I would say that a cheap fuse,with it's paper thin glass envelope may be more prone to disaster after repeatedly removing it.
I don't think it wise to infer that this practise is just as good as trying a new fuse.
You know how some feeble minds can be swayed when they read about such practises.
If you like stock fuses and aren't interested in trying an upgrade leave well enough alone.
I would note that in 30 years of running DIY fuses or bypassing them altogether I ner once had a meltdown or accident.
I am not endorsing this practise,just as I wouldn't endorse removing and reinserting stock fuses to try and get an improvement in sound.
What I can state is that in every instance,the sound with the stock fuse was inferior to what I replaced it with, in more than one component and over 3 decades.
I have been using upgraded fuses for the past 4 or 5 years and have not had any problems in any of the components(cd ,amps, pre)that I've used them in.
I can also state that when one does do something stupid like not pay close attention to the small fuse values, a HiFI Supreme fuse will blow, so yes they do what they are supposed to do, and that is self destruct before something else does. |
Most of what is relevant, in audio as in life, is unmeasurable.
Doing Newton in a Quantam world . |
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Schubert, that's true, but as in other areas of life where budgeted money is involved, the informed person who alerts us to charlatans and deceivers provide a valuable service, but are often harassed for their efforts. It's nice to be romantic, but important to know when something is a sparkly fake diamond even if we have every right to buy it. |
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"No one can accuse you of taking sides"
I take the side that facts are facts and alone may be sufficient to achieve ones goals, but what can be predicted reliably based on the facts is never 100% certain.
In home audio, that which lies beyond the facts is very much the "twilight zone" that is high end audio, where ordinary things do not happen very often. |
One has to have hands on experience before they can state what is fact what is fiction.
You need to compare one to the other not speculate.
You have to do the experiment.
Until that is so,I say all is fiction, until proven as fact. |
And something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones ?
You have many contacts
Among the lumberjacks
To get you facts
When someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect
Anyway they already expect you
To all give a check
To tax-deductible charity organizations.
You've been with the professors
And they've all liked your looks
With great lawyers you have
Discussed lepers and crooks
You've been through all of
F. Scott Fitzgerald's books
You're very well read
It's well known.
:-) |
Electro, I 've use those fuses in Maggies for decades.
They work. |
"One has to have hands on experience before they can state what is fact what is fiction."
No doubt. And we all have unique experiences to share.
Regarding fuses, I would say its a fact that no two electrical devices, including fuses, are 100% equal. Even two instances of the same design may not function 100% equivalently. So it is reasonable to expect that each performs differently. How much so and to what effect is the only question case by case. Plus all teh things that go along with that to determine value, which is pretty much always in the eye of the beholder/consumer. |
So gotta ask this question.
Is it a fact that there is no "snake oil" involved with fancy fuses?
Based on my experience, I would say there is no basis to say this is a fact.
Almost anything marketed for profit is likely to include some "snake oil" in the mix to make things more appealing.
Are fancy fuses any worse than the norm?
I'd say in general high end audio in general is perhaps worse than normal, with the more "esoteric" products providing a strong bias that way.
I'd say fancy fuses qualify as a fairly esoteric product. Definitely NOT the most out there in concept though. |
Mapman wrote,
"Regarding fuses, I would say its a fact that no two electrical devices, including fuses, are 100% equal. Even two instances of the same design may not function 100% equivalently. So it is reasonable to expect that each performs differently. How much so and to what effect is the only question case by case. Plus all teh things that go along with that to determine value, which is pretty much always in the eye of the beholder/consumer."
I don't think I've seem quite so much angst and bs in more than a fortnight. |
Prices are high in audio because the makers know damn well we're a bunch of suckers. And I'm first in line. |
OK, I guess you guys think with your audio hearts and thats OK,after all if one thinks its true then in his ears it may be so. But if you do a square wave sweep thur a circuit with its well thought out fuse you will see no difference at all. I stand by my statement that its all in your head, please take no offense, I think your passion is why we love the Audio arts and this love drives the engine of progress. |
I'm an old guy pushing 64.
I've been at this hobby for over 40 years and I've seen the same comments made back in the day when people started to state that the standard 18-22 guage zip cord was all that was needed to wire up your speakers and the interconnects that came in the box was all you needed.
Bookshelf speakers were just that, on the shelf, not on dedicated stands out into the room, and filling those stands with lead shot or sand? Come on give me a break, what can that do?
That's as stupid as putting spikes under your standmount speakers, and spending countless hours trying to find the sweet spot,when everyone knows that time should be spent listening to the tunes and the money spent on all that esoteric stuff like wires is just throwing money away.
Yet some of us moved on from that time, and now use dedicated lines, power conditioners, upscale wires and power cords and spend time placing the speakers in the room where they sound the best and tuning the room.
You don't have to do any of this stuff to enjoy the music, in fact to those who are still stuck in the mindset of the 1960's,it should be just about the music,and as long as the music is being played then everything is as it should be and "can not get any better than this".
"Life is good why rock the boat?"
Why throw any more money at this hobby than is necessary to make the music play in my room?
Yes what some of us do must seem like a waste of money on esoteric junk that shouldn't make a difference.
Especially if they've never bought anything that made a difference or heard somebody's system that was better than theirs .
I've seen comments made about how rotten some of the esoteric systems sounded at HiFi shows over the years, and those comments were often made by folks who say their system bought at a garage sale sounds just as good if not better to their ears.
I guess it's experience and exposure to some of that "esoteric"stuff that has made me one of the lunatic fringe who spends big bucks($20.00?)on an upsacale fuse, but I've heard what some of the stuff that can't make a difference does.
Everything makes a difference.
Not everything that makes a difference is for the better.
Some times it's all about trade offs.
A bit more detail for me might mean sterile or edgy to someonelse.
Warmth and smooth may mean wooly and lacking in definition to me.
So depending upon what system you insert a piece of the esoteric, you may come to a different conclusion than mine.
In that case no one can argue with you.
You tried it and it didn't work for you,it wasn't what you expected.But you tried it,you are entitled to an opinion.
Now in my system it might be just my cup of tea.
And so it is with fuses,chunks of wire or fuse bypassing.
It may seem like mumbo jumbo to some,but when you've had 30 plus years of fooling around with this part of the hobby,you get to know what is snake oil and what isn't.
People with Maggies know what fuses can do to the sound of their speakers.
Just look at a stock fuse,and it's impressive that we can hear any difference in speaker wires etc.
Esoteric fuses aren't much more robust, but enough so that you can hear differences between them and the stock ones.
I can easily tell when I used a stranded DIY fuse replacement or one made with solid core wire.
It's similar to the differences using stranded or solid core speaker wire.
Or perhaps there shouldn't be a sonic difference there either?
Some may have never had any experience with anything but good old zip cord,because that's all you need,as someone stated years ago when bragging that their gear worked just fine with nothing fancier than zip cord.And perpetrated as the gospel for decades later by the cable sceptics.
Here's my take.
What works just fine for some, doesn't work as well for others.
Will that be a hot dog or a fillet mignon you're serving with your fries?
It's all meat and potatoes, it's all about the music.
What your take is on hifi sound is not the same as mine.
What demands I make of my system and my expectations of good sound are different than yours.
Most of us never started at the same place and we haven't ended up at the same place over the years.
Our audio history, journey ,is not the same.Maybe similar.
Most of us have had many systems over the years,some may still enjoy the first system they bought.
All I can state to back up any of my claims is that over the years I've heard some stellar systems, and owned a few myself that made it very easy to tell when something made an improvement or not.
If it was an improvement I usually bought it,if not and I could return it I did.
Would I call the stuff that didn't work "snake oil?"
No, because some stuff is just too far out there for me to even consider, but if I could try it at no cost I'm open to just about any of the clocks , pebbles,discs,generators,nano stuff, that's out there.
But when it comes to things like wires, fuses and power products I've done enough experimenting with that stuff to know that it's not if they make a difference, it's all about how much of an improvement that difference is compared to what was in it's place before.
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01-30-14: Pack
OK, I guess you guys think with your audio hearts and thats OK,after all if one thinks its true then in his ears it may be so. By the same thought process, if you think something is not audible, then you won't hear a difference. But if you do a square wave sweep thur a circuit with its well thought out fuse you will see no difference at all. Science is getting better at measuring what our senses can and cannot detect, but it is far from being absolute. Yes, the human mind is still evolving, we do not yet know all that there is to know. We, as a species, are still learning, our science is ever evolving as it tries to better understand the 'human experience'. |
Pack wrote,
"But if you do a square wave sweep thur a circuit with its well thought out fuse you will see no difference at all."
That's not true. You will see a better square wave. I.e., it's a better signal.
Cheers |
Pack, have you done the test with a HiFi Supreme or other esoteric fuse,or are you just relying on the accepted wisdom of those who also haven't tried it?
I don't have any test gear,but it's very easy for my ears to hear differences in tone and texture when I use DIY or esoteric fuses.
In fact my built in test gear can even pick out what brand of fuse I am fooling around with.
No foolin.
Can your test gear do that?
I would be a believer in such gizmos if they were tied into a computer which has been fed a variety of parameters and specific tonalities etc, so that when any sonic traits specific to solid core i.e. or related to AMR sonics, would then be able to distinguish those sonic traits, and sort out what is what.Not just a square wave.
Are all square waves created equally?
Are all such devices calibrated the same?
Is there a univeral standard for such devices and are these devices able to avoid the vagaries and fluctauations of the grid these devices are run on?
Sorry if my ignorance is showing, but I wonder about such stuff,especially when people place all their faith in devices and don't trust their ears.
Until such a device is made available, I'll rely on what I have always relied on.
The same devices that I use to listen to my music as it's being processed by all the crap that it's hidden behind.
My goal has always been to eliminate whatever it is that the music is hiding behind.
It started from the time I tried to put together a system that recreated the feeling of playing live on stage,as I have continued to do now nearly fifty years later.
I've heard some systems that are much closer to it than where mine is, but I am also much closer than I once was.
Esoteric fuses have opened the curtains that were once closed.
They are but one avenue to go down,and for me the price to pay to drive down that road was more than reasonable.
|
Geof,
Unfortunately, whatever the facts may be about fancy fuses, it doesn't make the crap you sell any more credible. But keep on trying, you never know. |
Geof, Did you know that the thickness of your skull has an impact on how you perceive sound ? I don't mean this as a joke,its true. You should have more faith in electrical science , it has brought what might be considered miracles into our lives. But you know being human and a little bit different from each other , when it comes to the things that effect our senses such as musical reproduction , we should allow the choice of a device that sounds the best to us. Look at all the pre-amps,amps,digital gear,etc. we have to choose from . These devices are "Tuned" by there perspective designer based on his idea of what music should sound like. Case in point, the biasing of an amplifier. But getting back to science for a second..............physics does dictate certain truths......these truths have everything to do with the functional ability of a given devise to do what it is supposed to do. That is to say a well produced square wave thru a circuit once achieved is the best electrical possibility. Perhaps if we took a good decongestant an hour before our listening session, there would seem to be more clarity in the high end area ? |
Maybe the "snake oil" isn't that designer fuses don't change (or even improve) the sound, but maybe it has to do with what some are charging for those fuses compared to the relative level of sonic improvement you get compared to using regular fuses.
How close to the sound of a designer fuse can you get by putting a little silver contact paste (Quick Silver Gold) on the ends of a Buss fuse and wrapping it a couple of times with teflon tape for damping? How close does the Acme cryogenically treated Silver Fuse at $12 - $16 come to the pricier models from other companies selling for $50 to $100+? |
Mitch2 wrote,
"Maybe the "snake oil" isn't that designer fuses don't change (or even improve) the sound, but maybe it has to do with what some are charging for those fuses compared to the relative level of sonic improvement you get compared to using regular fuses."
Most Aftermarket fuses are in the price range $24 to $60 with some around $100 or more. Kind of like electron tubes, one ought to weigh the cost vs performance, but how can you make a decision without listening first? That's the problem!
Mitch2 also wrote,
"How close to the sound of a designer fuse can you get by putting a little silver contact paste (Quick Silver Gold) on the ends of a Buss fuse and wrapping it a couple of times with teflon tape for damping?"
Good questions. But one must also ask, "how much better sound can you get by using Quicksilver Gold on the ends of a designer fuse?" And let's not overlook directionality, you can get some improvement in a stock fuse by just determining the correct direction. So, correct direction + damping the fuse + better conductivity with QSG. Seems like a good idea to me.
Mithc2 also wrote,
"How close does the Acme cryogenically treated Silver Fuse at $12 - $16 come to the pricier models from other companies selling for $50 to $100+?"
Difficult to say. There are a number of reasons why comparisons are difficult including time required for break in and the number of candidates for the evaluation. Are you volunteering? There is also the fuse holder to contend with, a silver plated cryo version appears to be a good place to start. |
"but how can you make a decision without listening first? That's the problem! " Reminds me of a famous LEgend. |
"but how can you make a decision without listening first? That's the problem! " Reminds me of a certain LEgend. No snake oil in that one! :^) |
The story of the Pied Piper,who is the High End esoteric charlatans of today I presume?
Here's how I could spin that tale.
You take someone who has demonstrated that they have a sound scientific background and lead all the gullible audio children down the garden path marching to his tune and not their own.
Follow me,trust me, I know all the answers.
Esoteric fuses, power cords,if they all measure the same they should all sound the same.
Don't be afool follow me.
But if it's all about measurements then everything that passes a square wave should sound the same, and so there is no reason for buying an esoteric anything?
Is that not reverse snake oil descrimination?
Are Dueland caps worth their price if they pass a square wave the same as an offshore cheapie?
Surely they must be the kings of snake oil.
Perhaps it's the LEgend of Pandora's box that we should refer to.
You know, you start with an Esoteric fuse and then before you know it you're hooked on Duelands with gold and silver internal wiring.
I wonder a lot.
Like why do some folks in this hobby even bother to listen to their systems if they can't trust their ears?
Do they take out a cd,then check the spec sheets,and knowing that everything is as it should be, put the cd back in it's case and call it a nite?
Can they actually bypass their ears altogether like the chap who can read the record grooves and tell you what the music is?
THis is audio is it not?
So ,how can you make a decision without listening first?
How can a square wave do anything more than show you that the item is functioning correctly?
All functioning fuses would pass a square wave.
All functiong capas would pass a square wave,the Dueland included.
Would you be able to see any difference between a Dueland and a cheap Nichicon?
Again, forgive me if my ignorance is showing,I am a subjectivist,and empiricist.
I have to base my conclusions on what I can hear using my ears and by comparing one against the other in purely subjective terms.
If my ears are fooling me, then I can accept that,because I am fooling myself everytime I sit down to listen to reproduced music.
I know it's not perfect,I've heard real,this is not it.
Yet the measurements are very likely perfect.
The Pied Pipers who would lead you to believe that perfect measurements are all that matters, like perfect sound forever, are fooling themselves that what they have is perfection because it measures so.
No need to listen first, the decision has already been made. |
Everything is an individual choice. One should attempt to be as educated as possible, but make their own decisions.
Some sources are more reputable than others. I'll leave it at that. |
The next thing you know, there will be discussion of on which day of the week or hour of the day provides the best electrons & if they sounded great today, can you have the same ones back for tomorrow. Or maybe someone will start selling canned electrons like the canned air in the movie Spaceballs. |
I think it is pretty logical that since no one can listen to everything, one has to make some choices to decide what to listen to or not. Even which fancy fuse one might try. |
Of course one has to decide on whatever choices one makes.
You decide whether anything is worth trying,and hopefully you try before you buy.
But if you've already made up your mind and refuse to try something just because you know there can be no difference,that doesn't prove anything to you or anyonelse if there is a difference or not.
It's just an opinion based on the opinions of others with the same mindset as yours.
So who is following the Pied Piper?
We are all followers,if indeed we are in this hobby for anything more than to kick back and enjoy the tunes.
Which I feel is the more recent take on this hobby.
It wasn't this way when I started out, and old habits are hard to change.
Those habits ,like critically evaluating one component to the next(without measurements or DBLT)were all I had back then as now.
I am quite certain that a chunk of wire compared to a stock fuse will pass a square wave,as will an esoteric fuse.
But can those measurements show the differences between each?
If the square wave for the solid chunk of wire is better than for the others, and I find that it also sounds better, then my ears must be good measuring devices.
If there is no measurable differences between any of them, and I hear differences,am I better than the machine?
There's so much more to this than just assembling a system according to how well they spec out.
Simple things like a fuse,do have an effect,I've heard it, and way before there were esoteric fuses, I bypassed the stock ones, not because they measured better,but just because it sounded better.
Had I not done so,I would have never guessed that it would.
If I had a measuring device and it measured the same as the fuse then I would have stayed with the fuse and the protection it provided.
One doesn't have to listen to everything,most of the time substitutes to the esoteric stuff are right at your fingertips.
You don't have to spend a penny.
You have a choice to just listen to the tunes as they are and not try anything to improve the sound.
Or you can try and improve that sound.
You have the choice.
But the more times you decide to try something,and it works, the more you are prone to try other things.
If you are not prone to experimenting with the simple things, and instead feel that it makes more sense to buy something new than improve what you have, then you will always follow that path.
I wonder about the negative comments some have made when a tweak doesn't meet their expectataions.
Were those expectations too high in the first place?
Were they expecting to transform a sows ear into a silk purse?
Was there something in their system that wasn't functioning properly that was obscurring any differences,a blockage of somesort? A lack of attention to some small trivial detail,something that shouldn't make a difference?
It's all about the details and small stuff, because when you add them all up,they do make a difference to the end sound.
One thing that is indisputable is that in my experience, everytime I improved my sound, my enjoyment of the music was increased.
And as far as I know,there isn't a device that can measure how much more I am enjoying it. |
Lacee,
Determining the happy path to enjoying the music is what its all about.
No two are likely to be quite the same.
Some might involve fuses. But many may not.
I've agreed on several occasions that no two anything sound exactly the same and acknowledged that a fuse change could make a difference.
But I am not going to insist that it always will, even if were to try one and find that to be the case.
There are many other things I know will have a big effect that I would likley consider first. But that's just my case.
ALways best to keep an open mind... |
Blowing both "upgraded"fuses sets off some red flags for me.
First,were they the correct ratings for your amp?
Sounds silly, but I confess to mixing up the spots where the 5 amp fuse was with the .5 fuse.Of course the .5 amp fuses blew.
That's been the only time I've ever had a fuse, upgraded or stock ever blow in over 35 years of using them in hifi and as a professional musician.
For you to have two "upgraded'fuses blow can't be just random bad luck.
Something is wrong somewhere.
If they were upgraded fuses, send them back for a refund or replacement,it's worth a try, but again two malfunctioning fuses may pose a problem.
I would appreciate, as others,what was the manufacturer of the "upgraded"fuses?
Since you haven't had any of the stock fuses blow, that suggests the fuses were not up to spec. |
GVasale,have you never read about how the sound is so much better in the wee hours of the morning when there is less demand on the grid?
If not, then here is a very simple and cost free experiment for you to try.
If you are allowed,stay up and listen around 2 AM to your music.
You may not hear any difference, some folks don't due to a number or reasons like bad hearing, low resoulution systems,inability to discerne differences at any time of the day with anything "new" introduced into the system, or you don't trust your ears.
On the other hand if the system sounds fuller, you feel less stressed and the music is more smooth,you may then discover that the power that drives your system does influence how it sounds.
And from this you might even conclude that anything, even a simple fuse,that is in the signal path can also have an effect on your sound.
The next step if you hear the system sound better late at nite is to try an upgraded or treated stock fuse late at nite and listen if it makes more of an improvement.
If so, then it will be doing it's job during the normal times you listen,but may not be as audible.
I have never stated that an upgraded fuse is 100% guaranteed to improve everything it's plugged into.
I can only state that it's never failed the test for me.
Why some folks are so reluctant to try is beyond my comprehension,some fuses offer money back trials, so there's nothing to lose.
Or lend them to another audio friend who has the same voltage requirements, let him have a listen and evaluate them.
It would be nice to pass some of these fuses around,but they are fragile, and if someone got one that was damaged in use or transit and it took something out, that wouldn't do anyone any good.
So let's not go there.
There was a time on another forum when these fuses first came out that I offered to buy and send an IsoClean free of charge to a sceptic and post his truthful findings.
He declined the offer. |
Lacee wrote,
"There was a time on another forum when these fuses first came out that I offered to buy and send an IsoClean free of charge to a sceptic and post his truthful findings. He declined the offer."
Geez, you'd think it was Invasion of the Body Snatchers or something.
Shirley Temple to J. Edgar Hoover: "I don't go all the way."
J. Edgar Hoover: "I don't go all the way, either." |
I'm allowed to stay up as long as I see fit :)
My present fuses are well broken in...having been used & never replaced since they were new, pre 1973. I know you didn't ask about that. Surley, can't be of high quality having lasted that long...
My old Marantz gear probably doesn't have the sensitivity to be able to show any significant difference when played on my Altec speakers.
I am amused quite frequently by the hysteria one can infer from the intense subltlties often in discussion on this board, but I do come here to learn as well.
Once in a while, no, more than that, there are really things that aren't in the twilight zone of this hobby.
One thread on this board simply said "it's about the music."
Is eqipment the end or the means to the music?
My hearing hasn't been tested in probably 4 years or less, and my report always says it is normal for a person of my age (64) and I hope because I'm 64 doesn't mean that I'm no longer capable of enjoying this hobby.
I don't have any insecurities, an axe to grind, nor lust for an I-phone.
There are just some things to me which truly seem like snake oil & this is one more of them.
The next thing will be "audiophile" service entry cable, "audiophile" main & branch breakers, etc., etc. I alreacy know there are "audiophile" wall outlets & interconnecting cables & connectors.
"Audiophile" q-tips & "audiophile" earwax removal aids.
Can anyone tell me where the weakest link is?
Charles Rodrigues was on to something.
Who sells "audiophile" fuses?
Without malice, I appreciate your reply...I hope you appreciate my skepticizm.
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My present fuses are well broken in...having been used & never replaced since they were new, pre 1973. That raises an interesting question, if OS fuses sound so good maybe we should be looking for NOS fuses :>) Also, Geoff says There is also the fuse holder to contend with, a silver plated cryo version appears to be a good place to start. That has been one of my issues with not only fuses but also connectors on equipment, etc. What is the weakest link? I believe Acme and Furutech both offer upgraded fuse holders if you want to try them. Actually, I have listened to several of the upgraded fuses including two HiFi Tuning types and the Furutech fuse. I used to have the standard HiFi Tuning fuses in all my gear. I honestly can't say I heard a big difference, especially compared to changing out electronics, or even cables. I have no problem with folks hearing a difference and spending their money to attain that difference, but for me the stock fuses seem to do just fine. |
If I were using old Marantz gear and Altec speakers; I wouldn't worry about fuses either. |
I would delete my last post, but- the site is not offering the option. |
Mitch2 wrote,
"That has been one of my issues with not only fuses but also connectors on equipment, etc. What is the weakest link? I believe Acme and Furutech both offer upgraded fuse holders if you want to try them. Actually, I have listened to several of the upgraded fuses including two HiFi Tuning types and the Furutech fuse. I used to have the standard HiFi Tuning fuses in all my gear. I honestly can't say I heard a big difference, especially compared to changing out electronics, or even cables. I have no problem with folks hearing a difference and spending their money to attain that difference, but for me the stock fuses seem to do just fine."
Of course stock fuses and ordinary connectors and ordinary cables and ordinary fuse holders do just fine. But we're not really addressing ordinary fuses and ordinary connectors and ordinary sound. We're talking about getting better sound. Unless you are willing to accept the good possibility that all wire is directional - fuses, interconnects, speaker wire, etc., even the wire in capacitors and transformers, the capabilities of a given system will be masked or constrained by all the wire, fuses, and cables that are not in the correct direction. Bit even stock fuses and stock interconnects can be reversed, no? |
Hmmm...In my case, I really don't know what speakers with 100db sensitivity might be able to "mask." I readily agree they don't perform flat out to 20khz for sure. They will sound different than others, I agree. But no two speakers sound alike for the most part. Shouldn't better speakers tend to sound the same, if 100% accuracy is the goal? |
You may hear similarities in speakers, a house sound from Magnepan, and while all the Maggies strive for 100% accuracy,you can still hear that they all perform differently.
Striving for 100% by measurements, doesn't mean the same sound.
You can get many different types of speakers to measure 100% accuracy or at least close to it,but some folks would find that too Sterile,Harsh and not warm and cuddly.
The same as you can measure capacitors and make sure that they all meet the same specs, but why then do they not all sound the same?
Why does a 300B tube sound different than an el35, el84, or 845?
They all meet spec measusrements, yet each one can change the sound of the amp they are in, and each have certain tonal characteristics that differentiate them.
All the "fusers" are stating is that all fuses do not sound the same either.
Whether your gear would benefit or not, I can't say.
What I can say is that attention to the small stuff pays off in the end.
It's cumulative.
If I were you,before I bought any fuses or any new wires or changed anything in your system, I would address the power going into your set up.
Specifically, dedicated power lines.
If you start to clean things up at the panel and work towards your speakers,you'll start to hear differences and make sense of all this voodoo.
It's like cleaning your eyeglasses.
You never realized how dirty they were until you cleaned them.
All the while you thought you could see good enough before you cleaned them.
Same as audio. |
Lacee,
That's a reasonable perspective to have for these kinds of things I would say. :^) |
Thanks...however, in the years I've had my ears in this, the "experts" always said that the goal was to have the sound that was as close to undistinguishable as possible to the original. Sterile, harsh, not warm & cuddly suggest to me they have'nt achieved the goal.
On a slightly different drift, I my memory is correct, when AR did their live vs. "memorex" auditions, they were pretty successful in this endeavor & at one time held a massive share of the loudspeaker market.
When they did their testing they actually buried their boxes
level to the surface of an outdoor field & did their measurements. The object was that there would be no room influence. Alternatively, very few others used anechoic chambers. These two things make me wonder about all the small baffles where the sound is not being projected away from the speaker & if there might be some "hocus-pocus" with some speakers which "can't be placed against a wall."
Not likely I'm ever going to replace what I own, though, but
I really do enjoy the music & enjoy the reading here & at other sites.
Eyeglasses...bad comparason. I can't stand either dirty glasses or polycarbonate lenses. I don't care if glass is heavier, I can see the difference. Give me glass. |
IMO, to say that an upgraded fuse or power cord can't improve SQ because it "defies the laws of physics", or some other science, implies physicists and other scientists have learned 100% of everything there is to possibly know...which is pretty naive or arrogant if you ask me. |
Neither arrogant nor presumptuous, but why then aren't such outstanding cables/fuses part of the OEM kit? Surley the ultimate amplifier maker would want to scrimp here & there so some other company could pick up what should be his domain? I'm certainly skeptical. I don't know which is easier...to prove they are an improvement or to prove they're not. |
Dragon1952 wrote,
"IMO, to say that an upgraded fuse or power cord can't improve SQ because it "defies the laws of physics", or some other science, implies physicists and other scientists have learned 100% of everything there is to possibly know...which is pretty naive or arrogant if you ask me."
That's tellin' 'em, Dragon! |
Inasmuch as those same AR speakers would be bested by most entry level sub $500.00 speakers of today, I am not sure folks would be as fooled as they were back in the old days.
That's a little like saying those same folks who viewed a 1950's TV wouldn't find much difference in a 4HD or whatever they call the latest in television technology.
I can say that my Aqos HD blows away my Marantz RPG, which back in the day was at the top of it's game.
Audio has moved on, and I admit that some of the old stuff is still good even today.
My old 1974 Acoustat montor X's are testament to that.
Except for the fact that they have had a few thousand dollars worth of upgraded parts.
The upgraded parts are the reason the Acoustats sound as good as they do.I know, before I had them upgraded, I knew how they used to sound back in the 70s.
But all the rest of the stuff I plug into the chain is also better than it was in the 70's.
I've put a lot of effort into getting the best electrical connection as I can to my gear,which means dedicated lines, upgraded connectors and even fuses.
All the stuuf that others will say can make no difference, has for me and in every other system where the owner has done similar improvemnts.
In fact listening to the before and after effects of some simple revisions to the power delivery to my friends system took me down the same road and I am very happy I did follow along.
My problem is that I don't have finances to pursue it to the level that he has.
And he is still experimenting with different power cords and their effect on his DCS dac.
So when does it all end?
It doesn't have to end,who says it's supposed to?
It can begin with a simple fuse, and end there I suppose, but what's the fun in that? |
Expensive aftermarket power cords are seldom offered as part of the deal when purchasing a quality product simply because it comes down to a matter of taste and how one's system is already "voiced".
If you have a systen that tends to be warm or romantic as most tube systems are, you may want more of that or less of that and so you look for a power cord or product that gives you what YOU want.
This is why most gear comes with power cords that cost next to nothing that do the job,but don't really give you the performance that the component is capable of.
Hey, you or I have to do the homework and put in some effort to chhose what's right to our ears.
Some folks are quite content with what comes in the box, others are not.
I have access to some high end gear in another persons system and even gear priced in the $100,000.00 per component don't come with much more than throw away cables.
Needless to say the throw aways are thrown away until the right match , and then the full majesty of the pricey stuff shines thru.
I've heard it and as I said, that's how I was converted to switch my audio purchases from endless gear swaps to investing in things that really matter and improve what I have.And will improve what I purchase in the future ,or on to another round of searching for the right recipe.
The casual listener won't understand any of this stuff,be he a novice or a lover of the old tried and true system he has loved since day one back in the 70's.
But my old 70's Acoustats never sounded as good as they do now since I replaced the RCA and IEC inputs with the best Furutech has to offer,And yes I use HiFI Supremes(4 in total) in these amps also.
Before the changes, the sound was fine, most folks would have not gone any further.
I did, because I experienced what such simple mods using better updated parts can do from lessons learned in my friend's set up.
This is stuff that is voodoo to a lot of people,you are not alone Gvsale, I have a few audio friends like you, who just can't be bothered to try stuff that will improve their sound.In fact one is reluctant to even try a better power cord on his amp, because if he likes it,and can't afford it, he won't ever enjoy his current system again.
And I'm not belittling folks like that.
Everyone has their own take on what level they are willing to take their system to and I'm aware of all the associated
constraints that are involved when one has a family and the more pressing monetary demands of such.
Whether a manufacturer includes designer fuses or power cords doesn't diminish his efforts to bulid the best he can.
But neither do they state that their gear must only use a specific and supplied interconnect or speaker wire, although Naim and Spectral are two who used to share such thinking.
But times and attitudes change,some manufacturers now design their own power conditioners when once upon a time they frowned on them.
Naim now has gone for a more user friendly type of connection.
If some company supplied and I paid extra for a designer power cord that didn't match my sound, then I would be upset about this and feel ripped off.
People like to have the opportunity to pick and chose the sound they want, whether that is different from the designers intention or not, it's a fact of life, that no two people really like all the same things and sound is a very personal thing.
The more exposure I had to a variety of very good systems tended to alter some of the feelings I had about "how great my set up is".
You learn there are many different voicings .
It doesn't matter which one is correct, because none of them are, it's all an illusion and no one has arrived at the perfect cookbook for the perfect sounding 100% accurate system.
Even if you recreated all the same gear as what was used in the mastering studio, you would only approximate the sound in your home and only for that one particular piece of music from that studio at that time.Your listening room would sound different than the recording sound room with all it's differnt dimensions and room treatemnt.
Everythingelse will be different,so one size will not fit all.
One power cord will not fit all, nor will a fuse or anythingelse.
The only piece of gear that is immune to most of the voodoo would be a wind up RCA turntable with cactus stylus and horn.
No power cord, no power conditioning, no dedicated lines or fancy connectors, no interconnects,no speaker wires,no fuses.
Nothing much to argue about.
It was a simpler time, and for the music lovers of that era, state of the art and as good as it can ever get.
Then things changed.
For better or worse I'll let you decide.
I know where I stand. |
For now, what does one need to do in order to take advantage of such a marvelous power cord when all (my assumption) amplifiers don't have detachable power cords?
This means you have to "tear" into the chassis & start replacing the leads up to the fuse holder? Then what happens...if on the other side of the fuse holder the type of wire to the the transformer turns out to be "substandard." Is the next order of the day to throw out that transformer & have a custom built one made to replace the OEM? If there was a chance that the unit came with a detachable cord like computers use, what would happen if that socket was "found" to be "substandard." What would be next? I'd like to know what gage of internal wire is used to build all these suprelatively performing electronics VS the "also ran" units. |
For one that is accustomed to working on electronic gear; installing an IEC socket, and upgrading the internal wiring, is no big deal. I've performed the job on a number of ARC preamps, and a few brands of older tubed and SS power amps. The differences in performance were consistently dramatic & positive, per the owners(myself included). That's with an upgraded PC as well(of course). Most high-end pieces(old or new) already utilize high quality transformers. |
Absolutely correct Rodman,a lot of the old transformers were quite special,and some aren't made anymore so finding replacements is hard to do.
As Rodmann stated just about anyone can change a captive power cord in a component.
Usually the hardest part is to file out the opening and fastening the IEC to the cabinet.I've resorted to contact sealant in some cases, and never had an IEC that was attached like this ever fall out after repeated plugging and unplugging.
But if you have a vintage piece of gear and you would like to keep it that way for resale purposes, then do not alter anything and enjoy the sound and looks as they are.
But for some of us, it's more about improving the sound of that component.
A decent sound when it was first made with as decent components as cost constraints would allow in those days.
It was big bucks back in the day when some of the old macs with captive cords were made, and people seem to forget that a $600.00 amp back in 64 would cost $5000.00 of todays dollars.So while it seems like the gear from the good old days was cheap, it's all relative.
Look what a gallon of gas cost back then.
But this is the joy of doing upgrades to that old stuff or to even not so old stuff.
A fuse replacement requires no special tools or skill sets.
And can cost nothing if you are foolish enough to bypass them as I did before I settled for the HiFi Supremes.
Power cord swaps are easy to do.
You should be able to hear improvemnts or at the least a difference, when you replace the molded rubber ends of a throw away power cord with better upgraded ones from Wattgate, Oyaide, Furutech etc.
Then use those same upgraded ends and attach them to some upgraded wire from the aforementioned companies and you can DIY a pretty decent step up in sound quality.
Gvsale you seem to feel that it's just too overwhelming to do any of these things, and perhaps you aren't cut out for it , so I suggest you quit worrying about it.
The sky's the limit when it comes to modding gear and you can replace everything inside a component and rewire it with silver,gold platinum wire if you wish.
It all makes a difference, and it's just up to you to decide how much you want to spend and how far you want to go.
I've known some folks who "know the math" and completely redesign the gear for better results.
I am not in that league.
And not all who make the stuff we enjoy are either.
But a fuse upgrade is so simple,it's an audio upgrade for dummies like me. |
