Hi-Fi Fuses - SNAKE OIL? - or something in it?
I have an unfortunate(cramped) home listening environment, that requires my equipment to be arranged in a cabinet/rack, one component above another(shelved). I'm using sheets of TI Shield under and/or above every component, to block emissions. I've also surrounded my power supplies, when feasible. I bought mine from Michael Percy Audio, who then supplied 12 X 24 and 12 X 48 inch sheets. |
To reduce the toxic effects of magnetic fields on all wiring, electrical elements, etc. all transformers - especially big honking toroidal transformers and transformers the size of apartment buildings - should be entirely covered top, bottom and all around with at least two layers of mu metal, each layer separated by a narrow gap. Fuses should obviously also be protected by little mu metal houses. One of the big overlooked are those little innocuous looking ribbon cables that pop up everywhere in electronics these days,they are very vulnerable to both RFI and magnetic fields. |
Faraday cages are somewhat difficult to fully implement & can be unsightly, However, I once had a customer which because of lack of space needed to put one component of top of another & I used some aluminum foil to reduce hum. Many solid state electronic devices are totaly enclosed in metal or have metal screened openings for ventilation. Not quite as necessary for analog as for digital devices unless you live in a metro area with either a radio station or some large computer installation close by. Digital devices tend to radiate elcetronic noise as opposed to analog unless you're talking tv. I don't even notice too much noise from the oscillators in am radio. |
This has turned into a lively conversation, everybody is thinking. Here is an suggestion regarding sound : If you isolate your power amp ,your pre-amp and your CD player with electromagnetic shielding ( find it on the web , its cheap! ) If you do this ,you will be amazed, nothing short of total sonic improvement will be had...........pure science boys ! |
Thanks for the response Gvasale,as I mentioned,some things are easier to mod than others, and what we have to accept is never the ultimate. This could be gear related room related, power related and most importantly cash related. We do what we do and "irregardless" or what some may think, we do reap the rewards of going the extra mile. Those who never venture into these areas will never know how good they can make their systems sound, but then of course to their ears,what they have is the best, and everything not purchased at goodwill is a waste of money. I have old Acoustat X electrostatic full range speakers with their matching output transformerless tube servo amps. The speakers are directly wired to the amps, no need for speaker wires. The amps are each powered on separate 20 amp dedicated lines from the panel on 10 guage romex and terminated in Furutech 15 amp rhodium f48 ends into matching Furutech rhodium IEC in the amps.The RCA in the amps were modded to Furutech top level inputs and the connectors of the interconnects are all CF 102R.The fuses are AMR or HiFi tuning Supremes-the less costly mods I've made. They are placed properly in my room which is a dedicated listening room 30 x 22x8 and I have ASC room tuning devices. I can very easily hear differences in fuses,and despite my supefluous language and lack of spelling skills,I have somehow managed to get a very realistic sound. But it took time and effort and a few dollars to get there. Now I can't measure the difference in sound after the upgrades,but I can hear it. Nowhere near the sound that I had before I did the upgrades. The fuses are a miniscule but important link in the chain, and those unfamiliar with how important the chain is from the panel to the speakers know what I am talking about. Those who don't get it, or have not chalked up enough experience with decent gear,would say things like " a fuse is not in the signal path". My friend, everything from the panel to the speaker is in the "signal path". It's all in how you interpret my bad englishe. |
Mr R: Spoken(typed) as a true Litho-cephal. Perhaps it escapes you; virtually everything, as related to electricity, is referred to as, "theory." That would be because nothing has been actually observed on the quantum level, as yet. NOTHING, regarding Electrical Theory, is yet set in stone(except, perhaps, your head). |
Lacee wrote: "So irregardless of what you think audio is all about,it means somethingelse to others." Surely, Lacee, you know that "irregardless" is not a word? How can anyone place any value on your proclamations when you obviously don't even know basic English? And another point - how much effort, time, and money have you spent improving your speaker/room interaction? Like most others involved in this crazy hobby, I'm willing to bet that you haven't done all you could to better that aspect of your system. Improving that will yield sound quality that is order of magnitudes greater than what you are supposedly achieving with your fuse and power cord changes. Until you have properly setup the speakers and the room, all of your other efforts are for naught... -RW- |
Lacee wrote: "And from this you might even conclude that anything, even a simple fuse,that is in the signal path can also have an effect on your sound." Lacee, the fuse is NOT in the signal path. It simply allows the juice to flow to the equipments' power supplies - no more and no less. Expensive hi-fi fuses are a prime example of audiophile snake oil. You guys crack me up... -RW- |
Snake oil, plain and simple. And, unless your power cord cannot handle the amperage required, spending uber bux on a PC is a fool's game. Think about it, why is it that NO hi-end mfgr. I'm aware of includes these magic beans (fuses and PCs) with their gear? If these things *really* improved the sound, they would be installed at the factory. This is a prime example of audiophilia nervosa trumping common sense and basic electrical physics... -RW- |
Lacee: Thanks for the continuing discussion. The 7T back panel has no room for such a power cable change as "like a computer." I could drill out the opening where the stock power cord enters, but enlarge it to what size? One with a 20 amp capacity? or 30?...therefore the question. The power amplifiers are somewhat compact & also have no room based on layout. They have a compact inner structure with horizonatal & vertical aspects to their assembly. I could put new electrolytics in there, but the cost of them is huge. Something like $300.00 each from what a quick web search indicated, and I'm not in a position of spend $2400.00 on the eight capacitors. If you would like, I sure there are photos of the 7T & 16 on the internet...you might get a better idea of my point of view. WRT, could any improvements be made? I suppose so, but to me my first watt or first few watts are very pleasing to me. As I mentioned before, at what are normal(for me) listening levels, power consumption is very low, total power consumption in the order of 150 watts or less and a voltage across 8 ohms is usually less than 2 volts. Additionally, there is no possibility that I could ever experiment say, switching between SETs (would need 4)because the current setup is also biamplified. One would need an extensive, expensive switching setup for a task like that. One could never otherwise accurately AB test. While I hear people rave about SET apms I have not experienced one yet. I suspect the experience might not make it to my bucket list. But for me the question still if the monumental cost which you say you have expended would be beneficial to me. That is way out of my price range. Thanks for your input. BTW, years ago I did hear what was probably the "best" speaker of its day which were KLH 9s. Right where I worked, 2 pairs not 1 pair. They were pretty impressive. Then there were the Dayton Wright gas filled electrostatics which were also impressive. Neither would be suitable for SET use as I understand. These were in a shop (retail) setting, not in a well plotted out room. |
Gvsale,is your gear so perfect that it cannot be improved? You fear your "stuff would suffer greatly from such changes". You are 100% certain of that? You are throwing a lot of stuff out there such as "how much more overcapacity might one need for something to show up". That may make sense to you, but you are missing the point about upgrades. It's not about how much bigger,it's about how much better. I used an upgraded fuse in a DecWare Zen 2 watt amp that cost 1/6 the price of the amp. I plugged a Shunyata Annaconda power cord into the amp,the power cord was almost 4 times the cost of the amp. Neither upgrade morphed the amp into a Krell with a 1000watts,but, Mr.Deckert and others will tell you that it's how good the first watt sounds that matters most, not how many. So gear that can handle 1100watts /9 amps using a 1/8 amp fuse means moot to me. I'm just concerned about how good I can make those all important first few watts sound. So irregardless of what you think audio is all about,it means somethingelse to others. In my experience, the amp just performed better with the fuse and power cord upgrade. Those two watts were cleaner, more robust and would lead you to believe they gave you a few more watts than the two I started out with. Of course that wasn't what was happening. What was happening was that those important first few watts were given a bit less distortion, and because the electricity was cleaned up, or made to flow a bit more freely, the sound also was able to bloom. More of what makes an SET low watt amp sound so pure and good,just became more apparant than before. Subjective,yes, but repeatable results none the less. Switching things back to normal, or stock, was a step back in information detail, clarity,and there was a loss of body. Put the power cord and fuse back in and the little DecWare sprang back to life, able to reveal just how good this little wonder is. But the same results are there when I use upgraded power cords and fuses in my cd player,and speakers, and phono stage. That spare Annaconda is now used to power up my $60.00 TerDak power supply! And yes way overkill, but it makes my Lightspeed Attenuator sound so much better than the wallwart. Remember, it was a spare, I certainly don't think anyone needs a power cord of this price to make the TeraDak sing, but it hasn't hurt it's performance or made the gear "suffer" because of it. So a pretty decent amp for the money can sound even better with upgraded fuse and power cord.The amp doesn't have to be 1100watts, it can be a two watt amp. The power cord was a spare from when I ran mono blocks, I wouldn't suggest that anyone with a DecWare amp needs an expensive power cord or fuse to make it sound good. But it is also good enough to let you hear the improvements such stuff can make. If there was no difference in sound I could have concluded two things. The first would be that which you might conclude, that the amp was so good it didn't need any help. The second conclusion would be one that I would make, the amp was of such poor design and so distorted that nothing could make it sound any better. I have personally never owned any piece of audio gear that was so good or so bad that it's sound couldn't be improved with an upgraded part or two. That goes for vintage and new tube gear, solid state, and any speakers that were fuse protected. It was easy to hear how anything with a power cord or a fuse was hindered by the quality of the fuse and power cord. I hate to keep rehashing the fuse issue, but it was Peter Aczel from the Audio Critic of the late 70's early 80's who brought this to my attention way back when. Nothing has changed,except that we now have some alternatives to using stock, sound degrading fuses, if we choose to. Until this happened I was bypassing them,enjoying better sound, but was skating on thin ice. Thankfully that's no longer necessary. |
Lacee: Not all designs lend themselves to that kind of modification. From power cords to internal wiring. I still think its a stretch that a fuse, now as simple as it is could be such an object of desire, so to speak. At some time, I'll just let that go. If the gear priced in the statosphere (today's reality) has been built with a cost is no object way, it still seems kind of odd that someone might still find shortcomings (non "audiophile" fuses). No one has mentioned if any products such as that actually have gold cryo treated fuses, fuse holders etc. Aren't many or most of these "mods" driven by the aftermarket? Certainly, my particular stuff would suffer greatly from such changes. But that's neither here nor there...If, for example the power cord on my 7T can handle 1100 watts, that is 9 amps, & the tested load as I use it, averages 1.5 amps or less, how much more overcapacity might one need for something to show up? It is also fused @ 1/8 amp. & comsumes 9 watts. And, let's not for purpose of those questions, consider audio performance as subjectively as some do here. |
Absolutely correct Rodman,a lot of the old transformers were quite special,and some aren't made anymore so finding replacements is hard to do. As Rodmann stated just about anyone can change a captive power cord in a component. Usually the hardest part is to file out the opening and fastening the IEC to the cabinet.I've resorted to contact sealant in some cases, and never had an IEC that was attached like this ever fall out after repeated plugging and unplugging. But if you have a vintage piece of gear and you would like to keep it that way for resale purposes, then do not alter anything and enjoy the sound and looks as they are. But for some of us, it's more about improving the sound of that component. A decent sound when it was first made with as decent components as cost constraints would allow in those days. It was big bucks back in the day when some of the old macs with captive cords were made, and people seem to forget that a $600.00 amp back in 64 would cost $5000.00 of todays dollars.So while it seems like the gear from the good old days was cheap, it's all relative. Look what a gallon of gas cost back then. But this is the joy of doing upgrades to that old stuff or to even not so old stuff. A fuse replacement requires no special tools or skill sets. And can cost nothing if you are foolish enough to bypass them as I did before I settled for the HiFi Supremes. Power cord swaps are easy to do. You should be able to hear improvemnts or at the least a difference, when you replace the molded rubber ends of a throw away power cord with better upgraded ones from Wattgate, Oyaide, Furutech etc. Then use those same upgraded ends and attach them to some upgraded wire from the aforementioned companies and you can DIY a pretty decent step up in sound quality. Gvsale you seem to feel that it's just too overwhelming to do any of these things, and perhaps you aren't cut out for it , so I suggest you quit worrying about it. The sky's the limit when it comes to modding gear and you can replace everything inside a component and rewire it with silver,gold platinum wire if you wish. It all makes a difference, and it's just up to you to decide how much you want to spend and how far you want to go. I've known some folks who "know the math" and completely redesign the gear for better results. I am not in that league. And not all who make the stuff we enjoy are either. But a fuse upgrade is so simple,it's an audio upgrade for dummies like me. |
For one that is accustomed to working on electronic gear; installing an IEC socket, and upgrading the internal wiring, is no big deal. I've performed the job on a number of ARC preamps, and a few brands of older tubed and SS power amps. The differences in performance were consistently dramatic & positive, per the owners(myself included). That's with an upgraded PC as well(of course). Most high-end pieces(old or new) already utilize high quality transformers. |
For now, what does one need to do in order to take advantage of such a marvelous power cord when all (my assumption) amplifiers don't have detachable power cords? This means you have to "tear" into the chassis & start replacing the leads up to the fuse holder? Then what happens...if on the other side of the fuse holder the type of wire to the the transformer turns out to be "substandard." Is the next order of the day to throw out that transformer & have a custom built one made to replace the OEM? If there was a chance that the unit came with a detachable cord like computers use, what would happen if that socket was "found" to be "substandard." What would be next? I'd like to know what gage of internal wire is used to build all these suprelatively performing electronics VS the "also ran" units. |
Expensive aftermarket power cords are seldom offered as part of the deal when purchasing a quality product simply because it comes down to a matter of taste and how one's system is already "voiced". If you have a systen that tends to be warm or romantic as most tube systems are, you may want more of that or less of that and so you look for a power cord or product that gives you what YOU want. This is why most gear comes with power cords that cost next to nothing that do the job,but don't really give you the performance that the component is capable of. Hey, you or I have to do the homework and put in some effort to chhose what's right to our ears. Some folks are quite content with what comes in the box, others are not. I have access to some high end gear in another persons system and even gear priced in the $100,000.00 per component don't come with much more than throw away cables. Needless to say the throw aways are thrown away until the right match , and then the full majesty of the pricey stuff shines thru. I've heard it and as I said, that's how I was converted to switch my audio purchases from endless gear swaps to investing in things that really matter and improve what I have.And will improve what I purchase in the future ,or on to another round of searching for the right recipe. The casual listener won't understand any of this stuff,be he a novice or a lover of the old tried and true system he has loved since day one back in the 70's. But my old 70's Acoustats never sounded as good as they do now since I replaced the RCA and IEC inputs with the best Furutech has to offer,And yes I use HiFI Supremes(4 in total) in these amps also. Before the changes, the sound was fine, most folks would have not gone any further. I did, because I experienced what such simple mods using better updated parts can do from lessons learned in my friend's set up. This is stuff that is voodoo to a lot of people,you are not alone Gvsale, I have a few audio friends like you, who just can't be bothered to try stuff that will improve their sound.In fact one is reluctant to even try a better power cord on his amp, because if he likes it,and can't afford it, he won't ever enjoy his current system again. And I'm not belittling folks like that. Everyone has their own take on what level they are willing to take their system to and I'm aware of all the associated constraints that are involved when one has a family and the more pressing monetary demands of such. Whether a manufacturer includes designer fuses or power cords doesn't diminish his efforts to bulid the best he can. But neither do they state that their gear must only use a specific and supplied interconnect or speaker wire, although Naim and Spectral are two who used to share such thinking. But times and attitudes change,some manufacturers now design their own power conditioners when once upon a time they frowned on them. Naim now has gone for a more user friendly type of connection. If some company supplied and I paid extra for a designer power cord that didn't match my sound, then I would be upset about this and feel ripped off. People like to have the opportunity to pick and chose the sound they want, whether that is different from the designers intention or not, it's a fact of life, that no two people really like all the same things and sound is a very personal thing. The more exposure I had to a variety of very good systems tended to alter some of the feelings I had about "how great my set up is". You learn there are many different voicings . It doesn't matter which one is correct, because none of them are, it's all an illusion and no one has arrived at the perfect cookbook for the perfect sounding 100% accurate system. Even if you recreated all the same gear as what was used in the mastering studio, you would only approximate the sound in your home and only for that one particular piece of music from that studio at that time.Your listening room would sound different than the recording sound room with all it's differnt dimensions and room treatemnt. Everythingelse will be different,so one size will not fit all. One power cord will not fit all, nor will a fuse or anythingelse. The only piece of gear that is immune to most of the voodoo would be a wind up RCA turntable with cactus stylus and horn. No power cord, no power conditioning, no dedicated lines or fancy connectors, no interconnects,no speaker wires,no fuses. Nothing much to argue about. It was a simpler time, and for the music lovers of that era, state of the art and as good as it can ever get. Then things changed. For better or worse I'll let you decide. I know where I stand. |
Inasmuch as those same AR speakers would be bested by most entry level sub $500.00 speakers of today, I am not sure folks would be as fooled as they were back in the old days. That's a little like saying those same folks who viewed a 1950's TV wouldn't find much difference in a 4HD or whatever they call the latest in television technology. I can say that my Aqos HD blows away my Marantz RPG, which back in the day was at the top of it's game. Audio has moved on, and I admit that some of the old stuff is still good even today. My old 1974 Acoustat montor X's are testament to that. Except for the fact that they have had a few thousand dollars worth of upgraded parts. The upgraded parts are the reason the Acoustats sound as good as they do.I know, before I had them upgraded, I knew how they used to sound back in the 70s. But all the rest of the stuff I plug into the chain is also better than it was in the 70's. I've put a lot of effort into getting the best electrical connection as I can to my gear,which means dedicated lines, upgraded connectors and even fuses. All the stuuf that others will say can make no difference, has for me and in every other system where the owner has done similar improvemnts. In fact listening to the before and after effects of some simple revisions to the power delivery to my friends system took me down the same road and I am very happy I did follow along. My problem is that I don't have finances to pursue it to the level that he has. And he is still experimenting with different power cords and their effect on his DCS dac. So when does it all end? It doesn't have to end,who says it's supposed to? It can begin with a simple fuse, and end there I suppose, but what's the fun in that? |
Dragon1952 wrote, "IMO, to say that an upgraded fuse or power cord can't improve SQ because it "defies the laws of physics", or some other science, implies physicists and other scientists have learned 100% of everything there is to possibly know...which is pretty naive or arrogant if you ask me." That's tellin' 'em, Dragon! |
Neither arrogant nor presumptuous, but why then aren't such outstanding cables/fuses part of the OEM kit? Surley the ultimate amplifier maker would want to scrimp here & there so some other company could pick up what should be his domain? I'm certainly skeptical. I don't know which is easier...to prove they are an improvement or to prove they're not. |
Thanks...however, in the years I've had my ears in this, the "experts" always said that the goal was to have the sound that was as close to undistinguishable as possible to the original. Sterile, harsh, not warm & cuddly suggest to me they have'nt achieved the goal. On a slightly different drift, I my memory is correct, when AR did their live vs. "memorex" auditions, they were pretty successful in this endeavor & at one time held a massive share of the loudspeaker market. When they did their testing they actually buried their boxes level to the surface of an outdoor field & did their measurements. The object was that there would be no room influence. Alternatively, very few others used anechoic chambers. These two things make me wonder about all the small baffles where the sound is not being projected away from the speaker & if there might be some "hocus-pocus" with some speakers which "can't be placed against a wall." Not likely I'm ever going to replace what I own, though, but I really do enjoy the music & enjoy the reading here & at other sites. Eyeglasses...bad comparason. I can't stand either dirty glasses or polycarbonate lenses. I don't care if glass is heavier, I can see the difference. Give me glass. |
You may hear similarities in speakers, a house sound from Magnepan, and while all the Maggies strive for 100% accuracy,you can still hear that they all perform differently. Striving for 100% by measurements, doesn't mean the same sound. You can get many different types of speakers to measure 100% accuracy or at least close to it,but some folks would find that too Sterile,Harsh and not warm and cuddly. The same as you can measure capacitors and make sure that they all meet the same specs, but why then do they not all sound the same? Why does a 300B tube sound different than an el35, el84, or 845? They all meet spec measusrements, yet each one can change the sound of the amp they are in, and each have certain tonal characteristics that differentiate them. All the "fusers" are stating is that all fuses do not sound the same either. Whether your gear would benefit or not, I can't say. What I can say is that attention to the small stuff pays off in the end. It's cumulative. If I were you,before I bought any fuses or any new wires or changed anything in your system, I would address the power going into your set up. Specifically, dedicated power lines. If you start to clean things up at the panel and work towards your speakers,you'll start to hear differences and make sense of all this voodoo. It's like cleaning your eyeglasses. You never realized how dirty they were until you cleaned them. All the while you thought you could see good enough before you cleaned them. Same as audio. |
Hmmm...In my case, I really don't know what speakers with 100db sensitivity might be able to "mask." I readily agree they don't perform flat out to 20khz for sure. They will sound different than others, I agree. But no two speakers sound alike for the most part. Shouldn't better speakers tend to sound the same, if 100% accuracy is the goal? |
Mitch2 wrote, "That has been one of my issues with not only fuses but also connectors on equipment, etc. What is the weakest link? I believe Acme and Furutech both offer upgraded fuse holders if you want to try them. Actually, I have listened to several of the upgraded fuses including two HiFi Tuning types and the Furutech fuse. I used to have the standard HiFi Tuning fuses in all my gear. I honestly can't say I heard a big difference, especially compared to changing out electronics, or even cables. I have no problem with folks hearing a difference and spending their money to attain that difference, but for me the stock fuses seem to do just fine." Of course stock fuses and ordinary connectors and ordinary cables and ordinary fuse holders do just fine. But we're not really addressing ordinary fuses and ordinary connectors and ordinary sound. We're talking about getting better sound. Unless you are willing to accept the good possibility that all wire is directional - fuses, interconnects, speaker wire, etc., even the wire in capacitors and transformers, the capabilities of a given system will be masked or constrained by all the wire, fuses, and cables that are not in the correct direction. Bit even stock fuses and stock interconnects can be reversed, no? |
My present fuses are well broken in...having been used & never replaced since they were new, pre 1973.That raises an interesting question, if OS fuses sound so good maybe we should be looking for NOS fuses :>) Also, Geoff says There is also the fuse holder to contend with, a silver plated cryo version appears to be a good place to start.That has been one of my issues with not only fuses but also connectors on equipment, etc. What is the weakest link? I believe Acme and Furutech both offer upgraded fuse holders if you want to try them. Actually, I have listened to several of the upgraded fuses including two HiFi Tuning types and the Furutech fuse. I used to have the standard HiFi Tuning fuses in all my gear. I honestly can't say I heard a big difference, especially compared to changing out electronics, or even cables. I have no problem with folks hearing a difference and spending their money to attain that difference, but for me the stock fuses seem to do just fine. |
I'm allowed to stay up as long as I see fit :) My present fuses are well broken in...having been used & never replaced since they were new, pre 1973. I know you didn't ask about that. Surley, can't be of high quality having lasted that long... My old Marantz gear probably doesn't have the sensitivity to be able to show any significant difference when played on my Altec speakers. I am amused quite frequently by the hysteria one can infer from the intense subltlties often in discussion on this board, but I do come here to learn as well. Once in a while, no, more than that, there are really things that aren't in the twilight zone of this hobby. One thread on this board simply said "it's about the music." Is eqipment the end or the means to the music? My hearing hasn't been tested in probably 4 years or less, and my report always says it is normal for a person of my age (64) and I hope because I'm 64 doesn't mean that I'm no longer capable of enjoying this hobby. I don't have any insecurities, an axe to grind, nor lust for an I-phone. There are just some things to me which truly seem like snake oil & this is one more of them. The next thing will be "audiophile" service entry cable, "audiophile" main & branch breakers, etc., etc. I alreacy know there are "audiophile" wall outlets & interconnecting cables & connectors. "Audiophile" q-tips & "audiophile" earwax removal aids. Can anyone tell me where the weakest link is? Charles Rodrigues was on to something. Who sells "audiophile" fuses? Without malice, I appreciate your reply...I hope you appreciate my skepticizm. |
Lacee wrote, "There was a time on another forum when these fuses first came out that I offered to buy and send an IsoClean free of charge to a sceptic and post his truthful findings. He declined the offer." Geez, you'd think it was Invasion of the Body Snatchers or something. Shirley Temple to J. Edgar Hoover: "I don't go all the way." J. Edgar Hoover: "I don't go all the way, either." |
GVasale,have you never read about how the sound is so much better in the wee hours of the morning when there is less demand on the grid? If not, then here is a very simple and cost free experiment for you to try. If you are allowed,stay up and listen around 2 AM to your music. You may not hear any difference, some folks don't due to a number or reasons like bad hearing, low resoulution systems,inability to discerne differences at any time of the day with anything "new" introduced into the system, or you don't trust your ears. On the other hand if the system sounds fuller, you feel less stressed and the music is more smooth,you may then discover that the power that drives your system does influence how it sounds. And from this you might even conclude that anything, even a simple fuse,that is in the signal path can also have an effect on your sound. The next step if you hear the system sound better late at nite is to try an upgraded or treated stock fuse late at nite and listen if it makes more of an improvement. If so, then it will be doing it's job during the normal times you listen,but may not be as audible. I have never stated that an upgraded fuse is 100% guaranteed to improve everything it's plugged into. I can only state that it's never failed the test for me. Why some folks are so reluctant to try is beyond my comprehension,some fuses offer money back trials, so there's nothing to lose. Or lend them to another audio friend who has the same voltage requirements, let him have a listen and evaluate them. It would be nice to pass some of these fuses around,but they are fragile, and if someone got one that was damaged in use or transit and it took something out, that wouldn't do anyone any good. So let's not go there. There was a time on another forum when these fuses first came out that I offered to buy and send an IsoClean free of charge to a sceptic and post his truthful findings. He declined the offer. |
Blowing both "upgraded"fuses sets off some red flags for me. First,were they the correct ratings for your amp? Sounds silly, but I confess to mixing up the spots where the 5 amp fuse was with the .5 fuse.Of course the .5 amp fuses blew. That's been the only time I've ever had a fuse, upgraded or stock ever blow in over 35 years of using them in hifi and as a professional musician. For you to have two "upgraded'fuses blow can't be just random bad luck. Something is wrong somewhere. If they were upgraded fuses, send them back for a refund or replacement,it's worth a try, but again two malfunctioning fuses may pose a problem. I would appreciate, as others,what was the manufacturer of the "upgraded"fuses? Since you haven't had any of the stock fuses blow, that suggests the fuses were not up to spec. |
Lacee, Determining the happy path to enjoying the music is what its all about. No two are likely to be quite the same. Some might involve fuses. But many may not. I've agreed on several occasions that no two anything sound exactly the same and acknowledged that a fuse change could make a difference. But I am not going to insist that it always will, even if were to try one and find that to be the case. There are many other things I know will have a big effect that I would likley consider first. But that's just my case. ALways best to keep an open mind... |
Of course one has to decide on whatever choices one makes. You decide whether anything is worth trying,and hopefully you try before you buy. But if you've already made up your mind and refuse to try something just because you know there can be no difference,that doesn't prove anything to you or anyonelse if there is a difference or not. It's just an opinion based on the opinions of others with the same mindset as yours. So who is following the Pied Piper? We are all followers,if indeed we are in this hobby for anything more than to kick back and enjoy the tunes. Which I feel is the more recent take on this hobby. It wasn't this way when I started out, and old habits are hard to change. Those habits ,like critically evaluating one component to the next(without measurements or DBLT)were all I had back then as now. I am quite certain that a chunk of wire compared to a stock fuse will pass a square wave,as will an esoteric fuse. But can those measurements show the differences between each? If the square wave for the solid chunk of wire is better than for the others, and I find that it also sounds better, then my ears must be good measuring devices. If there is no measurable differences between any of them, and I hear differences,am I better than the machine? There's so much more to this than just assembling a system according to how well they spec out. Simple things like a fuse,do have an effect,I've heard it, and way before there were esoteric fuses, I bypassed the stock ones, not because they measured better,but just because it sounded better. Had I not done so,I would have never guessed that it would. If I had a measuring device and it measured the same as the fuse then I would have stayed with the fuse and the protection it provided. One doesn't have to listen to everything,most of the time substitutes to the esoteric stuff are right at your fingertips. You don't have to spend a penny. You have a choice to just listen to the tunes as they are and not try anything to improve the sound. Or you can try and improve that sound. You have the choice. But the more times you decide to try something,and it works, the more you are prone to try other things. If you are not prone to experimenting with the simple things, and instead feel that it makes more sense to buy something new than improve what you have, then you will always follow that path. I wonder about the negative comments some have made when a tweak doesn't meet their expectataions. Were those expectations too high in the first place? Were they expecting to transform a sows ear into a silk purse? Was there something in their system that wasn't functioning properly that was obscurring any differences,a blockage of somesort? A lack of attention to some small trivial detail,something that shouldn't make a difference? It's all about the details and small stuff, because when you add them all up,they do make a difference to the end sound. One thing that is indisputable is that in my experience, everytime I improved my sound, my enjoyment of the music was increased. And as far as I know,there isn't a device that can measure how much more I am enjoying it. |
The story of the Pied Piper,who is the High End esoteric charlatans of today I presume? Here's how I could spin that tale. You take someone who has demonstrated that they have a sound scientific background and lead all the gullible audio children down the garden path marching to his tune and not their own. Follow me,trust me, I know all the answers. Esoteric fuses, power cords,if they all measure the same they should all sound the same. Don't be afool follow me. But if it's all about measurements then everything that passes a square wave should sound the same, and so there is no reason for buying an esoteric anything? Is that not reverse snake oil descrimination? Are Dueland caps worth their price if they pass a square wave the same as an offshore cheapie? Surely they must be the kings of snake oil. Perhaps it's the LEgend of Pandora's box that we should refer to. You know, you start with an Esoteric fuse and then before you know it you're hooked on Duelands with gold and silver internal wiring. I wonder a lot. Like why do some folks in this hobby even bother to listen to their systems if they can't trust their ears? Do they take out a cd,then check the spec sheets,and knowing that everything is as it should be, put the cd back in it's case and call it a nite? Can they actually bypass their ears altogether like the chap who can read the record grooves and tell you what the music is? THis is audio is it not? So ,how can you make a decision without listening first? How can a square wave do anything more than show you that the item is functioning correctly? All functioning fuses would pass a square wave. All functiong capas would pass a square wave,the Dueland included. Would you be able to see any difference between a Dueland and a cheap Nichicon? Again, forgive me if my ignorance is showing,I am a subjectivist,and empiricist. I have to base my conclusions on what I can hear using my ears and by comparing one against the other in purely subjective terms. If my ears are fooling me, then I can accept that,because I am fooling myself everytime I sit down to listen to reproduced music. I know it's not perfect,I've heard real,this is not it. Yet the measurements are very likely perfect. The Pied Pipers who would lead you to believe that perfect measurements are all that matters, like perfect sound forever, are fooling themselves that what they have is perfection because it measures so. No need to listen first, the decision has already been made. |
"but how can you make a decision without listening first? That's the problem! " Reminds me of a certain LEgend. No snake oil in that one! :^) |
"but how can you make a decision without listening first? That's the problem! " Reminds me of a famous LEgend. |
Mitch2 wrote, "Maybe the "snake oil" isn't that designer fuses don't change (or even improve) the sound, but maybe it has to do with what some are charging for those fuses compared to the relative level of sonic improvement you get compared to using regular fuses." Most Aftermarket fuses are in the price range $24 to $60 with some around $100 or more. Kind of like electron tubes, one ought to weigh the cost vs performance, but how can you make a decision without listening first? That's the problem! Mitch2 also wrote, "How close to the sound of a designer fuse can you get by putting a little silver contact paste (Quick Silver Gold) on the ends of a Buss fuse and wrapping it a couple of times with teflon tape for damping?" Good questions. But one must also ask, "how much better sound can you get by using Quicksilver Gold on the ends of a designer fuse?" And let's not overlook directionality, you can get some improvement in a stock fuse by just determining the correct direction. So, correct direction + damping the fuse + better conductivity with QSG. Seems like a good idea to me. Mithc2 also wrote, "How close does the Acme cryogenically treated Silver Fuse at $12 - $16 come to the pricier models from other companies selling for $50 to $100+?" Difficult to say. There are a number of reasons why comparisons are difficult including time required for break in and the number of candidates for the evaluation. Are you volunteering? There is also the fuse holder to contend with, a silver plated cryo version appears to be a good place to start. |
Maybe the "snake oil" isn't that designer fuses don't change (or even improve) the sound, but maybe it has to do with what some are charging for those fuses compared to the relative level of sonic improvement you get compared to using regular fuses. How close to the sound of a designer fuse can you get by putting a little silver contact paste (Quick Silver Gold) on the ends of a Buss fuse and wrapping it a couple of times with teflon tape for damping? How close does the Acme cryogenically treated Silver Fuse at $12 - $16 come to the pricier models from other companies selling for $50 to $100+? |
