questionable ratings and quality. Last year, I spoke with the head service guy at one of the largest component manufacturers in the US and he said their company was continuing to discuss how to address aftermarket fuses and the effect on warranty, but their current position was that the use of an aftermarket fuse would void the warranty in the event of damage of a questionable nature (that should have been prevented by the stock fuse). I do know one manufacturer/upgrader who recommends audio fuses in their products but they actually go a half amp higher than with regular fuses because they suspect the audio fuse they use is underrated (because the component kept blowing those fuses until they upped the amperage). I used to use HiFi Tuning fuses, back when I tried things "just in case" they would make a difference, but I haven't heard a difference compared to stock fuses and I don't worry about fuses and other "last one percent" stuff much anymore. One thing I would be careful of is bumping fuses up one amp as recommended earlier in this thread. Depending on the rating of the fuse being replaced, a 1A increase could be significant and in general, IMO you are taking a chance on both warranty and protection of your gear when you deviate from the manufacturer's rating.
Mitch2, The bottom line: if someone is overly suspicious or not competent changing fuses and or insuring proper fuse direction he should probably not get into the whole fuse thing. On the other hand, if someone can't hear the effect of aftermarket fuses or fuse directionality, that's a different issue, and it might "point" to a larger problem. It's sometimes difficult to generalize about these things. For example one reason someone might not hear differences between a stock fuse and a HiFi Fuse is that they were both inserted in the wrong direction.
Mitch2, as usual, you post is well reasoned. It is my practice to do nothing to a piece still under warranty. The risk benefit equation just doesn't favor tweaking in that instance. With respect to replacement fuses, it has been my experience that the only place they made a huge difference was in my Magneplanars. It makes sense that one might hear a more pronounced benefit there. Improvements in other applications have been audible but more subtle. Enough to warrant spending the relatively low cost of most fuses, but not the same order of magnitude as the improvements one can obtain with a change in cables for instance.
I think people need to be realistic in their expectations and think about cost-benefit and risk-benefit. Would I spend $100 to replace the mains fuse in my Cary's? Yes. Would I spend $1000 to replace the rest of the fuses in the Carys? No.
As far as messing with the ratings, I have used a lower rated fuse, but I would never use a higher rated fuse. If a replacement fuse of the correct rating continues to blow, I would probably just go back to stock.
If fuses blow, then there is a flaw in the component or in the design. Upgraded fuses will blow when called upon.I speak from experience. I also speak from experience that solid wire in place of a fuse never did any harm to any amp, tube or solid state or speaker that I used it in, but... I don't suggest anyone do this.And you don't have to anymore to get better sound.
I bypassed stock fuses with wire in the follwing-Mission 770, CLS11Z,Nads,Classe DR 8's, Michelson and Austin TVA 10,RGR amp and pre amp,Magnepans,Blue Circle monos,various Brit integrateds and el 34 tube based amps,in fact almost every amp or speaker I've owned from the early 80's on to the day I switched to upgraded fuses.
I know I was walking on thin ice, my friends would always flinch when I'd fire up the system keeping a close eye on the nearest exit.
Nothing ever happened.Perhaps I was lucky,or just that the gear was in good shape. Had any of the gear been shoddy I would not have been so lucky.
But I don't have to tempt fate anymore.
The upgraded fuses that I have experience with sound better than the stock fuses, come close to using no fuse, but give me all the SAME (I've blown then in wrong placement)protection a cheap one buck wonder does.
I find it very interesting that some manufacturers place so much faith in the simple cheap stock fuse.
There are other ways to provide thermal protection without using these cheap fuses. Some high quality amps go this alternate route, but you pay for it.Using cheap stock fuses saves money.
I would be a bit suspect of any pricey power amp that still uses the cheap stock fuses. If they cut corners here looking to save a buck, wherelse are they compromising quality for profit margins?
I remember one manufacturer of pro PA speakers that used a good old light bulb inside his cabinet to soak up any power overloads before they destroyed the driver.
Cheap off the shelf fuses weren't in his design notebook, although I am sure others use them in the same application.
I agree that where you apply the upgraded fuse to get the most for your investment is at the IEC inlet, or main power fuse.
If Maggie owners can be trusted when they say that replacing the stock fuse,or bypassing it altogether and hardwiring, makes their speakers sound better,and Peter Aczel, the great audio myth buster,denounced the sound degradation of fuses,some 40 years ago,then there must be more than snake oil involved.
In fact 40 years ago,I can't recall too much of anything being called snake oil except for those fancy high priced alternatives to good old tried and tested 18 guage zip cord.
Yes siree, 18 guage zip cord,does the job, doesn't blow up my amp and makes me feel proud about not spending any more than a few cents a foot for it.
I was thinking some more about the need to replace old fuse holders when you use upgraded fuses.
If you follow that logic, then you should replace the RCA's on your amp,pre etc when you switch interconnects, replace the binding posts when you change speaker wires and replace all tube sockets when you swap out or replace tubes.
In the grand scheme of things and going the extra mile I would agree to this also, and I have replaced all the stock connections in my rig from the panel to the connectors on the gear.
It does make a difference.
So if I ever come across upgraded fuse holders that are compatible with my amps I will do it.
Everyone has opinons and all are equally respected, just the opinons from those who have experienced the fuse are a bit more respected than the opinons from those who have not.
One opinon is based on experience the other on speculation .
I've heard a lot of fuses over the years. I'm pretty sure most of the gear I have listened to had one or more inside. :)
I've even seen a few first hand opening up units that had problems like channels out, etc. for customers.
They all sounded pretty good to me. Except the blown ones, of course.
Its been a while though. Maybe fuse technology has made great strides since. A lot of newer stuff that I think sounds really good probably have fuses inside doing their thing.
@Lacee- I believe it was Ivor Tiefenbrun(founder of Linn), that was quoted as having said, "If you haven't heard it; you have no opinion." Of course; that was just his opinion. BTW: Having already upgraded everything that you mention in your previous post(except my tube sockets); I'm still trying to find those upgraded(metallugically) fuse holders.
Which is best - Synergistic Research, Audio Magic Nano Liquid, HiFi Tuning Supreme, Furutech, Isoclean and AMR? And which is best when using WA Quantum Chip?
Geoffkait: I have tried stock, Isoclean, and Synergistic Research fuses in the same location. I preferred the Synergistic Research improvement. I believe both the Synergistic Research and Audio Magic have a money back trial policy. I would try those two in both directions. I did not find the WA chips to be a Quantum improvement on fuses.
Value wise I would say the AMR fuses are hard to beat,of course not compared to the cost of stock fuses. Soundwise they are also close to the sound of the HiFi Supremes in my system,it was only after I replaced the Supremes that I noticed more slam and body to the sound of my system. I should add, I used the same WA chips on both fuse types and felt they improved the sound of whatever fuse they were on, even the stock fuses. Amazingly the WA chips still have enough stickiness to be moved from fuse to fuse, but I think that's pushing things a tad too far.Better to just buy more new chips from here on. Perhaps in the future I'll experiment with some other fuses.
The fuse debates have settled it seems,but I also haven't read about any fuse being the top dog.
It would be very much system dependant anyway,but it would be nice if aftermarket fuses could have some sort of descriptors assigned to them.
For example-the HiFi Supremes, to me, would be the 3ooB of fuses. The AMR would be EL 84. So depending on how your system is voiced you could(a taboo?)voice your sound accordingly.
I personally find nothing wrong by fine tuning a system using tubes or wires or fuses to achieve the type of sound that the owner desires. Which seems to be shunned by most in this hobby.
Yet some folks cry about how the new gear tends to be too sterile for them, so they seek out gear which has colourations more to their liking, or they seek out vintage gear with tone controls.Using interconnect as tone controls is frowned upon ,it's better to buy another amp or pre amp.Yeah, that makes way more sense!
As I grow older, I don't like that over laid back sound ,but that's because my old ears need as much detail as they can get to make things sound right.My ears have built in high frequency filters. Younger ears perhaps,tend to go for a more polite sound.
So I can't see any harm dome if anyone states that they use interconnects, speaker wires, NOS tubes or fuses to build a sound that they and they alone find solace with.
We should all be thankful that we have so many choices.
Well I own the AMR, HIFI Supremes, Audio Magic, and the Synergistic fuses. And my choice is...
It depends on the equipment.
The Supremes seem to add larger stage presence but on some equipment they sound bass shy, but on other equipment not so.
SR fuses really sound better with the WA Sticker and have more dynamics with a little more slam in the lower bass and on some equipment its nice and on some its overkill.
Strangely the Audio Magic goes through a mini break in process and at this point (2 days)its hard to tell just how far things can improve. Its a little darker sounding which again sounds good with some equipment and not so with other.
I have the AMR fuses but I have not tried them yet.
No offense boys, but do you really think that if the quality of a fuse was a factor in the sound and performance of a high end amp that the designer of that amp would have addressed it ? Did I hear ....BONEHEADS!!..............
Pack, Some manufacturers encourage their customers to try higher quality fuses. This is no different than customers who are given the green light to roll different tubes from a builder who used cheaper stock tubes in the component. Most builders can't offer the best available tubes due to cost and target price point considerations. Same is true of capacitors, wire and resistors, it's easy to upgrade these parts to achieve better sound, again manufacturers have cost restraints to factor in terms of final product cost. So a 20 dollar fuse will lose out to a 20 cent fuse with overall final cost comes into play.
Unless a component is cost no object, there will be inevitable compromising to stay within a predetermined price range
You don't seem to get the point, When Nelson Pass designs an amp, every consideration is taken into account in the circuit layout. Ya they cost some bucks,but check out the rail fuses. Pass would laugh at your mumbo jumbo as I do, you tweak guys should pay more attention to physics than some sales "pro". There seems to be no end to the lunacy out there .
You can read up on all the physics you want and until you experience what a fuse upgrade can do, you are just book smart.
Mumbo jumbo physics,which is limited to what can and cannot be measured and mumbo jumbo tweaks are no different.
The followers of either can be fooled by what they have read and by preconceived notions.
Be a real man of science,embrace it's ethics and "do the experiment" and varify with your own ears and post your own findings.
Don't rely on the opinions, experiences of others ,in order to pass the physics exam you have to do the test,do the experiments, not just read the book.
Most of the folks who build this stuff refuse to admit that their offspring can be coaxed into even better performers.
I'll give Pass credit, he never stops at one design,he keeps working on different ways to skin the cat. If he were stunted by just the findings of the physics that came before, he would never have progressed to where he is now. Would you call this the behaviour of a lunatic?
Perhaps his designs are so great that an upgraded fuse isn't necessary. But how many amps are as good as his?
No sales pro forced me to try upgraded Designer fuses, only 30 years past experiences with bypassing fuses with DIY wire, gleaned from reading about the sonic impact fuses can have from the old Audio Critic Peter Aczel.
"Mumbo jumbo physics,which is limited to what can and cannot be measured and mumbo jumbo tweaks are no different.
The followers of either can be fooled by what they have read and by preconceived notions."
Mumbo jumbo is hard to bank on in any case.
Especially in the case of a decision based on mumbo jumbo, a money back guarantee to go along with it should be provided. Otherwise, I will pass personally in most cases.
Hi Pack, Don't understand your " mumbo jumbo" reference. I was curious and purchased the SR Quantum fuses to try myself and their use was sonically beneficial. That's all that matters for me, results. If you tried them and weren't impressed then that's your experience but it isn't mine.
If you haven't tried them or refuse to do so based on principle, well then you're merely expressing an opinion which is irrelevant to me. If you believe audio components can't be improved in some cases be using better tubes, fuses, parts etc. Then that's a very narrow minded stance but that's your prerogative certainly. I believe in simply listening and then forming a conclusion rather than adopting a preconceived know it all perspective. Charles,
I'd trust Nelson Pass to know the right fuse to use in his products.
Not to say changing a fuse might not sound different for many reasons case by case but predicting how in advance is a pot shot.
Plus, ehenever one mucks with the internals of a complex device there is some risk, but if fuse replacement is done correctly and with a reliable product, there should be no problem. If. And if not product warranties are voided in the process.
Most everything one buys these days is easily returnable/refundable. Companies with poor customer service/customer satisfaction policies do not survive long.
As long as the fuse is what is says electronically and works accordingly, no real risk then if good customer service is in place.
WHat if something unexpected happens to the device as a result of changing the fuse? Shit can and does happen. Each knows best how qualified they are to attempt whatever it is they might attempt and deal with things as needed if something should go wrong unexpectedly.
Just being real. Everyone can judge for themselves best what to do or not.
Well said Mapman, We all make our choices as we see fit. I just don't need someone telling me or others what will or won't work when we've actually done the listening and report our individual outcomes. That is the ultimate test, otherwise it's only conjecture. Charles,
Just remember, the mere action of removing and re-inserting a fuse alone COULD make a difference, if the new electric contacts are better/cleaner as a result of the process.
That aside, if one fuse sounds better/different than another in repeated test cases, that's hard to refute.
"Just remember, the mere action of removing and re-inserting a fuse alone COULD make a difference, if the new electric contacts are better/cleaner as a result of the process.
That aside, if one fuse sounds better/different than another in repeated test cases, that's hard to refute.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
