Quick update if anyone catches this.
Oh my gosh! Got back from out of town yesterday and spent hours getting everything unpackaged and set up. Watched an episode of the Grand Tour just to ease myself in a bit. I was busy today getting caught up from being gone all week. I left them play Top Gear while I moving around. Just got finished with my list of "test" tracks.
I'm staggered at the sound. |
"After a recent hearing test I'm out at 15Khz"
Does that mean you have a hearing deficiency at that range? I can tell you, because i have hearing aids, that it does not matter which speakers you choose, if you have a hearing impairment. You will not hear the area in that frequency range. My hearing test and adjusted hearing aids made all the difference with the enjoyment of my simple audio system.
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"I bought a pair of P3ESR Sesames in black..."
*P3ESR SE in black |
@ cd318
"for those of us who are forced to spend long hours at our desks."
Isn’t the the truth. I’m kind of trying to turn my desk from somewhere I’m forced to be to where I want to be. I started working from home last year on Feb 3rd. Kinda living like hermit ever since. They shut our office down on March 13th. All my work was not constrained to my office location anyway. I had a meeting with my manager a few weeks ago to discuss me not going back, She is fine with that. I’m more connected now than before, fewer interruptions during the day, no commute, lunch is cheaper/easier, and a longer list of other benefits. Plus I can listen to what I want :D |
@desktopguy,
Thank you for that informative post.
Point number 2 is going to be crucial for those of us who are forced to spend long hours at our desks.
Both the Kef 103s and the ATC 12s are a little on the large side for my desk but I'm sure they'd be a big step up from the Dell 2.1 system I currently use.
I bet more than a few people will be looking at the Kef LS50 Wireless II as potential luxury PC speakers.
The OP must count himself fortunate to have such a large room for what might be a second system. |
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So I bought a pair of P3ESR Sesames in black last night, and went a little crazy and ordered an NAD M10 as well. I figure I spend about 90 hours a week sitting here so I might as well have what I want.
@ mfmncrew
Will do!
@ desktopguy(good name BTW)
The Q100s are pretty close, about 2" on the closest corner with a lot of toe-in, BUT they are front ported and I have an acoustic panel mounted on the wall behind them. Also, I’m be able to keep the Harbeths a bit further away since they are 2.75" less depends than the Q100s. A couple of things about the sub. I own 2 12" subs the Rythmik and an SVS SB-12, but I like the Rythmik more, I figured why not drop it in here. I have it crossed over at 80Hz and with the volume so low I actually very rarely "hear" them. The only times I know it even on is usually watching sci-fi, BladeRunner 2049 and the most recent season of The Expanse stand out in my memory.
I will say, I have been been ogling some matching small REL subs for the corners, but maybe that’s just dumb. |
I usually use the Ayre VX-5 Twenty (175 watts@4Ω, 350@8Ω) with KEF Reference 1s, but I briefly tried it with the LS50s. I was surprised how good that pairing sounded. I noticed the same thing when I switched from a Parasound A21 to A23 amp, the LS50 just didn’t sound the same. They seem to need a good amp to shine.
For practical purposes the LS50s have sufficient in-room bass for most music. Add a couple of subs, and you have a very nice full range setup. |
To O.P.: If you mentioned distance from back of speakers to back wall, I didn’t catch it. And that distance really matters in a small home office.
My home office is maybe 13’ x 13’, but a large double closet bump-out makes it more like 11’ x 13’. I’ve had 6 pairs of monitors here: started out w/3 pairs of powered monitors, but gave up on those. I’m on my 3rd pair of passives. I’ve always had a single sub (current sub is the excellent JLAudio e110).
I learned 3 important things in my system:
1 - Sealed/acoustic suspension speakers work way better than ported ones (the speakers are only ~1 ft from back wall, actually a large picture window w/blinds always down. All 3 passive monitors are sealed, and the bass seemed relatively unaffected by proximity of the back wall.
2 - Speakers that feature a musical/merciful upper midrange & treble are way easier to listen to hour after hour.
3 - And you needn’t look only for speakers advertised as nearfield speakers.
I really hit paydirt w/the passive ATC SCM12 Pro monitors. These sealed monitors are pretty big, but the sound is impressive: very good sound even at low volumes (that’s unusual), and when I crank it...wear a football helmet.
I just upgraded to a vintage pair of KEF 103.2 monitors--also sealed, even larger. They were never intended for nearfield use, but they are excellent in this office. Really fine sound. As amazing as the ATCs are here, I think I prefer these vintage KEFs. I cranked them for the 1st time yesterday and was astounded at how well they boogie. They also sound very good at low volumes, almost equalling the KEFs in that essential attribute. |
Please do keep us posted. If I ever come across a pair of The P3’s I will definitely give them a listen.
I have a similar (slightly larger) office setup. I have a Peachtree 125se running a pair of NOLA Boxer 2. I have not found the need to move a sub in there and I have one available to do that if I choose to. I stream Tidal and sometimes a track will distract me because I just feel “wow, that sounds good”. The Boxer 3 has an improved cabinet design over the 2 series. I am considering upgrading.
If you ever have a chance, give them a listen. |
Sounds good, and I hope they work well for you. |
I think I'm gonna go with the Harbeths honestly. Lots of love for them here and elsewhere, generally glowing professional reviews, someone pointed out earlier that they hold their value really well so _IF_ I can't get used to them I can recoup most of the outlay.
My other main options aren't going anywhere. The LS50s have been around and hugely popular for many years, readily available gently used. Also, at any time I can call Omega and have a pair of CAMs made in the veneer of my choice and even front ported, if I want.
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My final thought - happy hunting! Let us know what you get... |
@ coffee-jerk
Dynaudio Special 40s In red birch is a sexy beast. Kinda big though.
Does anybody have experience with them in nearfield at low volume?
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For anyone considering the LS50's. I have had them for a very long time with a lot of gear.
I believe you need about 100 watts for the LS50's to really open up. I have the following very small 100 - 150 watt desktop sized amps on them and they sound good to great. I have heard them at dealers with lesser powered amps and I was underwhelmed.
- Benchmark AHB2 (amazing)
- Pearchtree Nova 150. (The top end is a little bit recessed but for the price great.
- Parasound A23 (a warm amp)
Physically larger amps:
- Bryston 4BSST
- KRELL K-300i
- CODA CSiB
I have not tried my 2 AHB2's monos on the LS50 yet. I am now curious to hear that now given how great it sounded with the KRELL on the bass. |
I changed my small home office last year, best ever: it was the layout, listening triangle that made all the difference.
I ended up with a perfect 6’ listening triangle, the imaging is terrific.
Bookshelves opposite my desk, a 3 foot aisle between the front of the bookshelves and the front of my desk. Chair and 27" monitor dead center of the speakers. (3 foot aisle is snug, a larger room would allow a wider aisle)
True bookshelf speakers (fit 11-1/2" deep shelf, no ports). Horizontal at seated ear level.
Single sub at the end of the 3’ aisle, firing sideways, just a mono extension of the bass.. Volume: not aware of it unless I turn it off.
Center is phantom, so the monitor is not an issue. I stream a lot of video, the imaging is right on the center of the monitor.
I used 3 shelf high bookcase so I could put a vertical TT and Vertical R2R on top. Also, I use a Carver Cube Amp and other equipment that easily fit on a shallow shelf.
Also, if you go preamp to the sub first, sub strips the low bass out, send only upper bass, mids, highs to your amp and then to the bookshelf speakers, your amp needs less power, and the speakers don’t try to make low bass. Less needed power helps with cost, size, placement options, and the ability to use tubes with far less heat. |
I use ascend acoustic Sierra2ex in my small setup. They are a small mom and pop boutique brand, made in the USA. they are not only incredible sounding, but also beautiful.
Read the reviews! |
@ bobauch
I've looked at those and haver been seriously thinking about trying the LRS in my man cave. I have the space there to get them away from the wall. Can I ask how close you have the Minis from the wall behind?
My assumption is that they need space just like their bigger brothers. |
I appreciate all the suggestions.
@ antonio33
The Amphion Argon 1s were on my long list before I started trimming it down.
I'm not really a fan of the Klipsch sound. Years ago I considered some for my man cave and was able to listen to some. I'll say this about it, everyone says they have a live concert sound - imagine being at a concert for 15 hours a day.
@ soix
The Silverline Minuet Supreme Plus seem interesting. I'll have to look into those.
@ 10229
My man cave system currently sports a pair of Tannoy Rev XT 6.
@ coffee-jerk
Honestly, the ProAc were on my long list before I started trimming it down.
Dynaudio Special 40s now there is something I hadn't really considered. I need to look into these some more.
@ daveman2
The LS50s, a lot of people seem to mention them being power hungry. My personal, and admittedly relatively limited, experience makes me think a lot of people drastically over-judge power requirements in a lot of cases. One of my first amps was a 2.5 watt per channel MiniWatt and I mostly used with higher efficiency speakers but at lower volumes no issues. I'm sitting really close and listening to something all day. A dB meter app on my phone usually stays around 60 dB, a regular range would be high 50s to lower 60s. At 85dB sensitivity the LS50s, even if over estimated could not possibly need more than the 60 watts, even if over estimated, if I'm 40-ish inches away to hit a max of let's say 70dB. I realize there math and measurements with impedance swings etc, and I don't want to start a thing, but I just don't see needing a hugely powerful 100-watt-plus amp for a desk set up.
I will poke the bear a little more by saying I have considering upping to the NAD M10 or Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 to be able to play with room correction, but TDAI-1120 doesn't have the app/OS support that I want/need, and I feel like the M10 is basically just the Powernode 2i with Dirac and a screen, slight power bump aside. So is the M10 _REALLY_ worth more than twice the price of the Powernode 2i? I haven't made my mind up about that yet.
@ blainer55
I've looked into the power monitors a lot and just can't get there for a number of reason. Namely the dependance on in-built electronics and their quality, the inability to swap components, and the price bump of having to basically buy an amp every time I want to try a different speaker. Buchardt, ELAC Navis, LS50W etc
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I've had the Mini Magnepans for 6 years in a nearfield setup with a subwoofer. If your amp can drive a 4 ohm load then these should get consideration. They are outstanding .
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@blainer55 - Although an interesting suggestion, not really in the scope of the OP's request. I will comment, however. The Metas will work well nearfield or in a large room, as @yyzsantabarbara mentioned. |
You are close enough to take advantage of studio monitors which are well suited to near field listening. I have a powered set of Adam Audio A5x's on my desk. My musician son has the prior version with the matching sub. The A7 is a little larger. Nice clean accurate sound.
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This evening I played for the first time my KEF LS50 in my living room with 25+ foot ceilings and no furniture, except my sons toys. I hooked it up with my KRELL K-300i integrated which is a smooth operator with a lot of bass power. That is exactly what I got with the LS50's. The bass actually shocked me. I never knew that much bass was possible from the LS50.
When I had the very neutral Benchmark stack (DAC3B | HPA4 | AHB2) on the LS50's the sound was just like the gear. The neutral and clear. It was great in a small room.
The LS50 is a great speaker and will reward you when used with very good gear. I will always keep the LS50.
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OP - Want to chime in for the KEFs. I own a pair of KEF LS50 Metas, and although I have not heard your current Q100s, I had the original LS50s previously. The Metas are an amazing speaker, not just for the imaging, and are a worthwhile upgrade for v1 LS50 owners. They do so many things well, and do basically nothing poorly. IMO, it’s not ridiculous when audiophiles pair the Metas with $100k+ of front end gear - they are that good. Are there better speakers? Of course...
However, there are some caveats. I would not suggest them with your current amp. The Metas will need more power, and honestly a better quality amp, to sound their best. They are highly transparent, which means that they will not gloss over any flaws up (down?) the chain. Worded differently, they will expose the sound quality/signature of everything before them. If something else isn’t neutral, they’ll let you know.
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I apologize in advance for adding another brand that you didn’t ask about. I have a similar home office, but running ProAc Response 1sc, and a REL sub. I also have a pair of of Response 2d, which are more revealing and “impressive”. Tried both in the office and ended up preferring the 1sc, as they are more enjoyable at low volume. The warm balance is great for the office. Very satisfying and non-fatiguing. I have been tempted to try another speaker, but concerned they would be fatiguing. Dynaudio Special 40’s would be another good “office speaker” IMHO. |
Maybe Tannoy Autograph Mini or Wharfedale Denton 85. The tiny Tannoys are a teensy bit big perhaps but sound so sweet and smooth when dialed in just right. |
The Silverline Minuet Supreme Plus is a great little speaker — very balanced and natural sounding — and only costs $700/pr new. Best of luck.
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I would discount the Kef's, you are far to close, and they would be fatiguing in my opinion, The Harbeths would work if you like the sound, Amphion Argon 1 would also be on my list. Two other speakers that you can purchase cheaper than here in the uk, Klipsch RP600's, maybe a little bit to much if you're working and I've never heard a pair of Revels that I have not liked.
Good luck in your search. |
You are not wrong new tweeters do not play highs in a natural fashion they wash out in the highs to get natural highs you need an uncompressed tweeter from a good vintage speaker they play unforced natural highs that respond to the music in a natural tonal fashion.
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I just measured the distance from my ears to the tweeter agin and it was about 44 inches. I could sit a little closer or a little further away. The Kefs do off axis really well. I have the Q100s toed in to basically pointing at my shoulders.
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I have the Harbeth P3ESR in my computer room with a Power Sound Audio S1500 sub (total overkill). The speakers are about 3 1/2 feet from my listening position. I have not heard the others you mentioned, but have KEF Ref 1 in my main system. The Harbeths give the Ref 1's a run for their money, and in many ways sound better in terms of detail and being more balanced and natural sounding, they just don't have the scale or the imaging of the KEFs, but are perfect for the setup they are in. If you're that close to the speakers, imaging is less of an issue. In terms of imaging, it's going to kind of suck no matter what you do, it'll be more like listening to headphones than a well placed set of speakers. |
@donvito
I have one of those gigantic hand magnets. I have read people have a hard time getting the grills off "normally".
@arafiq
The Q100s image like crazy that is one of the things I most like about them. I figure that is due to the uni-Q driver set and the LS50s would be the same. The brightness you mention may be the main reason I'm looking for something.
I'm really looking for a thick rich midrange which by all accounts the Harbeths and Omegas excel at although in different ways, I suppose.
Musical tastes are pretty varied I guess. No EDM, no Metal, No Jazz, No Classical, No Modern Country. Very, very little current indie pop, mostly listen to Classic and Indie Rock.
I've already have a sub in the system. Currently using a Rythmik F12 but started out with an SVS SB-12 NSD. |
Between KEF LS50 and Harbeth P3esr, it will come down to your preferences in music, as well as what you prioritize in terms of sound signature. KEF is an imaging champion, so if that's what you want in your music, I'd go for the LS50. I owned the LS50 wireless version and really liked them. Crystal clear highs, excellent imaging, the music will come to you as if you're sitting in the first row. However, I found it to be a bit lean sounding, especially in the mid bass region. Also, it can sometimes sound bright depending on the recording.
Harbeth P3esrs (which are a mainstay in my home office system) are the ones that I didn't like much when I first bought them. But, man, do they grow on you once your ears adjust to their sound signature. Very balanced top to bottom, with a midrange to die for. The vocals are about as good as you're going to get in a speaker of this size. I don't know how Harbeth does it, but the way they present vocals has something so natural and satisfying about it, as if the singer is present in your room. They are a sealed design, so placement will be easier compared to the KEFs. Now on the down side, the P3esr's start to fall apart if you dare to go above moderate listening levels. All the magic that makes them so good seems to evaporate. They're also not the most dynamic speaker out there. So if this is something you care about, I would look at the LS50s. And lastly, I felt that the LS50s were more of an all rounder when it comes to casting a wider net for multiple music genres. The Harbeths will do exceedingly well on jazz, vocals, acoustics, classic rock, etc. But yeah, they'll fall apart if you lean towards EDM or heavy metal. You are going to need a small, musical sub (e.g. REL T/Zero or T-5i) to augment the bottom end on either one though.
Hope this helps.
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Honestly, I am feeling the Harbeths. I want to try them at least. |
Second the motion, especially since you're using a sub.
They hold their value better than your other choices.
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