Have you ever used a separate speaker selector unit to audition speakers? Would you?

@br3098 You succinctly captured what I thought was the argument for the selector as one point of comparison. I’m still curious to try it, though I see better why it might not help much.

One line of argument against it has to do with whether or not fast judgments are helpful. Some here argue they’re not. You say they can be (and this was my experience, too, but I’m questioning it).

But another line of argument against it has to do with the effect of the selector box on the speakers.

Just for the sake of argument, I can imagine a scenario where it doesn’t help or even hurts.

Consider a comparison between Speaker brand A and brand B using a selector.
In this example, imagine that Speaker A is greatly affected (obscured, masked, distorted) by the selector electronics but Speaker B is not. Voilà! What seems like a neutral test is actually making the comparison worse. The assumption was that the selector would affect each speaker the same amount, but that was a wrong assumption. (Imagine feeding the same amount of sugar to a diabetic and a non-diabetic. Should have the same effect, right? No, it shouldn’t because they start from different positions.)

It sounds like you have a lot of experience selling speakers over the years. Is the example I am offering here far-fetched? Happy to be corrected if so, but it seems plausible in theory.

For those of you with a myriad of arguments against using a GOOD speaker selector I say great, don't use one. I find it almost essential for making A/B comparisons. No, there is no free lunch so you have to do some work, like figuring out how to level match each and every pair of speakers.

I don't think I or anyone ever said that a speaker selector was the ONLY method that should be used. Every audio component requires a long-term test. But, audio memory being what it is (generally poor, despite what you may believe) this is the only way to hear glaring changes in their raw state. Is that valid? Sure, as one data point.

Are selector switches a weak link? Maybe, but I don't think that a GOOD selector box color the sound. At least I, my former customers and distributors never mentioned it if they did. But as @ aburnhamuu45 mentioned above if both speakers are wired through the same selector what's the difference? You are evaluating the delta between two equalized sources. Your long term test (without the selector) will provide your sound baseline evaluation.

@aburn Well, that is one key point of contention, and you can see I've pointed to it a couple times in previous posts. You can also see different arguments for and against the usefulness of the proposal. Rather than rehash that material, I would just suggest reading the thread from the beginning.

Since BOTH speakers go through the unit, a comparison would still be valid.

@rrcpa I'm convinced. 

DON’T WASTE YOUR MONEY. I tried it and this is what I learned.
I have a Bryston box and as those things go it’s as good as any but... they all are an abomination. After spending ridiculous amount of money on cabling, you are going to introduce one of these absolute sonic weak links into the signal path?
Why would you want to run your signal through one of those and make a judgement call when you wouldn’t want to run your signal through it all the time?
Besides, there is no way to make meaningful judgements A/B ing speakers. You have to listen for extended periods.
Take two minutes and swap the cables. Your ears will thank you and you’ll save money to boot. My .02

I have been using an OSD ATM-7 for a couple of years, with its remote you can switch up to 7 pairs of speakers and 2 amps. Great for comparing speakers instantly from your listening position.

@miller Hearing your comment as not snarky. Thank you.
I had supposed that if I narrowed speakers down to fairly similar types, the quick switch would be one additional tool to help make some distinctions.

I thought in the past that I had gained *something* by switching, but I would be willing to stipulate that I was not really learning what I thought I was learning. I may learn something by supposing I was mistaken.

You are saying that there is absolutely nothing to gain by using this kind of comparison.

The only question left, it seems, is for anyone else reading this thread, still: Did YOU learn anything by quick switching? 

Serious point, nowhere near as snarky as it sounds, but when if ever you do get around to actually comparing speakers you will find they are so different in so many ways the whole idea of switching back and forth will seem silly. This is because the range of sonic attributes is essentially endless. Pick any one or two or ten and you can flip back and forth oh this one no that one. But is this anything like what you do when you listen to music? Sure hope not. More likely what you really want is to be carried away. So how are you gonna evaluate that flipping back and forth? Right. You’re not. Can’t.

So why even try?

@twoleftears 
I think it does level the playing field. However, what I take is being asserted as common wisdom means that is not so important.

This is what I gather the common wisdom is:

(a) speaker selectors degrade the sound. The question becomes "how much"? If they don't degrade either too much, then there is something to be learned by using the selector as *one factor.* (We have all compared this way, and I know from my experience that I heard some differences of a general kind worth heeding.)

(b) longer term listening is the primary way to make the comparative judgment. This kind of critical listening takes practice and patience and should not be sidelined by the urge to switch quickly.

(c) longer term listening renders sufficiently solid judgments that it makes what can be learned by quick switching negligible.

If it's just being used to audition/compare speakers, rather than use them in-house long-term, if the different speakers are all hooked up to it, doesn't that level the playing-field?

@ebm I think we’re agreed on that.

This will certainly degrade the entire sound.

@dbphd Is this what you mean? https://sites.google.com/view/pine-tree-audio/devices/transparent-selector

Thanks, @jetter  I do think you're right -- it's another tool to use. I guess what I've learned is that it's not to be considered a primary tool. 
That said, I have read some interesting things about the ephemerality of aural memory from sources which are bona fide scientific and rigorous. It's not just me, questioning what I just heard. It's well-documented that aural memory is subject to many physical and mental sources of error.

hilde45, if you can purchase a good switcher at a reasonable price I can't see how using it, along with other means of evaluating speakers, is anything but another tool to help.  I don't think there are many audiophiles who don't understand the emphasized treble and bass routine at this stage of their audio lives, so to bring that up is a bit elementary.  Also, hearing the nuances of the sound of one speaker in near time proximity of another can be interesting and informative.

I do whole heartedly agree that long term listening will always tell how wise a choice you made.

Lastly, you do not get your feathers ruffled to easily the insinuation was there.  You are very diplomatic.

What about switching between amps driving a single speaker?  I use an Ayre VX-5 Twenty stereo amp to drive KEF Reference 1s, but would like be able to switch easily to Cary single-ended monoblocks on occasion.  Any recommended switches for that? 

I have more or less accepted the answer that "quick switching" is not the way to go.
By accident, I heard this said this morning by Hans Beekhuyzen — don't switch quickly to evaluate speakers.
https://youtu.be/idxT7VVYyxo?t=523 

I have only experienced a switcher in a store.

My general concern with "A" vs "B" comparisons is when listening to music our brains can 'color' the sound by adding memories to the equation.  Therefore, I've been more inclined to be introspective on what I hear and how I feel during the listening.  

And in the end I believe most of us like listening to music so I am comfortable with my decision being my decision because I'm sure that with enough time and effort I could realize my decision was merely good versus the 'best'.

In other words, enjoy your process!

@teo_audio Thanks for this sensible comment, which echoes others:

If you find that you can’t tell the differences between the two, unless you had a switcher for instantaneous switching, then they are close sounding to one another.... close enough that it’s in the ’six of one, half dozen of the other’ kind of category.

@miller Thank you for this answer. I have a better sense now of why you made your first comment, and perhaps I let my feathers get ruffled too easily.

The cumulative voices against the switch are mounting, and I didn't intend for it to *replace* deep and patient listening; I meant for it to be an *additional* avenue of comparison. Wanted to make that clear. 

One detail of your story reminded me of my initial cause for posting:

 I had driven 200 miles. Okay I will try without the magic switch. Listened a few minutes to their wire. Okay, pause, put mine in. Instantly, and I mean so fast I hadn't time to sit down, it sounded like I broke the guys expensive tube amp. I could hardly believe. My wife was there too and she could hardly believe it herself.

Because I don't want to damage my tube amps, I don't have a chance to do what was part of your own story -- the fast switch, "so fast I hadn't had time to sit down." I'm not going to do that with my amp, so I have to hope that switching slowly is sufficient to hear all the differences I need to hear. And you -- and others -- have attested to that. So, that's what I'll do.

Yes, one possibility here is that I'm just stupid. But another is that you tend to rush through experiences or don't pay enough attention to realize they are complex. To a gourmand, all food can be gobbled up quickly. But I've read other comments you've made in other places and know that you are a careful listener. Why not draw on that experience and contribute something you've learned to this topic rather than finding a way to demean the question -- and the questioner?

Pretty sure you meant to say glutton. A gourmand will take his time because he enjoys eating. Gluttons gobble. Gourmonds savor. Just a little too much is all. 

All you have done is buy into the same evanescent memory trap as so many others. Its easy to do- at a keyboard. The minute you step away from the keyboard, and actually go and listen, that is when you learn what is what. Once you do it blows the blather away in an instant. 

Like if you read back far enough in my posts this will be about the third or fourth time relating this, the story of back when I believed the evanescent memory blather. I drove 200 miles to where they had just the magic switch you seek. Because surely whatever slight difference there might be between interconnects had to be so miniscule no one could possibly be sure or remember unless switching back and forth fast and often. 

When I got there the magic switch was broken. I had driven 200 miles. Okay I will try without the magic switch. Listened a few minutes to their wire. Okay, pause, put mine in. Instantly, and I mean so fast I hadn't time to sit down, it sounded like I broke the guys expensive tube amp. I could hardly believe. My wife was there too and she could hardly believe it herself. 

There's a million things to say about how to listen. But really its not how to listen, you already do that just fine yourself. Everyone does. Only reason we're here is a million ancestors heard the twig snap and froze or hid or ran or fought. But they heard the twig snap. So you hear just fine. What you need is the language to understand and describe what you are hearing. This you only learn by actually taking the time to listen and compare. Which sad to say cannot be done at a keyboard. 

The differences between interconnects are obvious and easy to hear. The differences between speakers are obvious and easy to hear on steroids. 

Go and listen. You will see. 

in most cases, for most people, sonic memory is good enough, long enough... so that no switching device is required.

If you find that you can’t tell the differences between the two, unless you had a switcher for instantaneous switching, then they are close sounding to one another.... close enough that it’s in the ’six of one, half dozen of the other’ kind of category.

I submit that your ears, and recall... are very very likely to be good enough so that there is never any switcher required to get this sort of decision off the ground, after a few back-and-forths....

In many hundreds of speaker comparisons, I’ve never felt a need to arise for a switch-box. As 99.99% (of course that is an exact percentage! right...) of all ’different models and brands’ of speakers are so different, so obviously different, that no switcher could ever be of any fundamental use.

If I was tuning crossovers as a comparison to the original lab calibration sample speaker... THEN a switcher would be... quite possibly... critical. But then, burn in of the production sample vs the lab sample rears it’s head and you’ve got a difference and a mess again.

@b_limo 
Sometimes you don’t appreciate or understand a speaker until you’ve listened to it for a week or two.  

+1 
Agreed.

 

@david_ten Thanks. I get it more, now. I'll establish placement for each speaker, mark it, and make sure that nothing extraneous gets in the way.

There are all kinds of obstacles to a perfect comparison -- how long it takes to get used to things, burn in, placement, etc. Either those obstacles are great enough to indicate no point in comparing or they're minor enough so that there is something to be learned by comparing.

I'm going to assume there's something to be learned and do the best I can. (I also think this will be a pleasurable experience.)

If I hear no difference, I choose on other factors. But whatever happens, I'm the sort of person who wants to go through a process before making a final decision, even if that process will be less than ideal.

@hilde45 That’s the point catdoorman and b_limo were making.

First, you will need to find the ’workable’ / ’close to best’ placement for each speaker and evaluate each in the specific positions each sound ’best’ to you.

Second, ideally, the speakers not being evaluated should be moved out of the space so the physical presence is not a factor (for the non-active speaker).

You will also likely have your ’original’ speakers set up to your preferences and optimized via component / cabling etc. synergies based on your choices. That may not transfer over to the second and third, and.. speaker being evaluated.

Listening positions may also need to be adjusted / changed.

There is more...

It gets tricky. : )

@david_ten and @catdoorman - I was thinking I'd just pop one set off the stands, put them on the floor, and put set #2 on the stands in their place. Exact same placement for the comparison. Perhaps different speakers need different placements -- granted. In that case, I'd have a second set of stands ready to go.

+1 re. @b_limo  and @cat_doorman 's point on speaker placement.

I would be more concerned about placement than switching. I recently tried my old speakers again after setting up new ones for the last several weeks to try out. The new ones ended up set a littler wider with less toe in but about the same distance from the wall so I thought maybe I could sneak the old ones just inside of them and it would be about the way they were. Either I was wearing rose colored earplugs when thinking back to how they old speakers sounded or the placement was more of an issue than waiting 5 minutes and crawling around on the floor to change the cables over. To position them correctly I would need to move the new speakers, but since this was just supposed to be a quick check to remind myself of some of the differences it wasn't worth the effort to me.

I think I'm cured of trying to setup 2 sets of speakers at a time to compare them. The potential damage to amps or switchbox noise is really secondary.  

@miller My effort to find a way to do careful and detailed analyses of complex phenomena does not stem from my inability to "think it through." Rather than imply I'm being obtuse, you could either just report that *you* never needed to do or perhaps suggest ways that you compare things.

Ask yourself, if you really can't remember, then why would you care? If you have no memory of something better, how can anything be worse? Seriously. Think it through. Why would you care?

Yes, one possibility here is that I'm just stupid. But another is that you tend to rush through experiences or don't pay enough attention to realize they are complex. To a gourmand, all food can be gobbled up quickly. But I've read other comments you've made in other places and know that you are a careful listener. Why not draw on that experience and contribute something you've learned to this topic rather than finding a way to demean the question -- and the questioner? 

Anyone concerned about not being able to compare or judge because they will forget what they heard in a few minutes should stop and think about that. Ask yourself, if you really can't remember, then why would you care?

That isn't the issue, the problem is you have no music in the hour(s) that wait for the tube amp to cool down and warm up.
A high quantity speaker A/B switcher is the solution, but you have to make sure the tube amp output is connected to a load at all time while power on.
A safe way to swap is mute the input, if the switcher is on speaker A, select A+B first then change to speaker B, so the tube amp will be loaded while swapping speakers.

 "I have a tube amp that requires shut down, short break, between speaker changes"

What is the reason for the shut down?

The reason is he doesn't want to fry his amp which is what will happen disconnecting speakers with it turned on.


Meanwhile....   

Anyone concerned about not being able to compare or judge because they will forget what they heard in a few minutes should stop and think about that. Ask yourself, if you really can't remember, then why would you care? If you have no memory of something better, how can anything be worse? Seriously. Think it through. Why would you care? 

Look at it another way. If the difference isn't big enough to be sure, how could it possibly be worth paying for? Might as well buy the pretty ones. Which if you can't remember, probably what you're gonna do anyway. So why bother?

For convenience, absolutely.

For differences that are so subtle / minor, yes...as I believe time and memory are not always on friendly terms.

For retail or industry reasons, yes.

Etc.

I believe learning to ’hear’ ’listen’ with greater accuracy and differentiation is valuable and worthwhile (both as pursuit and goal) and has been incredibly rewarding for me. Working on this has helped me dig much deeper into our hobby, understand it better, and has made it much more enjoyable.

If the box helps you do that, go for it...push yourself to make it more than simply a tool to compare speakers.

I have the Adcom. It allows 3 pairs of speakers to be switched from one amp. 

Look, no one would put a switch box in the signal path for no reason. But if you need to compare gear it’s a much better way than powering up and down and swapping cables.

This is the only reason I would put a switch box in -- to try to make a comparison. Then, I’d set it aside. Regarding @b_limo point about variables — the idea would be to use the same cable and keep the other elements as similar as possible (positioning, room, etc.) It might be necessary to quickly move the speaker being auditioned around a bit — but that can be quickly done, compared to the amp on and off rigamarole.

Of course, if the switch box isn’t high quality, then I could be degrading the sound too much for both speakers and erasing important details which would be crucial to their character — and their difference.

It seems this is another debate that rests upon empirical details not fully definite -- which speakers, which switch box, etc. I don't have the speakers yet, so this is impossible to detail, yet. I'm trying to decide on buying a switch box.

Another option is for me to get a switch box and try both. If I hear no degradation of sound with the switch box on either speaker, I can go ahead and compare them.

Yeah. Don't.

Nonsense. Or maybe true if you are using a cheap switch. Niles, anyone?

A good selector switch is really a set of time adjusted relays that have little or no effect on the signal pass through them. I own and have used a Luxman AS-50R selector w/ remote for years and cannot hear it in the system. Proper placement and wiring is crucial. I think I paid just under $200 plus shipping from Japan on eBay several years ago.

Luxman makes several models, all good, but it's a lot easier and less disruptive to switch from your listening position. Van Alstine also makes a very good unit (ABX Switch Comparator).

These two companies also make good unbalanced (RCA) line level switch boxes. And Manley is making the Skipjack line level switch again, as I recall.

Look, no one would put a switch box in the signal path for no reason. But if you need to compare gear it's a much better way than powering up and down and swapping cables.

@hilde45  "I have a tube amp that requires shut down, short break, between speaker changes"

@tablejockey "What is the reason for the shut down?"

OP runs tube amps.  Not a good idea to hot-disconnect and operate a valve/tube amplifier without a load. Without a load on the secondary, the output transformer primary presents a high impedance load to the output tubes, resulting in higher-than-normal voltages that can damage the tubes and/or transformer. Damage is likely if you operate the amplifier with a large input signal but no load. Might get away with it if there is no input signal and not recommended for most tube amps.  

You are correct about the amps.  Five minutes at minimum is a good starting point.  

@b_limo Thanks for giving a reason and not just an opinion.
@tablejockey I've been instructed not to turn tube amps off and then immediately back on but to give them a couple minutes. Folks have reported burning out rectifiers doing this.

Variables.  Different speaker cable, different positioning, not giving your speakers enough room to breathe...  one pair might sound better closer to the wall, wider spacing, less toe in...  
possible negative results due to one pair moving the drivers on the pair not in use?

   "I have a tube amp that requires shut down, short break, between speaker changes"

What is the reason for the shut down? 

I have! Jafco, 1974.

Any thoughts about auditioning speakers at home with a speaker selector box? 

Yeah. Don't.