There's a lot of chatter about the benefits of those high prices gold plated fuses with silver conductor etc. etc. all over the web and the consensus ranges from FANTASTIC!!! to much more subtle observations.
It makes sense to me, epseically in light of spending lots of $$$ on good power cables, that having a skinny piece of aluminum conductor in a glass tube (i.e. a cheap fuse), in the power loop would be detrimental to the performance of the components.
I decided to revamp my DIY power supply I'd built for the Cambridge Audio 640p phono stage and DACmagic in order to test this out - and since it's a DIY project there is no UL Certification to void.
First, I bypassed the fuse link completely to confirm there would be an improvement and give me the best benchmark to compare against - YEP - BIG DIFFERENCE - much more this, that and the other :-)
So then I started looking for hi-fi fuses - WOW!!! - talk about pricey.
Two fuses for the power supply was going to cost $120+ AND I thought I'd probably have to buy a better quality fuse block to make the most of those fuses.
Then a moment of enlightenment - most power supplies and conditioners are protected by pushbutton breakers and not fuses.
I found breakers of the required current rating and installed them into the power supply. I imediately noticed that there was no deteriation in fidelity when compared to the same unit with the fuse link bypassed - GREAT!.
On reflection, the fuses I had in place were rated at 3 amps - so they use a pretty thin fuse wire in them. If I had used a fuse of a higher rating, i.e. it uses a thicker conductor, then I believe that there would be less of a difference between the fused and bypassed implementations
SO - do the expensive fuses work?
Well the empirical evidence out there would suggest they do - I do know the cheap fuses are not good!
I know bypassing them does improve the sound - a lot in my case - BUT THAT'S NOT SAFE FOR ONGOING USE
I know breakers work as good as bypassing the fuse - BUT MESSING WITH A POWER SUPPLY VOIDS UL CERTIFICATION - NOT GOOD! - FYI a couple of licensed technicians I know WILL NOT change the design of a power supply at all.
I believe the amount of benefit is related to the fuse rating - but don't go replacing 3 amp fuses with a 20 amp fuse - that's not safe either.
Whilst looking for fuses I discovered AMR Gold fuses priced at $20/fuse.
Now that's definately more affordable than most others at 3-4 times their price.
If you have had experience with quality fuses please share - especially if they are "modestly priced" i.e. $20-$30 per fuse. And please provide a source :-)
Also, can anypne confirm that Slow blow fuses are better than regular?
And Remember - IF YOU AIN'T LICENCED - GET A TECHNICIAN!
I am left to wonder what brand of upgraded fuses did you have the problems with?
Blowing fuses could mean several things- a problem with the amp(unlikely as the original stock fuses didn't blow) or that the wrong value of fuse was used or the fuses were defective.
I once blew a couple of expensive HiFi Supremes when I mistook the .5 amp for the 5 amp.
In my case, the sound was worse when I went back to the old stock fuses,my spares. All was good again with the replaced upgraded fuses,of the right value in the right location.
The amps are Acoustat servo tube amps which take a .5 amp and a 5 amp fuse in each amp.
If you suspect the fuses were sub standard, send them back,maybe the company will replace them.
At least let us know what brand they were. Maybe others have had similar bad experiences with them.
I've used AMR, Iso Clean,and HiFi Supreme,no problems with the fuses,just my bad eyesight.
At least I can say that the fuses did the job they were intended to do, they will blow if used in the wrong application. Some folks have expressed concern that they may be too robust and not "fail" when called upon to self destruct and save the gear.
My problem was that I was new to my Acoustat amps and the stock .5amp fuse looked to be the more robust fuse, with a thicker filiment and spring like make up, the other fuse was a simple thin thread for a filament.
There were no markings on the amp to designate what value of fuse on either of the two fuse holders.
So what I thought was the 5 amp fuse( the thick spring stock fuse) was actually the .5amp fuse.
Of course the 5 amp fuses were OK,and no damage was done when they were in the .5 amp fuse holders. But the .5 just went pop,and no damage to the amps , just the wallet and my pride.
I think Elizabeth may be right in saying that aftermarket fuses are amped-up. That would explain the sound. At any rate, I'm not risking it in my precious kit.
I can hear the improvemnt of an upgraded fuse even with the original fuse holders.
An upgraded fuse holder and an upgraded fuse would be perfect, but it's not necessary.You can hear the results even with an ol, but cleaned up, vintage fuse holder.
Aren't vintage things supposed to be better anyways!
Next stop, Re-wiring all components and speakers, not to mention transformers and inductors with wire that is marked for proper direction. When does it ever stop? Answer at 11.
Everything regarding power is incremental. Dedicated lines, conditioning, outlets, cords, IECs, fuses, rectifiers, filter caps, regulators, etc. The benefits of upgrading my fuses were quite obvious, though no fuse holders were changed. When I can find fuse holders, that offer a significant step up in conductivity/construction(metallurgy) and don't require any radical changes to my equipment to install; I'll consider them. Why would I deprive myself of the added pleasure, derived from the HI-FI Tuning fuses, while waiting for holders that may or may not ever be available? I may as well remove everything else that I have upgraded, regarding power(according to that philosophy). BUT(like you said), You each his own!
Geoffkait, your question is an excellent one and I have asked myself this question many times. Apparently, my answer is as follows:
When I can close my eyes and believe I'm sitting row 8 center Severance Hall, it will stop. When I run out of money or go deaf, it will stop. When I lose my love for music, it will stop. Until then, I will keep running prudent experiments to try to get just a little closer to Severance Hall from my living room.
I have found that spending a reasonable amount of money in order to test the validity of my own preconceived notions has afforded some rather nice, and in some cases substantial, gains. Electrical engineering is not an area where metaphysical arguments should have a place. Unfortunately, there are things going on with this whole business of supplying AC and turning it into music that are beyond my understanding, though I am a pretty bright guy. There are things that the human ear can hear that can't be correlated with things that I can measure.
I am a scientist by training, but I have found that there are times when a deliberate exercise in anti-rationalism can be the fastest way "out of the box." This is not the same as a headlong plunge into irrational spending.
On the other hand, we need to be realistic. If a manufacturer, say, Cary, Pass, CJ, whoever-- could turn a $5000 amp into a $15000 amp using $300 worth of tweaks, I'm just guessing they would do so. Some of this tweaking and spending is just part of the fun(or frustration) of this hobby. It's unfortunate when people allow their natural skepticism to turn into vicious attacks or rude affronts of other's intelligence or integrity. A bit too much of that here and in Audio Asylum lately for my taste.
Brownsfan brings up an interesting point. Tweaking, or refining maybe does more to dial in a particular system in it's own setting than offer a generalized improvement across the board for everyone. That's probably why we see different responses from people for a given tweak. Wires are still pretty much a mystery for me but other tweaks related to vibration control I can pretty much wrap my head around- that goes for electronic components too like capacitors, resistors and switches. I guess it comes down to capacitance and micro resistance of wires. Different variations are needed to best suit a particular system. In the end, we become very intiment with our gear and grow sensitve to the slightest changes. The one tweak that I still marvel at: Using a bulk tape eraser on my CDs. It makes a difference but I have no idea how or why. Sure, it probably removes static charge or something; but why would that affect a laser?
Mr Mental- My entire system(CDP, phono stage, preamp, monoblock mains, woofer amp) takes 12 fuses. That's only $720.00(minus the 12% Frequent Flyer Discount I get from The Cable Company). Less than I paid for my last power cord, less than a third the cost of my last interconnect and the expense was spread out over 12 months(did everything a stage at a time and analyzed the differences). I hardly consider that expensive, when weighed against the improvements to the system's presentation. Every piece of gear that I own, is heavily modded and the simple/easy tweak of these fuses, is icing on the(overall) cake. Why would I by spares, when I haven't blown a fuse in years, can get a replacement in two days and listen with a stocker while waiting? Happy listening!
Well, with respect to the bulk tape eraser, I can imagine that demagnetizing the CD can have an effect on the laser since the laser beam is electromagnetic in nature. Charge, mass and spin. I think the issue is magnetism as opposed to static electrical charge, another problem, which can be death with using anti-static spray or an ionizer like the one Mapleshade used to sell or various Tourmaline based devices, among other things.
Light isn't really affected by magnetism; otherwise magnets would look blurry or distorted. Gravity and a change in medium, ie. air to water or to vacuum are the only things we know of today that affect light's properties. And I have heard the magnetism theory before too which would have to apply only to any metallic inks used in the labels on CDs since the reflective material used inside the CD is typically Aluminum, except for some special Gold sputtered CDs. The difference that I hear after demagnetizing a CD is like the difference between a dirty stylus and a clean one on a record. The music becomes clearer and eliminates what sounds like mis-tracking on a record. I bought the bulk tape eraser in the mid 90s just for kicks after reading an article about it. I figured that I would take it back the next day for a refund. I never expected to hear a difference.
Several years ago I experimented with a bulk tape eraser and compared the final product to that of a CD spun on a Bedini Ultra Clarifier. (Both sides spun and treated.)
I preferred the final sound product of the Clarifier over the bulk tape eraser.
Here is the simple explaination of how a Bedini Clarifier works.
But, not how demagnetizing a CD, which has no materials capable of producing a magnetic field TTBOMK would add any value and if it did, why it would not be more common.
I used to use a tape head demagnetizing device on cassette decks periodically. Seemed to make sense it would have some effect there and results good or bad could be clearly be heard no doubt. Such devices for that purpose were common and relatively inexpensive.
On the bright side, I like how my CDs sound already so I will not loose any sleep pondering how to fix what isn't broken to start with.
If I'm missing something, it won't be the first time. :^)
I actually rip all my CDs to music server these days. I never play a CD directly, so there is no music making occurring anywhere near the actual CD. Lots of bad things can happen in theory reading an optical disc in real time to make music.
I also use Wifi networked players with external DAC to make the music. No wired connection to a music server computer. This provides very good noise isolation between source computer/music server and hifi system.
VEry straightforward, functional, and always sounds great. Not that there are not potential snafus with any approach, but this one that works well, its easy to understand why, and really leaves little to want sound quality-wise.
"I actually rip all my CDs to music server these days. I never play a CD directly, so there is no music making occurring anywhere near the actual CD. Lots of bad things can happen in theory reading an optical disc in real time to make music."
It happens during the ripping process, too, I'm sorry to report. You know, what with the laser reading the data on the CD and everything, just like reading the disc in real time.
You wrote,
"I'll take that as a compliment." OK, let's say it was a compliment.
"It happens during the ripping process, too, I'm sorry to report. You know, what with the laser reading the data on the CD and everything, just like reading the disc in real time."
There is more to making music/sound than just reading the data off the disc. SO the two are not the same even though that step alone may or may not be in each case.
I also have been using a Hammond bulk tape eraser, which was given to me by a friend who changed his studio to all digital before he passed away.
I have yet to find anyone who can't hear an improvemnt after a disc has been demagnetized.
I'll ask a friend to bring over a fave cd.
We'll listen to a single cut. Then I demag the cd, pop it back in and we listen again.
Just like a parlour magic trick, my friends start asking what else I may have done to the settings on my system, like did I add more volume?
They hear the difference but can't wrap their heads around the fact that all I did was to zap both sides of the cd for 20 seconds each.
If you can find them,and they are working up to speed, the old pro bulk erasers work their magic everytime, on lp's and dvds. I never play any discs that haven't been zapped, and I can tell when someone brings over a cd that sounds diffuse and jangly that this is a fine candidate for a demag.
I don't care about the how or why,only that it works.
Now about the "expense" of upgraded fuses, I think they keep you from spending a great deal more money on endless upgrades and swapping of components.
Fine tuning a system seems to be out of fashion in the new disposable age. Don't like or have grown too acquainted with a component, then sell it and buy somethingelse,use stock fuses and then sell it,never knowing how good both pieces could really sound because both were compromised by that cheap stock fuse.
I think losing and spending thousands of dollars(as I have)looking for the next big audio junkie fix is an endless journey into frustration, and ultimately leads to burnout. Then you sell off all the good stuff and settle for mediocre stuff, convincing yourself that it should only be about the music afterall.
The sad story is that if you always ran stock fuses, wires etc, and never really got into the Tweakiness" of this hobby, you've never heard how good that frustrating system really was.
The blame lies not with the system, the snake oil or the evil High End and all their minions.
The reason for someone's displeasure ,frustration with this hobby rests with them.
But then it's always the easy way out to blame someone or something for one's misfortunes.
For what it's worth, I've found that what you get out of this hobby is only as good as the effort you put into it.
Radio shack bulk tape erasers should be easy and inexpensive to find on eBay for twenty bucks or so, at least the last time I looked. There is a bit of a trick to using bulk tape erasers on CDs and thst is not to hold it too close and only swirl it a couple times, oh, and before releasing the ON button hold the tape eraser well away from the CD.
I have replaced the stock IEC on my acoustat servo amps with Rhodium Furtechs so that it's furtech from the dedicated line thru to the amps.Opened her up and soldered new wire to the IEC, also added Furutech rhodiun RCA,and 3 per speaker Furtech speaker connectors, not a stranger to simple mods.
I would certainly like to improve the fuse sockets, which have been sanded and cleaned and given a coating of ESST(on all connections)not sure if Furtech makes them, but if they do I will add them to the mix.
But I ask the question-why wait for upgraded fuse holders, when a simple $20.00 investment in an AMR fuse will get you most of the way there even with that stock fuse holder?
For me, I'll enjoy the improved sound the fuse gives me over the stock one now,, knowing that I would only enjoy it more with an improved upgraded fuse holder.
Let's look at your simple question through the eyes of someone who's cup isn't so full that there's no more room for any open-minded thoughts
I won't spend $20.00 to improve my system by simply replacing a fuse. No, never, because if I can't spend three days opening up and installing a better fuse socket to take full advantage of the $20.00 fuse, it's not worth doing!
Man, I'm glad that you and I are closed-minded, short-sighted and unintentionally depriving ourselves of the full enjoyment that we should be waiting for.
Mapman,
The answer is 'No'. It's not like turning up the volume, it's like just cleaning up the AC a little more and lowering the noise floor from less AC junk.
I have a RS bulk tape eraser. I hold the cd in one hand and the bulk tape eraser in the other. I turn on the coil and move it to the cd from the side, not from the top. I hold the coil on the label side of the cd for about 10 seconds and slide the cd around slightly since the coil is just a bit smaller than the diameter of the cd. Then I move the coil slowly away sideways from the cd and after it is about a foot away I turn off the coil.
""What is it again about the sound that the Furutech fuses improve? WOuld turning up the volume some otherwise achieve similar results?"
I thought that was a good question.
Geoff mocking it makes me think so even more."
Well, of course it makes you think so even more. That's the Backfire Effect in action. I kinda suspect in order to get to the bottom of a lot of these things like fuses it is most helpful to actually try them. Anyone can sit on the sidelines in the comfort of his easy chair and wonder.
" I kinda suspect in order to get to the bottom of a lot of these things like fuses it is most helpful to actually try them. Anyone can sit on the sidelines in the comfort of his easy chair and wonder."
Spoken like a true charlatan.
I will need a fuse someday most likely, but not now. Fact is its way down on my list of things to try before my time is up, even on the list of audio only things. But it does rank above any products I have seen to-date from Machina Dynamica. Just being honest.
Mapman,one thing I am certain of is that you probably will never even try an upgraded fuse.The other thing is that I don't use Furutech fuses,I use AMR, Iso Clean and HiFi Supreme. I do very much like and use Furutech GTX-R recptacles, their rhodium IEC, and RCA,and speaker connectors and their power cable receptacles and bulk power cord wire. All many times more costly than an AMR fuse.
Are they the reason why the upgraded fuses make such a profound improvement in the sound of my system?
Answer- yes.
Do you need to use all these costly aftermarket devices to gain the benefit of an upgraded fuse?
Answer-no.
The only way for anyone to know the answer to the post-HiFi fuses-Snake oil? or something in it? is to try one for yourself, in your system.
Until someone does, they can only speculate one way or the other.
I do side with the folks who base their opinions on something that they have actually used in their system,rather than with those who speculate the merits or lack of from the sidelines.
I am almost tempted to send you one to try,but the postage and hassels of sending things from one country to another would cost as much as an AMR fuse.
Again, I urge anyone who feels that fuses have no sonic impact on what they are used in to dig up an old copy of the Audio Critic ,where almost 40 years ago, Peter Aczel came to the conclusion that fuses degrade the sound of what they are used in.
I lived on the edge for years, bypassing the fuses in my gear forsaking safety for better sound because of what Aczel said. I actually replaced the fuses with DIY fuse replacements of solid or stranded copper.He was right, the gear just sounded more clear and defined.
When the upgraded fuses came out, I knew that if they were closer to sounding like no fuses then this was for me.Providing protection was the icing on the cake.
After years of arguing the fuse and defending those who also feel the same as I,an upgraded fuse is still better than a stock one and , though not as uncoloured as no fuse, is my prefered way to go about the business of getting closer to what's on the recording.
An upgraded fuse is no different in this instance than an upgraded speaker wire, interconnect power cord, rack, room tuning device, power supply upgrade, resistor capacitor upgrade or tube swap for some exotic NOS.
Those things cost a whole lot more money, and for the most part trade one colouration for another.One day it's vanilla, next it's chocolate coated.
I have full sets of Iso Cleans, and HiFi supremes that sit in their boxes as spares, along with my stock fuses. At $20.00 a fuse the AMR is a steal,and an improvemnt in any fuse holder you put it in.
Just because I am not rushing out to buy any new fuses at this time doesn't mean others should not. I have my priorities, others have theirs. That's what makes the world go round.
I do not automatically go out and try everything that might make a difference. Who has time for that?
Once my stuff sounds the way I want it to, I tend to not change a darn thing until there is a reason I can hear. Nothing lasts forever, so eventually something always seems to come up. Maybe a new fuse will be called for at some point. When it does, I will get one or two or however many needed. WHat kind will I get? Dunno. Time will tell. Meanwhile, if the fuses are making someones listening better, then by all means I am happy for that person.
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