Lacee: Not all designs lend themselves to that kind of modification. From power cords to internal wiring.
I still think its a stretch that a fuse, now as simple as it is could be such an object of desire, so to speak. At some time, I'll just let that go.
If the gear priced in the statosphere (today's reality) has been built with a cost is no object way, it still seems kind of odd that someone might still find shortcomings (non "audiophile" fuses). No one has mentioned if any products such as that actually have gold cryo treated fuses, fuse holders etc. Aren't many or most of these "mods" driven by the aftermarket?
Certainly, my particular stuff would suffer greatly from such changes. But that's neither here nor there...If, for example the power cord on my 7T can handle 1100 watts, that is 9 amps, & the tested load as I use it, averages 1.5 amps or less, how much more overcapacity might one need for something to show up? It is also fused @ 1/8 amp. & comsumes 9 watts. And, let's not for purpose of those questions, consider audio performance as subjectively as some do here. |
Gvsale,is your gear so perfect that it cannot be improved?
You fear your "stuff would suffer greatly from such changes".
You are 100% certain of that?
You are throwing a lot of stuff out there such as "how much more overcapacity might one need for something to show up".
That may make sense to you, but you are missing the point about upgrades.
It's not about how much bigger,it's about how much better.
I used an upgraded fuse in a DecWare Zen 2 watt amp that cost 1/6 the price of the amp.
I plugged a Shunyata Annaconda power cord into the amp,the power cord was almost 4 times the cost of the amp.
Neither upgrade morphed the amp into a Krell with a 1000watts,but, Mr.Deckert and others will tell you that it's how good the first watt sounds that matters most, not how many.
So gear that can handle 1100watts /9 amps using a 1/8 amp fuse means moot to me.
I'm just concerned about how good I can make those all important first few watts sound.
So irregardless of what you think audio is all about,it means somethingelse to others.
In my experience, the amp just performed better with the fuse and power cord upgrade.
Those two watts were cleaner, more robust and would lead you to believe they gave you a few more watts than the two I started out with.
Of course that wasn't what was happening.
What was happening was that those important first few watts were given a bit less distortion, and because the electricity was cleaned up, or made to flow a bit more freely, the sound also was able to bloom.
More of what makes an SET low watt amp sound so pure and good,just became more apparant than before.
Subjective,yes, but repeatable results none the less.
Switching things back to normal, or stock, was a step back in information detail, clarity,and there was a loss of body.
Put the power cord and fuse back in and the little DecWare sprang back to life, able to reveal just how good this little wonder is.
But the same results are there when I use upgraded power cords and fuses in my cd player,and speakers, and phono stage.
That spare Annaconda is now used to power up my $60.00 TerDak power supply!
And yes way overkill, but it makes my Lightspeed Attenuator sound so much better than the wallwart.
Remember, it was a spare, I certainly don't think anyone needs a power cord of this price to make the TeraDak sing, but it hasn't hurt it's performance or made the gear "suffer" because of it.
So a pretty decent amp for the money can sound even better with upgraded fuse and power cord.The amp doesn't have to be 1100watts, it can be a two watt amp.
The power cord was a spare from when I ran mono blocks, I wouldn't suggest that anyone with a DecWare amp needs an expensive power cord or fuse to make it sound good.
But it is also good enough to let you hear the improvements such stuff can make.
If there was no difference in sound I could have concluded two things.
The first would be that which you might conclude, that the amp was so good it didn't need any help.
The second conclusion would be one that I would make, the amp was of such poor design and so distorted that nothing could make it sound any better.
I have personally never owned any piece of audio gear that was so good or so bad that it's sound couldn't be improved with an upgraded part or two.
That goes for vintage and new tube gear, solid state, and any speakers that were fuse protected.
It was easy to hear how anything with a power cord or a fuse was hindered by the quality of the fuse and power cord.
I hate to keep rehashing the fuse issue, but it was Peter Aczel from the Audio Critic of the late 70's early 80's who brought this to my attention way back when.
Nothing has changed,except that we now have some alternatives to using stock, sound degrading fuses, if we choose to.
Until this happened I was bypassing them,enjoying better sound, but was skating on thin ice.
Thankfully that's no longer necessary. |
Lacee: Thanks for the continuing discussion. The 7T back panel has no room for such a power cable change as "like a computer." I could drill out the opening where the stock power cord enters, but enlarge it to what size? One with a 20 amp capacity? or 30?...therefore the question. The power amplifiers are somewhat compact & also have no room based on layout. They have a compact inner structure with horizonatal & vertical aspects to their assembly. I could put new electrolytics in there, but the cost of them is huge.
Something like $300.00 each from what a quick web search indicated, and I'm not in a position of spend $2400.00 on the eight capacitors. If you would like, I sure there are photos of the 7T & 16 on the internet...you might get a better idea of my point of view.
WRT, could any improvements be made? I suppose so, but to me my first watt or first few watts are very pleasing to me.
As I mentioned before, at what are normal(for me) listening levels, power consumption is very low, total power consumption in the order of 150 watts or less and a voltage across 8 ohms is usually less than 2 volts.
Additionally, there is no possibility that I could ever experiment say, switching between SETs (would need 4)because the current setup is also biamplified. One would need an extensive, expensive switching setup for a task like that. One could never otherwise accurately AB test. While I hear people rave about SET apms I have not experienced one yet.
I suspect the experience might not make it to my bucket list.
But for me the question still if the monumental cost which you say you have expended would be beneficial to me.
That is way out of my price range. Thanks for your input.
BTW, years ago I did hear what was probably the "best" speaker of its day which were KLH 9s. Right where I worked, 2 pairs not 1 pair. They were pretty impressive. Then there were the Dayton Wright gas filled electrostatics which were also impressive. Neither would be suitable for SET use as I understand. These were in a shop (retail) setting, not in a well plotted out room.
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Snake oil, plain and simple. And, unless your power cord cannot handle the amperage required, spending uber bux on a PC is a fool's game.
Think about it, why is it that NO hi-end mfgr. I'm aware of includes these magic beans (fuses and PCs) with their gear? If these things *really* improved the sound, they would be installed at the factory. This is a prime example of audiophilia nervosa trumping common sense and basic electrical physics...
-RW- |
Pack nailed it, the "improvements" you hear come from expectation bias. After all, if you spend $5,000 for a power cord and $100 for a fuse, you damn sure *will* hear an improvement. Wake up fellas, your expectations are trumping common sense and basic physics...
-RW- |
Lacee wrote: "And from this you might even conclude that anything, even a simple fuse,that is in the signal path can also have an effect on your sound."
Lacee, the fuse is NOT in the signal path. It simply allows the juice to flow to the equipments' power supplies - no more and no less. Expensive hi-fi fuses are a prime example of audiophile snake oil.
You guys crack me up...
-RW- |
Lacee wrote: "So irregardless of what you think audio is all about,it means somethingelse to others."
Surely, Lacee, you know that "irregardless" is not a word? How can anyone place any value on your proclamations when you obviously don't even know basic English?
And another point - how much effort, time, and money have you spent improving your speaker/room interaction? Like most others involved in this crazy hobby, I'm willing to bet that you haven't done all you could to better that aspect of your system.
Improving that will yield sound quality that is order of magnitudes greater than what you are supposedly achieving with your fuse and power cord changes. Until you have properly setup the speakers and the room, all of your other efforts are for naught...
-RW- |
Mr R: Spoken(typed) as a true Litho-cephal. Perhaps it escapes you; virtually everything, as related to electricity, is referred to as, "theory." That would be because nothing has been actually observed on the quantum level, as yet. NOTHING, regarding Electrical Theory, is yet set in stone(except, perhaps, your head). |
Surely, Lacee, you know that "irregardless" is not a word? How can anyone place any value on your proclamations when you obviously don't even know basic English? What an incredibly dickish thing to say. |
Thanks for the response Gvasale,as I mentioned,some things are easier to mod than others, and what we have to accept is never the ultimate.
This could be gear related room related, power related and most importantly cash related.
We do what we do and "irregardless" or what some may think, we do reap the rewards of going the extra mile.
Those who never venture into these areas will never know how good they can make their systems sound, but then of course to their ears,what they have is the best, and everything not purchased at goodwill is a waste of money.
I have old Acoustat X electrostatic full range speakers with their matching output transformerless tube servo amps.
The speakers are directly wired to the amps, no need for speaker wires.
The amps are each powered on separate 20 amp dedicated lines from the panel on 10 guage romex and terminated in Furutech 15 amp rhodium f48 ends into matching Furutech rhodium IEC in the amps.The RCA in the amps were modded to Furutech top level inputs and the connectors of the interconnects are all CF 102R.The fuses are AMR or HiFi tuning Supremes-the less costly mods I've made.
They are placed properly in my room which is a dedicated listening room 30 x 22x8 and I have ASC room tuning devices.
I can very easily hear differences in fuses,and despite my supefluous language and lack of spelling skills,I have somehow managed to get a very realistic sound.
But it took time and effort and a few dollars to get there.
Now I can't measure the difference in sound after the upgrades,but I can hear it.
Nowhere near the sound that I had before I did the upgrades.
The fuses are a miniscule but important link in the chain, and those unfamiliar with how important the chain is from the panel to the speakers know what I am talking about.
Those who don't get it, or have not chalked up enough experience with decent gear,would say things like " a fuse is not in the signal path".
My friend, everything from the panel to the speaker is in the "signal path".
It's all in how you interpret my bad englishe. |
More bad language skills.
I meant to say"those Familiar with how important the chain is from the panel to the speakers"
I should use the preview option I "s'pose." |
Aren't you glad that English skills have absolutely no bearing on one's aural acuity or electronics aptitude? =;^) |
This has turned into a lively conversation, everybody is thinking. Here is an suggestion regarding sound : If you isolate your power amp ,your pre-amp and your CD player with electromagnetic shielding ( find it on the web , its cheap! ) If you do this ,you will be amazed, nothing short of total sonic improvement will be had...........pure science boys ! |
Faraday cages are somewhat difficult to fully implement & can be unsightly, However, I once had a customer which because of lack of space needed to put one component of top of another & I used some aluminum foil to reduce hum.
Many solid state electronic devices are totaly enclosed in metal or have metal screened openings for ventilation. Not quite as necessary for analog as for digital devices unless you live in a metro area with either a radio station or some large computer installation close by. Digital devices tend to radiate elcetronic noise as opposed to analog unless you're talking tv. I don't even notice too much noise from the oscillators in am radio. |
Pack,
Are you referring to mu-metal for example?
I use mu-metal foil shielding around my phono step-up transformer to keep hum and noise levels down. Works like a charm, cut and dry, easily audible to anyone save the hard of hearing perhaps! No weird science involved whatsoever. |
I've used this stuff for decades, with great success: (http://www.emsclad.com/examples/emi-rfi-shielding.html), puchased here(page 14): (http://www.percyaudio.com/Catalog.pdf) Looks like production has stopped on it though. I guess I'll be using the Stillpoints sheets, for the next projects. |
Rod, how do you use the TI SHIELD? What size sheet? |
To reduce the toxic effects of magnetic fields on all wiring, electrical elements, etc. all transformers - especially big honking toroidal transformers and transformers the size of apartment buildings - should be entirely covered top, bottom and all around with at least two layers of mu metal, each layer separated by a narrow gap. Fuses should obviously also be protected by little mu metal houses. One of the big overlooked are those little innocuous looking ribbon cables that pop up everywhere in electronics these days,they are very vulnerable to both RFI and magnetic fields. |
I have an unfortunate(cramped) home listening environment, that requires my equipment to be arranged in a cabinet/rack, one component above another(shelved). I'm using sheets of TI Shield under and/or above every component, to block emissions. I've also surrounded my power supplies, when feasible. I bought mine from Michael Percy Audio, who then supplied 12 X 24 and 12 X 48 inch sheets. |
Some shields are for vicinity of big magnets of speakers which are high gauss high frequency, others like the typical mu metal these days is for low gauss low frequency applications such as around components, transformers.
Cheers,
Geoff Kait |
