Herron VTPH-2A Phono Preamp....anyone familiar?
@lewm, mosfet? I owned the AS2100 (model just next down from the 3000), excellent integrated, very good sounding for the money, nice dynamics and power, has an MM stage, which is good but nothing special. It was a current unit in 2017 Lew, now they have 3100 and 2200 IIRC, same concept but new power supply and new circuit. I was using the 2100 with the Budgie from Parks Audio and it was better IMO than the integrated MM on the Yamaha |
Far be it from me to knock the Herron phono stage. My earlier remarks ca 2019 were made in jest at the outset of this longlived thread. I am sure the Herron is superb. But two guys who own the Herron and also own or have owned two other very fine phono stages that cost a great deal more than the Herron, the VAC Renaissance SE and a special edition of the CAT SL1, have remarked that they at least slightly prefer the higher cost models to the Herron. This is no black mark on the Herron, because those two phono stages are likely to be very exceptional. But that testimony gives me some idea how to think about the Herron, without having ever owned one. I would not dismiss Yamaha electronics out of hand. There was a time when they marketed very advanced solid state gear using a novel transistor, the name of which escapes me right now. I think that was the Yamaha B1 and B2, for the amp and preamp, respectively. Also Yamaha produced the GT2000 turntable along with the L and X versions of same. Like the company that makes Technics products, Yamaha is an industrial giant capable of doing whatever they want. That said, I would like to know more about the A-S3000 integrated. Is it a current product or vintage, for one thing? On the face of it, or until I know more about the A-S3000, that would seem to be the weak link in the OP's system, since the other components are high quality. |
I'm a little late to this but wonder if any of you VTPH 2A owners can answer a question for me. Can I plug cartridges into both MM and MC inputs of my VTPH 2A at the same time and simply switch between them with the MM/MC switch on the back? I suspect @bpoletti will know the answer. As far as the OP's question goes, I own a CAT SL-1 Renaissance and before that owned an original SL-1 for 25 years. During those years I had opportunity to compare with many other other phono stages and consider it to be one of the very best available.. That said the VTPH 2A which I use for additional turntables very closely approaches the CAT. |
Oops, I made a mistake and misread the Yamaha and Yamamoto from my phone for some reason. So you don’t even own Yamamoto :) Now i think it’s you who must read what is Yamamoto A-08s and read the reviews and check the price. I did my search about Yamaha, a company who made cheap receivers for home cinema most of the time. That new product look like an old receivers same style), hope it’s better. I don’t care about reviews, never seen a bad review for anything made today, they are always raving about new product whatever it is. Anyway, we’re off topic here. Tube Phono Stage = More noise Tube amp + tube phono stage = even more noise. |
My amplifier is the Yamaha A-S3000 integrated. I'm not going to add a separate preamp. I don't need additional power so that rules out a power amp. My mono TT uses a high output MC mono cartridge. My stereo TT uses a MM cart. If I ever upgrade to a LOMC and a problem develops, I still have the internal discrete phono stage of the Yamaha. However, adding a separate phono preamp solves another problem. There is only one set of phono inputs on the back of the amp so I have to disconnect and reconnect the other TT every time I go from playing a mono record to a stereo record. How does it all related to the OP question ? Tube phono stage with tube amp will generate more noise than solid state type. I also have Yamamoto, but A-08s. In your situation the Gold Note PH-10 is a phono stage with 2 independent MM/MC input, you can connect two turntables and each one can be MM or MC. Yamaha is junk @vuch |
Exactly, even in the line level pre-amp or power amp. In a phono stage can be more problematic, especially for LOMC cartridges. If you want a very special phono stage for low impedance LOMC then check Current Mode (Current Injection) type of phono stages like 47 Labs Phono Cube or others. My amplifier is the Yamaha A-S3000 integrated. I'm not going to add a separate preamp. I don't need additional power so that rules out a power amp. My mono TT uses a high output MC mono cartridge. My stereo TT uses a MM cart. If I ever upgrade to a LOMC and a problem develops, I still have the internal discrete phono stage of the Yamaha. However, adding a separate phono preamp solves another problem. There is only one set of phono inputs on the back of the amp so I have to disconnect and reconnect the other TT every time I go from playing a mono record to a stereo record. |
If you think your system sounds great, why not just stick with it? Keep in mind that if you go with tubes, you may end up going down the "rabbit hole", spending countless hours and dollars looking to get the lowest noise and highest performing tubes. This is coming from a tube guy. |
If you think your system sounds great, why not just stick with it? Keep in mind that if you go with tubes, you may end up going down the "rabbit hole", spending countless hours and dollars looking to get the lowest noise and highest performing tubes. This is coming from a tube guy. Exactly, even in the line level pre-amp or power amp. In a phono stage can be more problematic, especially for LOMC cartridges. If you want a very special phono stage for low impedance LOMC then check Current Mode (Current Injection) type of phono stages like 47 Labs Phono Cube or others. |
If you think your system sounds great, why not just stick with it? Keep in mind that if you go with tubes, you may end up going down the "rabbit hole", spending countless hours and dollars looking to get the lowest noise and highest performing tubes. This is coming from a tube guy. If you are still "tube curious", see if you can find a decent phono stage" that comes with a trial period. Modwright, Music Direct and Tavish Audio Design all offer trial periods (to get a taste of tubes)...as does PS Audio, but it’s not a tube design. : ) Good luck! |
Can anyone describe what I might be able to expect by adding the Herron VTPH-2A to my system? I'm currently running a Denon DP-62L TT with the straight black tonearm wand, Grace F-9 cart with SoundSmith Nude Ruby OCL stylus, Yamaha A-S3000 integrated amp and Magico A3 speakers. I also set-up a mono TT: Pioneer PL-41A with a Denon DL-102 high output MC mono cart. I've never heard tubes before. I think my system sounds great but I'm wondering if adding a tube phono preamp takes the sonics to another level? I'd love to demo one but that isn't an option Herron offers. Thanks! |
The Herron & Modwright are both great. But I would choose the Herron. One reason IMHO is that the Herron has a FET first stage for MC followed by a tube second stage for the MC (the tubes also act as the only stage for MM). So, you can bypass the FETs when using an MC cart by using a separate SUT into the Herron's tube only MM stage. However, the Modwright has a
tube/JFET hybrid first stage for MC followed by constant current source loading for the second stage. There does not seem to be a way to bypass the JFETs in the Modwright. YMMV. |
Do not mistake me, the ph10 is still an excellent phono and I love its flexibility. However I have moved away from exotic lomc carts tbh and likely just going to,play with various mm and vintage mm carts so do not truly need the gain the ph10 has available. And there is that tube itch which I feel compelled to scratch...... |
Reports from two members who have the matching ps to the ph10 is that it really has not helped out over much. Not in the bass or details department. At least not $850 worth by all accounts. And going back a couple of years I was set on a tube phono, just was not really going to match up well with then present amp. Now I am pretty much wide open on choice, and still have a hankering to try out a tube phono. |
The infinite loading surprised me. 47k Ohm loading on Gold Note for MC cartridges is almost "infinity", did you try that ? I have another phono stage with plug-in load resisteors (the JLTi) and i like 47k Ohm for some MC cartridges. My JLTi was customized by manufacturer, i have 500k Ohm resistor inside, so i can plug 47k Ohm resistor (rca plugs) from the outside just like in Herron. I have no problem with clarity using Gold Note, it is crystal clear phono stage, but i feel the obvious lack of deep bass in Gold Note compared to my upgraded WLM Phono stage which is a kind of body and bass compared to all phono stages i have tried. I tried the Gold Note with headamp and with sut, but the low register is still not as good as my WLM Phonata to my surprise. Maybe Lew is right and i have to look at the output coupling capacitor inside the Gold Note. |
@chakster Is it better in low register? The only weak point of the Gold Note in my system is the bass. But the best bass i have with mosfet phono stage (no tubes). In the same system, the Herron was better in the low register, along with being better all other aspects. I can delineate the instruments but it’s not artificial, it’s more like being in the room with the artist. The infinite loading surprised me. For the Herron, I had 220 and 470ohm plugs made for my cartridge as this is what the Gold Note offered and sounded good when using. I initially tried the plugs with the Herron and it sounded excellent. When I removed the plugs and went infinite load, it elevated the subtleties and clarity. I still think you can’t top the Gold Note up to maybe $2000 price range. But for what Keith offers the VTPH-2A for and his service, the price difference was more than well worth it for me. Here's my system, just FYI: Rega Planar 8 Ortofon Cadenza Prima Luna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated ProAc D30RS (ribbon) Herron VTPH-2A |
Definitely, the output coupling caps can choke out bass if they’re too small. And you probably need more capacitance than you’d think given the usual 1 / (2 * pi * R * C) roll-off frequency calculation. I think my older Rogue Ares could have benefited from larger output caps (they were only 0.47 uF), for example. But plenty of phono stages do use more than ample capacitance for hooking into the typical preamp (50K - 100K input impedance). I think in many cases, rolling different makes/qualities of capacitor will have a bigger sonic impact than just going to a bigger value of same make - output coupling caps are one of the most critical components for "voicing" a tube amp. Also, using a SUT vs. the JFET MC stage will significantly impact the perceived bass response, while having nothing to do with the output caps (SUTs too are a critical component with a lot of sonic variability across makes). I tend to like the thicker, more impactful sound rendered by a good SUT, but this is very cartridge-dependent. |
I urge you guys to read an elementary book on audio electronics. You might thereby learn to understand why a preamp (for one example) exhibits disappointing bass response compared to another. In this case, it might simply be a matter of the value of the output coupling capacitor. If so, the problem can be fixed by installing a different capacitor of higher value. Also one needs to pay attention to the input impedance of the device that the preamplifier is driving. These factors can make all the difference in the world, And they can be fixed without spending thousands of dollars on an entirely new device. Interesting, maybe i will crack it up one day to see what's inside. This italian phono stage only need more bass (imo). |
Lewm In regards to input impedance I most certainly did pay attention which is how I ended up with the Gold Note to begin with as the Herron was NOT going to play nicely with my then present Lyngdorf 2170. However with present Ayre EX8 with input impedance of 1m ohm/ 2m ohm unbalanced/balanced the Herron should be a sweet matchup. As should the Chinook and likely countless others. Not looked into the output coupling capacitor but that would mean changing parts internal which I do not have a huge issue with apart from it potentially hurts future resale value? |
I urge you guys to read an elementary book on audio electronics. You might thereby learn to understand why a preamp (for one example) exhibits disappointing bass response compared to another. In this case, it might simply be a matter of the value of the output coupling capacitor. If so, the problem can be fixed by installing a different capacitor of higher value. Also one needs to pay attention to the input impedance of the device that the preamplifier is driving. These factors can make all the difference in the world, And they can be fixed without spending thousands of dollars on an entirely new device. |
Chakster. I have not actually made the decision to purchase the Herron yet, hence digging up this thread and asking further questions. Still using the Gold Note right now and possible the lower bass is a little lacking but not terribly so in my system. However tubes were and have always been on my radar. Just as an example, I purchased a very simple iFi audio tube buffer which I placed inline between my Nak tape deck and Ayre and it really fleshed out the bones a fair bit. Now sounds flat without it inline. Still chewing it over. |
@uberwaltz It is not about right or wrong and i am not advocate of Gold Note here, in fact you guys promoted it for 2 years. I feel the lack of bass with this phono stage, sadly. Just curious how many phono stages we have to buy. I bought two, but my first one still better in low registed than all of the new phono stages i bought (including gold note) pretending for upgrade. Comparison is the key. After reading audiogon for years i see most people are from the USA and they are always vote for Made in USA products when it comes to the phono stages. I'm looking forward to read your comments about Gold Note vs. Herron |
Chakster I do not call 2 years " gave up so quickly" You may not recall but at that time I was convinced I wanted a Herron or a Chinook back then but thanks to sensible advice right here it was decided that certainly the Herron would not be a good match impedance wise for my then present Lyngdorf 2170. If the Gold Note was the be all and end all of phono stages then everybody would have one and there would be no need or market for anything different/better. Sometimes it is indeed a case of the grass is greener but in this case with so much overwhelming support for the Herron ( and the Chinook) I do not believe it is just smoke and mirrors. The only weak point of the Gold Note in my system is the bass. And there we have it.... " in my system". One cannot expect everybody to get the same results as in your system Chakster. You have some good advice to offer at times on certain subjects but also it appears that when someones decision does not align with yours then they must just be wrong. |
@uberwaltz Just had a very pleasant phone conversation with Keith . Both in agreement that present amp and his phono should be a match made in audio heaven. And his direct sale pricing is VERY fair imho. Just have to sell the Gold Note now..... You gave up so quickly after so many praise for the Gold Note in your posts. Tube phono stage is not for everyone imo (same about tube amps). But in general this is a prime exaple that we like something only until we will find something better. But you must check the Herron in your own system first, before you will sell Gold Note. Looking forward for your reports about it, but not in the first week after purchase :) @jcoehler I sold my Gold Note in favor of the Herron, the VTPH-2A does everything better. Is it better in low register? The only weak point of the Gold Note in my system is the bass. But the best bass i have with mosfet phono stage (no tubes). |
I participated in a "shoot out" with the Herron, Allnic and Manley Chinook. I think there were about 8 or 9 people there. The only thing we changed was the Phono Preamp, and it was an otherwise excellent system. They all sounded great! But, the vote ended up being that more favored the Manley than the others. IMO, the Manley was the smoothest top to bottom, and others seemed to agree. The Herron and Allnic both were excellent as well, but I found them to be a little more forward in the midrange. That's a matter of taste, of course. In the end, I have the Manley, and I'm very happy. I think I could be happy with any of the three... but the Manley is least expensive of the lot. I just didn't see enough improvement with the Herron to justify double the cost. And, I think the Manley is a little easier to configure. |
I had the Herron for a while but preferred my Einstein Turntables Choice MC preamp. I wanted to prefer the herron because it has more flexibility in terms of two inputs. But for an MC cartridge, the Einstein was more articulate. I have heard that the MM stage on the herron is exceptional, but the MC can be bettered with step up transformers |
Did we ever end up with any serious detractors for the Herron? I was close to buying one couple years ago but Keith himself thought it would not be a great match for my then Lyngdorf 2170 integrated and I went with a Goldnote ph10 instead. Well that amp has long gone and I likely have my final amp in the shape of Ayre EX8 and now come back to the Herron question. Love to hear if anybody is actually feeding an Ayre with the Herron. |
I'm afraid I've no knowledge of the H-1201 beyond the plethora of enthusiastic reviews available online. Comparisons will no doubt be available soon, but considering how recently the H-1202 was released I wouldn't expect any just yet. However, given what I know of Mr. Park I doubt he would release a new model unless it had real and tangible improvements. Whether the improvements are sufficiently signifiant to warrant an upgrade is of course another matter. As for derailing the thread: I seriously doubt that any further illumination will be offered here regarding the Herron VTPH-2. Both its sonic excellence and immensely favourable cost/performance ratio are already established facts, whereas more people really ought to be made aware of the Allnic H1201/2 and the fact that the same very much applies to it. |
@agrippa As the previous owner of the Herron VTPH-2 and the current owner of an Allnic H1201, my experience aligns with yours, and I appreciate you bringing a measure of balance to the sometimes evangelical fervor of a few Herron advocates. I greatly enjoyed both phono stages, but perceive no great advantage of one over the other unless someone needs the extra flexibility afforded by the Herron. Not to derail the thread--we can converse via private message if you are inclined--but I wondered if you could speak to whether the H1202 is much of a step up from the H1201? I have not read any reports of a comparison between the two so far, given the fairly recent release of the H1202. I am not assuming you have any prior experience with the H1201, but if so, I would appreciate your point of view. |
Not side by side, but I believe I can state pretty confidently that both the Herron and my Allnic are better phono stages than the PH7, which I've spend many an hour listening to at a friend's place. I can't claim it to be
unequivocal
truth, given that neither our systems nor our acoustic spaces are identical, but it is what my ears tell me. |
